HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Boiling Water (36 msgs / 1339 lines)
1) From: Barry Luterman
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Perhaps one of the Chemists or Chemical Engineers has an answer. First =
thing in the morning my wife and I have coffee made in a stove top, =
glass, Bodum vacuum pot. I get up and put up water to boil in a =
stainless steel kettle and then transfer the boiling water to the glass =
bowl. While the water is heating I go into another room and check my =
e-mails. Often I get involved in reading the e-mails and by the time I =
get back to the kitchen the water is boiling vigorously and steam is =
pouring out of the kettle. I then proceed to make the coffee. My wife =
complains that the coffee doesn't taste as good when I allow that to =
happen. She states that I boil the oxygen out of the water leaving the =
water flat tasting. Which in turn makes the coffee flat tasting. I =
contend all that happens is that when the water reaches 212 deg.F(at sea =
level) it turns to steam and evaporates. There is no change to the =
chemical nature of the water or the taste of the brew due to over =
boiling the water.

2) From: Larry Johnson
I am neither a chemist nor a chemical engineer, but I do homebrew beer (see,
no Holiday Inn Express reference) and have studied water, especially
concerning mineral content. I think your wife was very close to the truth,
but it's not oxygen you're boiling out, it's certain ones of the minerals.
Well, actually, the oxygen and other gasses that are dissolved in the water
will come out from boiling it, but I think that's over pretty quickly. But I
have read in several places about certain minerals, carbonates, etc., that
precipitate out during a boil. I'm not sure of the details and I'm at work
(no access to my brewing books). I'll check into it this weekend if no one
chimes in with definite answers.
On 9/7/07, Barry Luterman  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Larry J

3) From: Rich
The dissolved gases leave the water before it boils, 170 degrees or so.  There are minerals that are 
impacted by vigorous boiling for a period of time.
--Original Message Text---
From: Larry Johnson
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:57:15 -0400
I am neither a chemist nor a chemical engineer, but I do homebrew beer (see, no Holiday Inn Express 
reference) and have studied water, especially concerning mineral content. I think your wife was very 
close to the truth, but it's not oxygen you're boiling out, it's certain ones of the minerals. Well, actually, 
the oxygen and other gasses that are dissolved in the water will come out from boiling it, but I think 
that's over pretty quickly. But I have read in several places about certain minerals, carbonates, etc., 
that precipitate out during a boil. I'm not sure of the details and I'm at work (no access to my brewing 
books). I'll check into it this weekend if no one chimes in with definite answers.  
On 9/7/07, Barry Luterman  wrote: Perhaps one of the Chemists or Chemical 
Engineers has an answer. First thing in the morning my wife and I have coffee made in a stove top, glass, Bodum vacuum pot. I get up 
and put up water to boil in a stainless steel kettle and then transfer the boiling water to the glass bowl. While the water is heating I go 
into another room and check my e-mails. Often I get involved in reading the e-mails and by the time I get back to the kitchen the water is 
boiling vigorously and steam is pouring out of the kettle. I then proceed to make the coffee. My wife complains that the coffee doesn't 
taste as good when I allow that to happen. She states that I boil the oxygen out of the water leaving the water flat tasting. Which in turn 
makes the coffee flat tasting. I contend all that happens is that when the water reaches 212 deg.F(at sea level) it turns to steam and 
evaporates. There is no change to the chemical nature of the water or the taste of the brew due to over boiling the water. 
-- 
Larry J 

4) From: Cameron Forde
The boiling definitely drives off the oxygen (O2) and nitrogen (N2)
that are dissolved in the water.  I don't think that this is causing
the change in taste but very likely effects how quickly your vac pot
"goes south" (time of the extraction).  It is also possible that you
are driving off CO2 if your water is high in carbonate.  I would
imagine that this would reduce the amount of carbonic acid in your
water and thus raise the pH.  I don't have a feeling for how strong an
effect this would be -- I could do some calculations and see.
Cameron
On 9/7/07, Rich  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
ceforde

5) From: Mike Koenig
Barry,
Boiling will drive off dissolved gases,  I'd have to look up some data
to be sure, but I think some of the gases require vigorous boiling
before they are removed completely (solubility will continually
decrease as you approach boiling)  Boiling out the dissolved CO2 may
have an effect on the taste, and in water with low mineral content
could even change the pH.
 If your water is high in calcium or magnesium you will also
precipitate them out during an extended boil (the same reason hard
water is not so good for the insides of your espresso machine).  If
you get your water from surface reserviors, it's probably not that
high in Calcium or Magnesium, but if it's from a well, then it likely
is.
I'd have to look up some data to be sure, but I do know that preparing
"CO2 free water" for analytical work involves boiling for a period of
time.
--mike
On 9/7/07, Barry Luterman  wrote:
<Snip>

6) From: Barry Luterman
I know the water here is considered very pure. It sure tastes good and 
besides we bottle it and sell it all over the world. According to the water 
company it takes 25 years for the water to be naturally  processed from rain 
water. It percolates through lava rocks to large underground caverns.

