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Topic: Difficulty Roasting Guatemala Fraijanes - Finca Agua Tibia (8 msgs / 517 lines)
1) From: Stephen Carey
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Alex, hi there.  You don't give us the roast profile.  I have a new - 
only 8 or 9 roasts on it - IR2 also.  If you give me the profile I 
would be happy to run it the same way and see what we come up with, 
which, in theory (someone correct me if I am wrong on this) should 
give us more information about your machine and profile for this bean.
If not that, at least seeing the profile would help, also knowing how 
far into the roast the first crack came is a help to figuring this 
out.  I don't have enough experience to just give you something off 
the top of my head, sorry.
I am not sure that me roasting the same profile will help either, but 
let's see what the others have to say about it.  I am guessing that 
there may be a way of deducing the correct profile via a comparison 
of the two roasts.  However, it is more than likely that if you send 
out the profile of the roast, the first crack time, and anything else 
that went on your log the folks here will certainly figure it out.
This is funny, for this was my planned roast for Sunday anyway.
Let me know.  All the best.
Stephen
At 08:06 PM 8/3/2007, you wrote:
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Alex, hi there.  You don't give us the roast
profile.  I have a new - only 8 or 9 roasts on it - IR2 also. 
If you give me the profile I would be happy to run it the same way and
see what we come up with, which, in theory (someone correct me if I am
wrong on this) should give us more information about your machine and
profile for this bean.  
If not that, at least seeing the profile would help, also knowing how far
into the roast the first crack came is a help to figuring this out. 
I don't have enough experience to just give you something off the top of
my head, sorry.  
I am not sure that me roasting the same profile will help either, but
let's see what the others have to say about it.  I am guessing that
there may be a way of deducing the correct profile via a comparison of
the two roasts.  However, it is more than likely that if you send
out the profile of the roast, the first crack time, and anything else
that went on  your log the folks here will certainly figure it
out.
This is funny, for this was my planned roast for Sunday anyway.
Let me know.  All the best.
Stephen
At 08:06 PM 8/3/2007, you wrote:
I'm pretty new to roasting, and
have been using an iRoast 2 for my roasting. I've just completed my third
roast of Sweet Marias' Guatemala Fraijanes - Finca Agua Tibia. While I
haven't yet sampled the latest roast, my first two roasts were
incongruous with the reviews on the site. I'm really not sure why. Am I
roasting too warm? Too long? Am I not sorting the beans correctly? Did I
just get a bad bag? I honestly don't know.
The first two roasts were city and city+, and both yielded a sharp taste
with a hint of cardamom. Not bad, but not nearly as enjoyable as my
previous origins (a Oaxacan and a Tanzanian). I have noticed that this
Guatemalan shed its chaff very late in the roasting process by
comparison. It also didn't darken nearly as much, though maintained much
of the darker roast character that I would expect for the time and
temperatures I'd selected.
With this latest roast, I found that it didn't roast very evenly, with
some beans so light as to be almost an institutional roast (if that's the
term), and some dark enough that I'd call them French. I stopped this
roast immediately after first crack settled down, whereas the previous
two were stopped at or around 2nd crack. The prior roasts evened up in
color after the first crack. When cooling the beans in a colander over a
fan, I noticed about 15 misshapen beans, some of which screamed
"Modern Art". There were also about 20 very small, nearly
spherical beans which I could only guess are plinkers. I hadn't noticed
them before, but then again hadn't payed that much attention. Is this
frequency normal for this origin (1 cup when green)? Am I being too
picky?
I'm afraid I don't have a thermocouple or other thermometer to gather
temperatures other than I input into the unit. I've been using Tom's
recommended profile (the second roast I extended to try to get to the
darker colors on this origin), but I know that doesn't mean much given
the variability between units, as well as environmental
considerations.
Anyone have an idea what I've done wrong?
Thanks
Alex
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2) From: Stephen Carey
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Alex, hi there.  You don't give us the roast profile.  I have a new - 
only 8 or 9 roasts on it - IR2 also.  If you give me the profile I 
would be happy to run it the same way and see what we come up with, 
which, in theory (someone correct me if I am wrong on this) should 
give us more information about your machine and profile for this bean.
If not that, at least seeing the profile would help, also knowing how 
far into the roast the first crack came is a help to figuring this 
out.  I don't have enough experience to just give you something off 
the top of my head, sorry.
I am not sure that me roasting the same profile will help either, but 
let's see what the others have to say about it.  I am guessing that 
there may be a way of deducing the correct profile via a comparison 
of the two roasts.  However, it is more than likely that if you send 
out the profile of the roast, the first crack time, and anything else 
that went on your log the folks here will certainly figure it out.
