HomeRoast Digest


Topic: The Fetishism of the Commodity, aka "Better than Thou" (11 msgs / 584 lines)
1) From: Fookoo Network
When it comes to grinders, the best instructor is to go through a series of 
grinders yourself, at which point one realizes that the grinder does 
matter.  This is something that has always been suggested by professionals, 
but it is very difficult to come around to the point at which one is 
willing to lay out bucks to buy one without previous experience.  It is 
fine that professionals agree, but they aren't always right.  Just look at 
the Clover that delivers stripped down flavor, somewhat akin to the 
stripping of wines via centrifuging or other heavy duty filtering.
At 11:32 PM 9/3/07 -0700, you wrote:
<Snip>

2) From: Alchemist John
Jim.   Thank you.
Rayo, first off you have it subtly wrong.  It has never been the best 
grinder you can FIND.  It has been the best grinder YOU can AFFORD.
You are welcome to your opinion, but you appear to be in the minority 
here.  What grinder to you have?  If you care about your opinion 
carrying any weight (otherwise, why would you post) how about a 
little experience as to why you think the way you do about grinders?
At 22:18 9/3/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
John Nanci
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

3) From: Stephen Carey
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John,
I think you are correct and I am not sure of the intent of any of the 
other posters.  For me, it is first, to find the proper way to grind 
with the grinder I have.  Next, when I can afford it, truly afford 
it, it will be the best I can afford.  I don't want to hurt the 
household finances and I already take up so much of them with medical 
issues that I am very careful how I spend my money.
So, that means I need to learn how to grind my roasts with my grinder 
to provide the best possible grind.  In time, I know, I will get the 
a new grinder.  I know what it is, it is out of stock right now, but 
I need to wait anyway for finances to be in the proper place.  In the 
meantime, I am going to enjoy my roasts, be a bit proud of the ones 
that turn out really well and I will keep learning about 
roasting.  Eventually, I may have the best roasting/grinding set-up 
for ME.  It may not be for everyone, but it will be just fine for 
me.  And my roasts will keep getting better, I hope.
All the best,
Stephen
At 08:28 AM 9/4/2007, you wrote:
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John,
I think you are correct and I am not sure of the intent of any of the
other posters.  For me, it is first, to find the proper way to grind
with the grinder I have.  Next, when I can afford it, truly afford
it, it will be the best I can afford.  I don't want to hurt the
household finances and I already take up so much of them with medical
issues that I am very careful how I spend my money.
So, that means I need to learn how to grind my roasts with my grinder to
provide the best possible grind.  In time, I know, I will get the a
new grinder.  I know what it is, it is out of stock right now, but I
need to wait anyway for finances to be in the proper place.  In the
meantime, I am going to enjoy my roasts, be a bit proud of the ones that
turn out really well and I will keep learning about roasting. 
Eventually, I may have the best roasting/grinding set-up for ME.  It
may not be for everyone, but it will be just fine for me.  And my
roasts will keep getting better, I hope.
All the best,
Stephen
At 08:28 AM 9/4/2007, you wrote:
Jim.   Thank
you.
Rayo, first off you have it subtly wrong.  It has never been the
best grinder you can FIND.  It has been the best grinder YOU can
AFFORD.
You are welcome to your opinion, but you appear to be in the minority
here.  What grinder to you have?  If you care about your
opinion carrying any weight (otherwise, why would you post) how about a
little experience as to why you think the way you do about grinders?
John Nanci
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalt
http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/--=====================_80121250==.ALT--