7) From: Larry Johnson
Most water utilities are happy to supply a mineral content report if asked.
It sounds like your water is wonderful and tasty, but that doesn't mean no
carbonates, calcium or magnesium. "Pure" for drinking doesn't mean "pure"
H2O. Coming from underground the way it does, I would bet on there being
some minerals.
Here's an idea. Boil some water for however long you think it takes to
develop the taste difference, then have a blind tasting comparing it to
water that hasn't been boiled at all.  And do the test with the water at
room temp, not chilled.
On 9/7/07, Barry Luterman  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Larry J

8) From: Barry Luterman
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Did that my wife notices a difference. I do not. We need an independent =
observer. Next list member who visits Hawai'i is it.

9) From: Christopher Swingley
<Snip>
You might want to do this as a triangle test: three glasses, two with
one sample, one with another.  See if you or your wife can identify the
glass that's different.
The difference between this test and one with only two samples is that
with two glasses, you're assuming there's a difference and asking the
subject to determine which is better.  But what if the two samples are
perceptionally the same (which sounds like what you might be
hypothesizing).  The triangle test forces subjects to determine if there
is a real difference, and if they detect one, which they prefer.  And if
the subject selects the wrong glass as being the unique one, you may
suspect that whatever differences exist between samples, the differences
aren't related to whatever you're testing for (like the glass was dirty
or still had soap residue from the dishwasher, etc.).
The same procedure could be repeated for coffee, since changes in pH or
mineral content in the water might be below sensory perceptions in water
but could affect coffee flavor extraction significantly.  Of course,
brewing two samples of coffee in identical ways, except one, is pretty
difficult unless you happen to have two identical kettles and vacuum
pots.
Cheers,
Chris
-- 
Christopher S. Swingley          cswingle
Intl. Arctic Research Center
University of Alaska Fairbanks  http://people.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/

10) From: raymanowen
Of your favorite coffee, give her a roasted bean to crunch. If that
gains her approval, your brewing strength is in question, not the
water. Note: that oral extraction is at a much lower temperature
(98.6 F) than the boiling water. Maybe 212 is 2 hott?
Also occurring at a lower temperature than boiling is the outgassing
of dissolved air, oxygen and CO2. Heat an open jar of tap water in a
double boiler- or just set it in a pan of water as you heat it. Gas
bubbles will form in the glass jar long before the water in the pan
boils.
Water degasses before it boils. Since the water lines are under
pressure, the fresh water you draw from a tap has a lot of gas
dissolved in it. If you let it sit undisturbed, it will soon degas
itself. Just fill the jar and watch what happens in a few minutes.
My Aunt lived on a farm and they used well water for cooking and
drinking. I always considered the well water more pure, because we had
somewhat cloudy water in Peoria. We lived in the north end of town,
and the city was growing to the north. The city fathers' fix for the
increased water flow was to raise the pressure. We had over 90psi at
the tap forever.
Cheers and Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
Microwave a cup of fresh drawn water and watch it spew-
On 9/7/07, Barry Luterman  wrote:
<Snip>
ing
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m
<Snip>
 in
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s
<Snip>
 to
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to
<Snip>

11) From: Bernard Gerrard
I would suggest an experiment.  Same roast, same quantity of coffee 
using different brewing methods and see how the taste goes.  There was a 
discussion on a question of mine about a month ago on water quality.  My 
experience with vac pots has given  mixed results.  How long does the 
coffee stay brewing before going south?  A drip coffee maker does have a 
predictable water-in, coffee-out schedule.   Press makers have their own 
method.  An open brew with a pour-over through a filter will be 
different again.  My current coffee toy is the Aeropress and I love what 
comes from it the best of all.  Bernard C. Gerrard