This is funny, for this was my planned roast for Sunday anyway.
Let me know.  All the best.
Stephen
At 08:06 PM 8/3/2007, you wrote:
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Alex, hi there.  You don't give us the roast
profile.  I have a new - only 8 or 9 roasts on it - IR2 also. 
If you give me the profile I would be happy to run it the same way and
see what we come up with, which, in theory (someone correct me if I am
wrong on this) should give us more information about your machine and
profile for this bean.  
If not that, at least seeing the profile would help, also knowing how far
into the roast the first crack came is a help to figuring this out. 
I don't have enough experience to just give you something off the top of
my head, sorry.  
I am not sure that me roasting the same profile will help either, but
let's see what the others have to say about it.  I am guessing that
there may be a way of deducing the correct profile via a comparison of
the two roasts.  However, it is more than likely that if you send
out the profile of the roast, the first crack time, and anything else
that went on your log the folks here will certainly figure it
out.
This is funny, for this was my planned roast for Sunday anyway.
Let me know.  All the best.
Stephen
At 08:06 PM 8/3/2007, you wrote:
I'm pretty new to roasting, and
have been using an iRoast 2 for my roasting. I've just completed my third
roast of Sweet Marias' Guatemala Fraijanes - Finca Agua Tibia. While I
haven't yet sampled the latest roast, my first two roasts were
incongruous with the reviews on the site. I'm really not sure why. Am I
roasting too warm? Too long? Am I not sorting the beans correctly? Did I
just get a bad bag? I honestly don't know.
The first two roasts were city and city+, and both yielded a sharp taste
with a hint of cardamom. Not bad, but not nearly as enjoyable as my
previous origins (a Oaxacan and a Tanzanian). I have noticed that this
Guatemalan shed its chaff very late in the roasting process by
comparison. It also didn't darken nearly as much, though maintained much
of the darker roast character that I would expect for the time and
temperatures I'd selected.
With this latest roast, I found that it didn't roast very evenly, with
some beans so light as to be almost an institutional roast (if that's the
term), and some dark enough that I'd call them French. I stopped this
roast immediately after first crack settled down, whereas the previous
two were stopped at or around 2nd crack. The prior roasts evened up in
color after the first crack. When cooling the beans in a colander over a
fan, I noticed about 15 misshapen beans, some of which screamed
"Modern Art". There were also about 20 very small, nearly
spherical beans which I could only guess are plinkers. I hadn't noticed
them before, but then again hadn't payed that much attention. Is this
frequency normal for this origin (1 cup when green)? Am I being too
picky?
I'm afraid I don't have a thermocouple or other thermometer to gather
temperatures other than I input into the unit. I've been using Tom's
recommended profile (the second roast I extended to try to get to the
darker colors on this origin), but I know that doesn't mean much given
the variability between units, as well as environmental
considerations.
Anyone have an idea what I've done wrong?
Thanks
Alex
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3) From: Eddie Dove
Alex,
I know you have posted before, but I want to welcome you ... WELCOME!
Disclaimer: I have never owned an IRoast.
"Am I not sorting the beans correctly?"
I never sort the beans, so I don't know that this is the problem.
"Did I just get a bad bag?"
I have never gotten a bad bag of coffee and so far I have roasted ~432
pounds of Sweet Maria's Coffee, so I don't know that this is the
problem.
Without knowing some specifics of your roast (time to 1st crack, total
length of roast, etc), I would think that this bean might very well
excel at a Full City - Full City+ roast in your type of roaster.  This
bean has been a crowd pleaser in my experience, but I roast in a Gene
Cafe and RK Drum; I have found that most like it a bit darker than the
City/City+.
"With this latest roast, I found that it didn't roast very evenly,
with some beans so light as to be almost an institutional roast (if
that's the term), and some dark enough that I'd call them French."
This I have not experience and may be indicative of something specific
to the IRoast.  I do hope someone familiar with the IRoast and this
bean can proffer some assistance.
Please let us know your results.
Have a great weekend.
Respectfully,
Eddie
-- 
Vita non est vivere sed valere vita est
Roasting Blog and Profiles for the Gene Cafehttp://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/

4) From: Les
The Aqua Tibia has a narrow sweet spot.  I have not air roasted it, but it
does like a good stretch after 1st crack.  You want to stay out of second
crack.  You want to ramp up fast to the straw colored stage and then begin
to slow things down.  I have not roasted with an I-Roast before, but I think
you have more control over your roast than  other air roasters.  You want to
pull this one just before second crack.
This coffee isn't one that is good at a lighter roast.  The sharpness you
are talking about is an under development of the carmelization.  You also
need to stretch that time after 1st to burn off some of those bitter
volatiles.  Once you hit the sweetspot on this one, it is awesome.  Try for
a good full city.