4) From: Stephen Carey
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Robert, I totally get what you are saying.  However, in some 
situations the person may have to move up slowly.  They may have the 
worst grinder possible, but not the money to go to a Rocky or a 
Mazzer, but they can upgrade to what someone may suggest in their 
price range.  That way they get better coffee and are out of the 
"worst" category and can then save.
For me, I am fine.  I don't have the worst, I have a decent 
grinder.  So, I can save for the Rocky or Mazzer, now I have been 
told that family members want to buy me a grinder which is better 
than mine but it is not what I really want in the end.  I suggested 
they let me buy my grinder, since it is a personal preference kind of 
thing and send me money toward it, or get me something else coffee 
related to help make my little area more like a coffee shop, in the 
home or a gift certificate from SMs.
So, I don't disagree with you, but if one has a horrible grinder, 
which can't hit even a halfway decent roast then something in between 
makes sense, thus allowing them to better taste their work with 
roasting.  Though, once their, I would follow you suggestion, save 
until they can get what most people finally get to, saving money by waiting.
Smart post, by you, thank you very much.
At 12:44 PM 9/4/2007, you wrote:
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Robert, I totally get what you are saying.  However, in
some situations the person may have to move up slowly.  They may
have the worst grinder possible, but not the money to go to a Rocky or a
Mazzer, but they can upgrade to what someone may suggest in their price
range.  That way they get better coffee and are out of the
"worst" category and can then save.
For me, I am fine.  I don't have the worst, I have a decent
grinder.  So, I can save for the Rocky or Mazzer, now I have been
told that family members want to buy me a grinder which is better than
mine but it is not what I really want in the end.  I suggested they
let me buy my grinder, since it is a personal preference kind of thing
and send me money toward it, or get me something else coffee related to
help make my little area more like a coffee shop, in the home or a gift
certificate from SMs.
So, I don't disagree with you, but if one has a horrible grinder, which
can't hit even a halfway decent roast then something in between makes
sense, thus allowing them to better taste their work with roasting. 
Though, once their, I would follow you suggestion, save until they can
get what most people finally get to, saving money by waiting.
Smart post, by you, thank you very much.
At 12:44 PM 9/4/2007, you wrote:
Robert,
You will probably hear from some of them, but in response to
questions
such as yours several listers usually come forth with their grinder
stories. There is usually a similarity to the stories. They go like
this: "I bought the first grinder because it was cheap and
available.
It didn't work very well, so I 'upgraded' to a second roaster, and
etc
etc etc." The story usually ends with a Rocky or a Mazzer, and
a
comment to the effect that all the money spent prior to the Rocky or
Mazzer was wasted money.
Brian
On 9/4/07, Robert Shields <robtshields> wrote:
>
>
> Les,
> Thank you for the quick response.  This is a Gaggia MDF
grinder.
> robert
>
homeroast mailing list
http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change your personal list settings (digest options, vacations,
unsvbscribes) go to
http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings--=====================_95049718==.ALT--

5) From: Alchemist John
I want to really hammer this home - yes, I am preaching on  a soap 
box.  I have a giant Trosser.  I had a Zass and only moved up for the 
efficiency sake of the Trosser (40 second grind vs 2 minutes).  Over 
and over through the years I have tasted and tested and compared my 
hand grinders directly to the eclectic grinders.  The Zass beat an 
older Solis hands down.  It was equivalent to a Rocky.  My Trosser is 
equivalent to two different new burred MM in grind quality.  Unlike 
the comment below, I could not taste any difference in a MM and a 
Trosser blind tasting.  The burrs on these hand grinders are 
good.  What is lacking is the speed and machine.  Interestingly 
enough, the speed is what will probably have my burrs last longer 
than most MM. Slow grinding vs fast grinding.  Fast is a great way to 
dull a edge.
I don't see ever moving to another grinder unless my current one 
fails in some way.  I have consistently turned down opportunities to 
buy a great priced Rocky and MM.  I just don't want the noise nor to 
get spoiled.  I LIKE the physicality of the grinding.  I like 
grind.  I like to literally pull my espresso on a lever.  I like to 
manually control my roast.  We live to "easy" now days and are too 
spoiled by convenience IMO.  I have "enough" and am happy.
If you get a good Zass (some had QC issues) and don't mind the 
physicality, IMO there is NO reason to look at moving up because from 
a grind standpoint, you are already there.
Off my soap box now.  Thanks.
BTW, Les, I realize you were joking, but I didn't say "but the most 
expensive grinder your can afford".  I said buy the "best" grinder 
you can afford.  Hence, your sub $100 MM was the best as it is a 
great grinder at a great price.  No contradiction there.
At 03:54 9/7/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
John Nanci
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