12) From: Terry Stockdale
At 11:44 AM 9/7/2007, Barry wrote:
<Snip>
Obviously, this is only a problem that happens with your current 
grinder, so you need a new one.
Or, maybe it's the roaster - time to buy/build the next 
model.  Sounds like you've got great justification -- you're doing it 
for your wife .
Of course, it could be that you're using this as an opportunity to 
"secretly serve Taster's Choice to the patrons of this fine 
restaurant to see if they notice a difference."  [Younger list 
members may not remember these TV ads.]  Fortunately, she notices the 
difference so you get to continue home roasting coffee.
Back in the real world, here's a thought:  You could get some 
chicory, so that when you forget and let the water boil, you can add 
a little chicory to brighten the taste.  SM occasionally has (or had) 
an already-roasted French Chicory available, but it's not in the 
coffee list at present.
--
Terry Stockdale -- Baton Rouge, LA
My Coffee Pages:http://www.TerryStockdale.com/coffeeMy Computer Pages: http://www.TerrysComputerTips.com

13) From: Eddie Dove
Chicory is on the list under "Island & Others".
Eddie
-- 
Vita non est vivere sed valere vita est
Roasting Blog and Profiles for the Gene Cafehttp://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/On 9/8/07, Terry Stockdale  wrote:
[SNIP]
<Snip>

14) From: JanoMac
<Snip>
tasting. Which in turn makes the coffee flat tasting.<<
She is close to the truth:
In my Boy Scout days we used to melt/boil snow over a fire or stove to get
water to drink. It tasted flat, if simply left to cool to the point of
drinkability. After one of our Scout Masters told us that we had boiled all
of the "air" out of the water, we learned to put the snowmelt into our
canteens and shake the bejeebers out of it. We noticed that the flavor
improved.
Later I confirmed this anecdotal evidence in the lab and through readings in
the science journals & texts.
...but it is not Oxygen that lends the flavor, but more likely, carbon
dioxide. 
When tap water comes out of the tap or well, it has virtually NO oxygen
dissolved it in. If you have a diffuser on the end of the faucet, you can
get the oxygen up to around 6 to 8ppm at normal tap water temperatures. As
soon as the water gets much over 120 degrees F, the oxygen is all but gone.
Cool it down in an open container and the oxygen is not likely to dissolve
back into it without agitation.
Tap water also has very little (generally), if any, CO2 when coming out of
the tap. The diffuser on the faucet adds a considerable amount because CO2
is much more soluble in water than is Oxygen. Again, most is gone once you
heat the water much over 100 degrees F, but it stays in solution longer than
Oxygen, so you can reach boiling and still have dissolved CO2. Cool it and
let it sit in an open container and the CO2 will dissolve from the
atmosphere into the water.
Not a problem for home use - big problem for folks like me who need "pure"
water for certain lab uses.
For those of you who are curious types:
When you take water right out of the tap and let it sit in a glass for
awhile you will likely see many tiny bubbles form on the walls of the glass.
That's predominantly Nitrogen gas. Like Oxygen, it adds virtually no flavor
to the water.
Kirk
(Resident user of distilled water in biology)

15) From: Brett Mason
Moral of the story:
  Don't go messin' with Mama - she's right!
On 9/8/07, JanoMac  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

16) From: Barry Luterman
So she's not crazy. She knows every time it happens. Even though she was not 
even there to witness the event. She says the coffee is too strong and it 
has a bitter after taste.

17) From: Homeroaster
Maybe you left out some details to simplify the explanation, but isn't water 
one hydrogen and two oxygen molecules, as well as assorted dissolved 
minerals and particulates?  If you boil away the oxygen, how can it still be 
water?  Big dummy here, so speak slowly.  I guess maybe there is suspended 
oxygen molecules, not attached to hydrogen that get boiled away?  Maybe I 
missed that day in Chemistry class.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

18) From: Barry Luterman
I think what he is saying is it is not the oxygen depletion that is 
affecting the taste of the coffee. Rather it is the depletion of the CO2 
from the water that is the culprit.
Ed I agreed with you. When my wife said I was depleting the oxygen it made 
no sense to me. I reasoned that the heat was causing a physical change 
(water to steam ) rather than a chemical change. I never took Chem. My 
guidance counselor believed (and rightly so) I couldn't be trusted in a 
Chemistry Lab. I took Physics instead.