Les

5) From: Kevin
Les,
From my experience with the Agua Tibia, your instructions are spot on.  I'd
also add that the body and flavor begin to round out and really tickle one's
palate after ~4 days rest.  I wasn't crazy out this coffee until I tried it
4 days out, then BAM!  The chocolate with a hint of green apple was right
there.
Kevin

6) From: Alex Koreneff
I've run out of the Guatemala Fraijanes - Finca Agua Tibia but am
interested in learning what I did wrong.
Here's the roast profiles I used:
0:00 Start Roast @350F duration 2 minutes
2:00 Increase to 400F duration 3 minutes
5:00 Increase to 460F duration 4 min 30 sec
6:00 first crack
8:00 chaffing reaches peak
9:25 second crack
9:30 cooling starts
yielded a low body roast that looked very light given the time and
temperature, hints of pepper and cardamom. Over the week I drank it, it
got more and more sour, ending as distinctly soapy (no, i wasn't tasting
actual soap)
0:00 Start Roast @350F duration 2 minutes
2:15 Increase to 400F duration 3 minutes
5:30 Increase to 460F duration 4 min 30 sec
6:00 first crack
7:30 chaffing reaches peak
8:00 second crack
9:45 visible oiling on the beans
10:00 cooling starts
yielded a medium body roast, with a hint of the earlier cardamom. The
color was only slightly darker than the previous roast. The soapy taste
was back, and got stronger with each cup. I ended up drinking only half
of this batch.
0:00 Start Roast @350F duration 2 minutes
2:00 Increase to 400F duration 3 minutes
5:00 Increase to 460F duration 4 min 30 sec
6:05 first crack
7:15 cooling starts
7:20 chaffing reaches peak
This yielded an uneven, mostly light roast with several French-dark
beans (mostly plinkers, which have been removed). After 18 hours' rest,
the soapy note is still present, though much reduced. The coffee is very
bright, with hints of clove, cardamom, and something else i can't put my
finger on. By far, this is the best roast of the three (for this
origin), but I'm still not particularly happy.
For reference, that last profile yielded a French roast from Mexico FTO
Oaxaca Pluma which, while too dark for my tastes, made a fantastic
dessert coffee when mixed with ample half and half and sugar. This
combination with the Oaxaca was something my girlfriend (the lifelong
coffee hater) couldn't get enough of.
In case you're wondering, I use Austin city water that I run through two
Brita filters. This seems to remove the nastiness and restore an
extremely light, neutral taste to the water, which actually seems less
colored than Sparkletts, Avian, or other bottled waters.
I use a Bodum C-mill whirley grinder to grind the beans very fine,
though not to dust. I then brew using a Keurig machine, and gently spoon
my fresh grounds into the metal screen k-cup, to 1/8th of an inch of the
top. As long as I don't overfill, this results in a very repeatable cup.
If I do overfill, I get espresso.
I used to use a Cuisenart-built conical drip brewer (gold screen filter,
though occasionally I'd break out the Chemex unbleached paper), but
found that its batch size resulted in major taste differences from one
cup to the next, even after stirring the caraffe.  I'm the only one in
the house interested in good coffee (my girlfriend refuses to make any
but will mooch, and my roommate refuses to touch anything that isn't
Maxwell House), so the single-serve portions of the Keurig work out well
for me. I clean without soap (scrub with water only every day, then use
cleancaf weekly). My grinder is cleaned before every grind by using a
coffee-only paintbrush.
I tend to drink my coffee with a little sugar and probably too much
half-and-half - the combination mellows out the coffee while still
allowing a lot of very enjoyable coffee flavors.
Oddly enough, I've found that I very much like the change in taste and
texture that comes with stirring a little bit of coffee dust (from the
top of the grinder) into each cup.
(resent, as it didn't appear to go through the first time)
Stephen Carey wrote:
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7) From: Stephen Carey
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Alex, it sounds like Les really knows this coffee.  With the idea of 
ramping up fast, then a good place to start is the first stage of the 
second preset on your machine.  That will get you the heat you 
need.  Then you may want to alter the preset on its second cycle and 
bring it down so you can get to the first crack, but stay away from 
the second crack.
The same may hold for the third cycle, you may want to shorten it, 
ramp back up to burn off the volatiles Les mentions.  Just keep it 
short so you don't hit the second crack.
I will say, that with my IR2 burning about 20F higher than it says on 
the display I had to play with the preset a lot, but it still gave me 
a good starting spot.