6) From: Stephen Carey
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John, I still need help for I have information overload.  I want to 
get away from my whirly bird, I do feel I am missing out on 
flavors.  I can afford the Maestro Plus Mill or the Model 169 DG 
Closed Hopper Walnut Zassenhaus.  I don't mind the hand grinding for 
I am grinding for one person, a full pot, but one person.  Every few 
weeks I may need to grind for more people, but still the same 
amount.  Can you tell from your experience if I am wasting money by 
spending an extra $30 to $50, plus shipping, for the Maestro?  I know 
this is a personal opinion question, but I am looking for years to 
come.  The 169 DG just has a great appeal to me, I think I would love 
it.  I can't go above the Maestro for a few years, not do I want to right now.
So, if one thinks the flavor difference is minimal or major, I will 
go with the best I can afford.  However, if the best is saving money 
by getting the 169, that is great.
Between all of the chemo and other drugs I am on I am having major 
problems making up my mind.  I am usually right there, make a 
decision and be done with it, but this affects our income, but also, 
this hobby turned passion, we feel, deserves the best we can afford, 
which is one of those two.
Does that make sense?
At 08:08 AM 9/7/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
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John, I still need help for I have information
overload.  I want to get away from my whirly bird, I do feel I am
missing out on flavors.  I can afford the Maestro Plus Mill
or the Model 169 DG Closed Hopper Walnut Zassenhaus.  I don't mind
the hand grinding for I am grinding for one person, a full pot, but one
person.  Every few weeks I may need to grind for more people, but
still the same amount.  Can you tell from your experience if I am
wasting money by spending an extra $30 to $50, plus shipping, for the
Maestro?  I know this is a personal opinion question, but I am
looking for years to come.  The 169 DG just has a great appeal to
me, I think I would love it.  I can't go above the Maestro for a few
years, not do I want to right now.
So, if one thinks the flavor difference is minimal or major, I will go
with the best I can afford.  However, if the best is saving money by
getting the 169, that is great.
Between all of the chemo and other drugs I am on I am having major
problems making up my mind.  I am usually right there, make a
decision and be done with it, but this affects our income, but also, this
hobby turned passion, we feel, deserves the best we can afford, which is
one of those two.
Does that make sense?
At 08:08 AM 9/7/2007, you wrote:
I want to really hammer this
home - yes, I am preaching on  a soap box.  I have a giant
Trosser.  I had a Zass and only moved up for the efficiency sake of
the Trosser (40 second grind vs 2 minutes).  Over and over through
the years I have tasted and tested and compared my hand grinders directly
to the eclectic grinders.  The Zass beat an older Solis hands
down.  It was equivalent to a Rocky.  My Trosser is equivalent
to two different new burred MM in grind quality.  Unlike the comment
below, I could not taste any difference in a MM and a Trosser blind
tasting.  The burrs on these hand grinders are good.  What is
lacking is the speed and machine.  Interestingly enough, the speed
is what will probably have my burrs last longer than most MM. Slow
grinding vs fast grinding.  Fast is a great way to dull a
edge.
I don't see ever moving to another grinder unless my current one fails in
some way.  I have consistently turned down opportunities to buy a
great priced Rocky and MM.  I just don't want the noise nor to get
spoiled.  I LIKE the physicality of the grinding.  I like
grind.  I like to literally pull my espresso on a lever.  I
like to manually control my roast.  We live to "easy" now
days and are too spoiled by convenience IMO.  I have
"enough" and am happy.
If you get a good Zass (some had QC issues) and don't mind the
physicality, IMO there is NO reason to look at moving up because from a
grind standpoint, you are already there.
Off my soap box now.  Thanks.
BTW, Les, I realize you were joking, but I didn't say "but the most
expensive grinder your can afford".  I said buy the
"best" grinder you can afford.  Hence, your sub $100 MM
was the best as it is a great grinder at a great price.  No
contradiction there.  
At 03:54 9/7/2007, you wrote:
>
Furthermore, how many people are going to admit that
after spending in excess of $200 to upgrade the grinder that it didn't
make much difference?  
 
My whirly grinder cost about $20.  My Zass cost
about $70 new.  I got a huge improvement in taste for $50.  The
move up to a Mazzer cost me a lot more and only made a modest improvement
in taste over the Zass, but I did it mostly for the convenience
especially when I was making coffee for a lot of people.  The Zass
does a great job - if you are willing and able to grind by hand, it's
well worth the investment.
John Nanci
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalt
http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/--=====================_140183375==.ALT--

7) From: Stephen Carey
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F, I don't know if you are playing me or not, but really, it is a 
great idea, they would do it.  And why not, they want to drink 
it!  Cool idea, out of the box thinking, that is what we need.
Stephen
At 11:02 AM 9/7/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
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F, I don't know if you are playing me or not, but really, it
is a great idea, they would do it.  And why not, they want to drink
it!  Cool idea, out of the box thinking, that is what we
need.
Stephen
At 11:02 AM 9/7/2007, you wrote:
Well, here's an idea - let
everyone have a turn on the grinder and make it an interactive event if
you're grinding for guests.  Let people taste the difference it
makes when you have a hand in the preparation! 
 