19) From: JanoMac
Ed writes:
<Snip>
one hydrogen and two oxygen molecules, as well as assorted dissolved
minerals and particulates?  If you boil away the oxygen, how can it still be
water?  Big dummy here, so speak slowly.  I guess maybe there is suspended
oxygen molecules, not attached to hydrogen that get boiled away?  Maybe I
missed that day in Chemistry class.<<
#1. Ed, it is ONE Oxygen and TWO Hydrogens. I promise won't tell your Chem
teacher! 
#2. The H-O-H (H2O) molecules are not broken apart in boiling. The water
stays...well...water, H2O; no matter how much you boil or freeze it.
The Oxygen we are talking about here is the O2 gas from the atmosphere that
dissolves *in* the water *between* the molecules of the H2O.
This is, for instance, the Oxygen that fish breathe. They take the O2 out of
the water from between the molecules of H2O and leave the H2O alone.
Dissolving Oxygen into the H2O is just like dissolving CO2 gas into the
water to make fizzy soda pop (except it way easier to get the CO2 to
dissolve than the O2).
Does that help?
This topic of oxygen in water is kind of funny, too, because there are
charlatans out there that try to sell "oxygenated" water as a health item.
They claim that they "super-oxygenate" the water so you get more oxygen into
your body by drinking it and that additional oxygen will cure all manner of
ills in you.
Pffft! Pshaw! and Wibble-snobble! on all that!
By the time you open the bottle, that extra O2 is "gone with the wind." If
you pour it out into a vessel - any extra that may have been there is even
more released into the atmosphere and you are back to the level of oxygen
generally found in a farm pond! Actually, you are left with a bottle of
water with the same amount of "extra" oxygen as if you had just shaken the
bottle.
Any talk of a "special process" by which they get the oxygen to stick better
to the water molecules or any talk of the water having some kind of
memory...well...that is all balderdash, to be as polite as I can be. Pure
and simple pseudoscience. A load of codswallop!
Kirk
(Resident despiser of pseudoscience charlatans)
<Snip>

20) From: Homeroaster
I'd bet that it has little to nothing to do with CO2 or O depletion, but 
rather a change in the ionization giving it a less lively taste perception 
on the tongue, OR maybe the change of taste due to 'cooking' the chemicals, 
minerals and other particulates in the water.  I know that if you boil too 
much of the water away, you have a much greater concentration of the 
minerals and particulates that 'can't' boil away and might taste bad if left 
in a smaller volume of water.  Heat may even cause chemical reactions in 
them and change the taste.  What's dead bacteria taste like? :::grin:::
*********************
Ed Needham (loved Physics!)
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

21) From: Ed Needham
That's twice in as many weeks I've thought one thing and typed another.  How 
come Dan didn't catch that?
Thanks for the catch.

22) From: Homeroaster
That's twice in as many weeks I've thought one thing and typed another.  How
come Dan didn't catch that?
Thanks for the catch.

23) From: Lynne Biziewski
The water that comes out of my tap lately...
What's dead bacteria taste like? :::grin:::
<Snip>

24) From: Jim De Hoog
So Barry,
 
Are you looking for an independent observer for this marita=
l dilemma?  If the price is right I'd be willing to be the independent obse=
rver.  I do not currently hav eplan to be in Hawaii, but like I said, if th=
e price is right.
Jim "Ice Bucket Roaster" De Hoog
----- Origi=
nal Message ----
From: Barry Luterman 
To: =
homeroast
Sent: Friday, September 7, 2007 3:06:29 P=
M
Subject: Re: +Boiling Water
Did that my wife notices a differen=
ce. I do not. We need an independent observer. Next list member who visits =
Hawai'i is it.

25) From: Barry Luterman
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Dilemma solved I have decided my wife has the more sophisticated palate. =
Therefore, I resolve to not walk away from the water while it is =
boiling.

26) From: Larry English
OK - but not 'til mid-December, Big Island.  Wish it were sooner ...
Larry
On 9/7/07, Barry Luterman  wrote:
<Snip>

27) From: Cookie (Ann-Marie)
OMG! This is getting as complicated as dyeing yarn.
Lazy Cookie, who pref=
ers hit and miss.
P.S. My husband calls bad coffee "bilge water". It caus=
es him to talk like a pirate. BTW, only 6 more days til International Talk =
Like a Pirate Day.
 