One recipe that was on this list or was referenced on this list went 
like this, maybe someone can comment if it would work for this bean:
1st cycle: 350 for 2 minutes; 2nd cycle: 400 for 3 minutes; 3rd 
cycle: 450 for between 4 to 6 minutes (this is where you have to 
play. In theory the 6 minutes should take you to the door of the 2nd 
crack, but it took mine almost to French.  You may want to do a batch 
with the last cycle at 4 and go from there and dial in.)
Again, I got this from this list and it has helped me a lot.  Knowing 
what my machine actually runs at now helps even more, but when I 
first used it I didn't know the difference from the temperature and 
the display on the machine.  But, I played with times first to see 
what I could come up with and it worked.  Once I got the thermometer 
- with the wire which goes into the chamber and beans - I was better 
able to build from this recipe.
All of mine have been with 5 to 5.5 ounce shots in the chamber, when 
using this profile.
If the first cycle is too low to bring you to the temp you need for 
the second cycle to be right on, you could raise cycle one to 375, 
which was suggested to me on another site.  But, just a heads up, for 
me, as many have warned here, changing too many things at once is 
tough.  I ended up using my senses more and more, then played with 
time more than temperature as a beginner.  I have been given a more 
aggressive profile that someone really likes, but I haven't tried it 
yet, we'll see.
I hope this helps and doesn't confuse.  Just remember it is coming 
from a new comer to this, but I can say I am learning quickly due to 
the help on this list.
All the best,
Stephen
At 01:07 PM 8/4/2007, you wrote:
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Alex, it sounds like Les really knows this coffee. 
With the idea of ramping up fast, then a good place to start is the first
stage of the second preset on your machine.  That will get you the
heat you need.  Then you may want to alter the preset on its second
cycle and bring it down so you can get to the first crack, but stay away
from the second crack.
The same may hold for the third cycle, you may want to shorten it, ramp
back up to burn off the volatiles Les mentions.  Just keep it short
so you don't hit the second crack.
I will say, that with my IR2 burning about 20F higher than it says on the
display I had to play with the preset a lot, but it still gave me a good
starting spot.  
One recipe that was on this list or was referenced on this list went like
this, maybe someone can comment if it would work for this bean:
1st cycle: 350 for 2 minutes; 2nd cycle: 400 for 3 minutes; 3rd cycle:
450 for between 4 to 6 minutes (this is where you have to play. In theory
the 6 minutes should take you to the door of the 2nd crack, but it took
mine almost to French.  You may want to do a batch with the last
cycle at 4 and go from there and dial in.)
Again, I got this from this list and it has helped me a lot. 
Knowing what my machine actually runs at now helps even more, but when I
first used it I didn't know the difference from the temperature and the
display on the machine.  But, I played with times first to see what
I could come up with and it worked.  Once I got the thermometer -
with the wire which goes into the chamber and beans - I was better able
to build from this recipe.
All of mine have been with 5 to 5.5 ounce shots in the chamber, when
using this profile.
If the first cycle is too low to bring you to the temp you need for the
second cycle to be right on, you could raise cycle one to 375, which was
suggested to me on another site.  But, just a heads up, for me, as
many have warned here, changing too many things at once is tough.  I
ended up using my senses more and more, then played with time more than
temperature as a beginner.  I have been given a more aggressive
profile that someone really likes, but I haven't tried it yet, we'll
see.
I hope this helps and doesn't confuse.  Just remember it is coming
from a new comer to this, but I can say I am learning quickly due to the
help on this list.
All the best,
Stephen
At 01:07 PM 8/4/2007, you wrote:
The Aqua Tibia has a narrow
sweet spot.  I have not air roasted it, but it does like a good
stretch after 1st crack.  You want to stay out of second
crack.  You want to ramp up fast to the straw colored stage and then
begin to slow things down.  I have not roasted with an I-Roast
before, but I think you have more control over your roast than 
other air roasters.  You want to pull this one just before second
crack. 
This coffee isn't one that is good at a lighter roast.  The
sharpness you are talking about is an under development of the
carmelization.  You also need to stretch that time after 1st to burn
off some of those bitter volatiles.  Once you hit the sweetspot on
this one, it is awesome.  Try for a good full city. 
Les
 
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8) From: Vicki Smith
I use a bread machine/heat gun, but my experience with this bean mirrors 
yours, Les. for most beans, I go from high to low settings on the heat 
gun when first crack is really established. After a few misses with this 
bean,  I did a fairly fast roast to strawish coloured beans, and then 
slowed the roast down. I stayed out of second. It made a lovely coffee 
once I got this down pat.
Initially, I thought that what I was getting was a winey taste--not 
something I enjoy--but when I adjusted my profile, this went away.
Can you generalize from this bean to others, similar perhaps in some 
ways you could identify for us less experienced types?
v
Les wrote:
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