-F
 
On 9/7/07, Stephen Carey
<steve
> wrote: 
the Model 169 DG Closed Hopper Walnut Zassenhaus.  I don't mind
the hand grinding for I am grinding for one person, a full pot, but one
person.  Every few weeks I may need to grind for more people, but
still the same amount.  Can you tell from your 
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8) From: Stephen Carey
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I am pretty sure I could manage to be polite.  I really could.  I 
will practice today on our cats!
At 12:00 PM 9/7/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
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I am pretty sure I could manage to be polite.  I really
could.  I will practice today on our cats!
At 12:00 PM 9/7/2007, you wrote:
Totally serious.  Seems
like the thing friends would like to do.  I mean, I wouldn't put it
like this 'grind your own damn coffee!' ;)
-F  
 
On 9/7/07, Stephen Carey
<steve
> wrote: 
F, I don't know if you are playing me or not, but really, it is a
great idea, they would do it.  And why not, they want to drink
it!  Cool idea, out of the box thinking, that is what we
need.
Stephen 
At 11:02 AM 9/7/2007, you wrote:
Well, here's an idea - let everyone have a turn on the grinder and
make it an interactive event if you're grinding for guests.  Let
people taste the difference it makes when you have a hand in the
preparation! 
 
-F
 
On 9/7/07, Stephen Carey
<steve
> wrote: 
the Model 169 DG Closed Hopper Walnut Zassenhaus.  I don't mind
the hand grinding for I am grinding for one person, a full pot, but one
person.  Every few weeks I may need to grind for more people, but
still the same amount.  Can you tell from your 
--=====================_151258578==.ALT--

9) From: Alchemist John
IMNSHO, if you don't mind or even like the simplicity of hand 
grinding, I would recommend the Zass.  It has the capability to give 
you a more versatile grind for a longer time.  The Zass can go coarse 
(where is it actually average) to espresso fine (where it 
rocks).  The Maestro will do fine in the coarse to medium 
category.  Fine will wear and ruin the burrs.
There you go.  Zass has my vote.  Larger grinder window, less 
money.  And as long as you continue to like the hand grinding, there 
is no NEED to even look at upgrading.
Does that give you what you need?
At 06:51 9/7/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>

10) From: Stephen Carey
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John, that makes so much sense an is the way to go.  I know which one 
I want, but I would like to buy from SMs, but they just don't seem to 
have them in stock and I don't know when they will, But I can wait or 
go to Ebay or another source.
Thank you for your honest opinion.
That is what I need.
Stephen
At 10:47 AM 9/8/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
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John, that makes so much sense an is the way to go.  I
know which one I want, but I would like to buy from SMs, but they just
don't seem to have them in stock and I don't know when they will, But I
can wait or go to Ebay or another source.
Thank you for your honest opinion.
That is what I need.
Stephen
At 10:47 AM 9/8/2007, you wrote:
IMNSHO, if you don't mind or
even like the simplicity of hand grinding, I would recommend the
Zass.  It has the capability to give you a more versatile grind for
a longer time.  The Zass can go coarse (where is it actually
average) to espresso fine (where it rocks).  The Maestro will do
fine in the coarse to medium category.  Fine will wear and ruin the
burrs.
There you go.  Zass has my vote.  Larger grinder window, less
money.  And as long as you continue to like the hand grinding, there
is no NEED to even look at upgrading.
Does that give you what you need?
At 06:51 9/7/2007, you wrote:
John, I still need help for I
have information overload.  I want to get away from my whirly bird,
I do feel I am missing out on flavors.  I can afford the Maestro
Plus Mill or the Model 169 DG Closed Hopper Walnut Zassenhaus. 
I don't mind the hand grinding for I am grinding for one person, a full
pot, but one person.  Every few weeks I may need to grind for more
people, but still the same amount.  Can you tell from your
experience if I am wasting money by spending an extra $30 to $50, plus
shipping, for the Maestro?  I know this is a personal opinion
question, but I am looking for years to come.  The 169 DG just has a
great appeal to me, I think I would love it.  I can't go above the
Maestro for a few years, not do I want to right now.
So, if one thinks the flavor difference is minimal or major, I will go
with the best I can afford.  However, if the best is saving money by
getting the 169, that is great.
Between all of the chemo and other drugs I am on I am having major
problems making up my mind.  I am usually right there, make a
decision and be done with it, but this affects our income, but also, this
hobby turned passion, we feel, deserves the best we can afford, which is
one of those two.
Does that make sense?
--=====================_232738078==.ALT--

11) From: Robert Gulley
Only if Mrs. Olsen came over and fixed it!
RG
At 09:20 PM 9/11/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>


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