 http://cookiestitches.blogspot.com=
----- Original Message ----
From: Mike Koenig 
T=
o: homeroast
Sent: Friday, September 7, 2007 1:40:0=
4 PM
Subject: Re: +Boiling Water
Barry,
Boiling will drive o=
ff dissolved gases,  I'd have to look up some data
to be sure, but I thin=
k some of the gases require vigorous boiling
before they are removed comp=
letely (solubility will continually
decrease as you approach boiling)  Bo=
iling out the dissolved CO2 may
have an effect on the taste, and in water=
 with low mineral content
could even change the pH.
If your water is=
 high in calcium or magnesium you will also
precipitate them out during a=
n extended boil (the same reason hard
water is not so good for the inside=
s of your espresso machine).  If
you get your water from surface reservio=
rs, it's probably not that
high in Calcium or Magnesium, but if it's from=
 a well, then it likely
is.
I'd have to look up some data to be sure=
, but I do know that preparing
"CO2 free water" for analytical work invol=
ves boiling for a period of
time.
--mike
On 9/7/07, Barry=
 Luterman  wrote:
>
> Perhaps one of the Ch=
emists or Chemical Engineers has an answer. First thing
> in the morning =
my wife and I have coffee made in a stove top, glass, Bodum
> vacuum pot.=
 I get up and put up water to boil in a stainless steel kettle
> and then=
 transfer the boiling water to the glass bowl. While the water is
> heati=
ng I go into another room and check my e-mails. Often I get involved in
>=
 reading the e-mails and by the time I get back to the kitchen the water is=
> boiling vigorously and steam is pouring out of the kettle. I then proc=
eed to
> make the coffee. My wife complains that the coffee doesn't taste=
 as good
> when I allow that to happen. She states that I boil the oxygen=
 out of the
> water leaving the water flat tasting. Which in turn makes t=
he coffee flat
> tasting. I contend all that happens is that when the wat=
er reaches 212
> deg.F(at sea level) it turns to steam and evaporates. Th=
ere is no change to
> the chemical nature of the water or the taste of th=
e brew due to over
> boiling the water.=

28) From: Scott Morford
With regards to what Cameron and  Mike suggested about the pH...
I believe that the proteins in the coffee strongly buffer the coffee
solution, so any change in pH that might occur by the mechinism you
speak of would have no effect once poured onto the beans..
Scott.
On 9/7/07, Mike Koenig  wrote:
[Snip]
<Snip>

29) From: Scott Morford
Berry,
Do you have a lot of mineral buildup at the bottom of your tea kettle?
One possible answer is that by boiling for a prolonged period of time
you might be resolubilizing some of those minerals, basically making
your water 'hard'. This mechinism could definitely influence the taste
of the cup.
Scott.

30) From: Barry Luterman
There is very little mineral build up from the water here. I cleaned my 
Espresso Machine with sour salt after having the machine for one year. The 
machine is on 12 hours a day 7 days a week. Mineral build up was very light. 
It cleaned up completely with sour salt in a few hours.

31) From: Stephen Carey
--=====================_13541625==.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Okay, I will show my ignorance, but what is "sour salt?"   Thank you, Barry.
At 01:01 PM 9/14/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
--=====================_13541625==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Okay, I will show my ignorance, but what is "sour
salt?"   Thank you, Barry.
At 01:01 PM 9/14/2007, you wrote:
There is very little mineral
build up from the water here. I cleaned my Espresso Machine with sour
salt after having the machine for one year. The machine is on 12 hours a
day 7 days a week. Mineral build up was very light. It cleaned up
completely with sour salt in a few hours.

32) From: Eddie Dove
Scott,
I can assure you that Barry is no fruit.
Have a great weekend!
Eddie
-- 
Vita non est vivere sed valere vita est
Roasting Blog and Profiles for the Gene Cafehttp://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/On 9/13/07, Scott Morford  wrote:
<Snip>

33) From: Scott Morford
Haha, I guess I'll be wearing the dunce hat for a while.
As the newguy, I'm going to make the obligatory 5 or 6 stupid posts.
Actually, you'll have to cut me a little extra slack, given how dense
I am!
Scott.
On 9/14/07, Eddie Dove  wrote:
<Snip>

34) From: Barry Luterman
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Sour salt is citric acid. Citric Acid is the prime active ingredient in =
decaling products. However when sold as a descaler the cost is =
approximate one dollar per ounce. When bought as sour salt the price is =
approx 4 per pound. Sour salt is also used for cleaning beer making =
equipment.

35) From: Gail Shuford
--Apple-Mail-3-1033136201
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset-ASCII;
	delsp=yes;
	format=flowed
I'd be curious to know WHERE do you purchase citric acid?
On Sep 14, 2007, at 10:11 AM, Barry Luterman wrote:
<Snip>
--Apple-Mail-3-1033136201
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charsetO-8859-1
I'd be curious to know WHERE do =
you purchase citric acid?
On Sep 14, 2007, at 10:11 =
AM, Barry Luterman wrote:
Sour salt is citric acid. Citric Acid is the = prime active ingredient in decaling products. However when sold as a = descaler the cost is approximate one dollar per ounce. When bought as = sour salt the price is approx 4 per pound. Sour salt is also used for = cleaning beer making equipment.

36) From: Barry Luterman
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I get mine herehttp://spicebarn.com/citric_acid_sour_salt.htm


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