Alchemist John wrote that if you are happy with your grinder you should not upgrade. I strongly disagree. If you never tasted any coffee better than Starbucks, should you never try a better coffee or home roasting? If you never drove a better car than your old cheap Chevrolet, should you never try a better car? I was happy with my old Solis grinder, but I am very happy that I upgraded to a Mazzer. I never realized how big a difference a better burr grinder makes in the resulting aroma and taste! (The whole discussion reminded me about maximizers and satisfiers...Maximizers are people who always try to choose the best thing. They want the best toothpaste, the best car, the best significant other, the best dreams at night. Satisfiers will take the first thing that matches their requirements. They want clean teeth, and therefore choose the first toothpaste that they believe will do the job. They want to get to work, and buy the first car that will take them there. maximizers and satisfiers. You can read a lot about maximizers and satisfiers. It seems to me that most people who roast their coffee are maximizers, not satisfiers. Am I wrong?) Lubos
"...people who roast their coffee are maximizers..." True, and they don't accept any less than the best they can accomplish. Their goal is not to accumulate plastic toys that look like the real thing, or push-button machines that generate coffeelike drinks. "I can do better than that, and I can beat my last one, too." Cheers and Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa! Eschew Spinet Grinders.
<Snip> Fair enough... :) <Snip> I continously explore new coffee roasts, grinds, brewing methods, etc. However, I do not upgrade all of my equipment to accomplish this. Instead, I look for the coffee shops and individuals who can help facilitate this experience. I think we're close to saying the same thing. I would not recommend that someone upgrade their grinder to find out if they like the change. I would recommend that someone try properly brewed / prepared coffee with a better grinder and see if they like the difference sufficiently to warrant an upgrade. <Snip> Depends. If driving is something that brings you particular pleasure (or in some cases, particular displeasure), then it would be reasonable to shop around and see if something different could improve that experience. On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with being satisfied with what one has and sticking with it. <Snip> I'm somewhere in the middle. The argument could be made that anyone home roasting for the coffee quality (and not just as a hobby) is at least in the direction of being a maximizer. At the same time, I consider some people on here to be (affectionately) obsessive. I would not enjoy taking the process to the nth degree as they do. I am satisfied where I'm at... LarryD
John, You are right and I agree with you: “Trying and changing are two different things”. My goal, too, is “contentment within my means.” I fully agree that if someone has tried many cups of espresso properly made from freshly roasted Sweet Maria’s beans just correctly ground in a good burr grinder, and still likes that espresso (made in a clean espresso machine using good fresh water) less than his or hers Starbucks espresso, he or she should be happy with Starbucks and stay with Starbucks. The same is true for similar situations with cars, grinders, cameras, lenses, home theater equipment etc. Many people are happy with Starbucks. Others, including me, prefer the long difficult, but enjoyable “quest for Coffee Nirvana”. As far as burr grinders go, I strongly believe that a really good burr grinder is more important for making an espresso with great aroma and taste than the espresso machine being used. As I said before, I was “happy with my old Solis grinder, but I am very happy that I upgraded to a Mazzer.” Not just for the espresso. I strongly suggest that people try coffee made their usual way from beans ground in a good (and clean) burr grinder and compare it to the “same” coffee from beans ground in their present grinder. They might be surprised by the improvement in the aroma and taste. Lubos ---- Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 10:05:25 -0700 To: homeroast From: Alchemist John > Subject: Re: +A Burr Grinder is a Burr Grinder ... maximizers and satisfiers Reply-To: homeroast I agree with the fortune cookie. As for the 2nd one, you are welcome to disagree. If you are happy with *$, then no, you should not change. If you are happy with your car, you should not change. If you are happy with your grinder, you should not change. But I will note you are saying to different things. I did NOT say "if you are happy with your grinder you should not TRY another grinder." Trying and changing are two different things. It could be true - I may be an anomaly. I am NOT a maximizer. It is probably why I don't have upgrade fever. I am a DIY'er. My goal is contentment within my means. <Snip> has enough."
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Lubos, perhaps I misinterpret your letter, but it seems that your are = calling "satisfiers" in the coffee roasting hobby second rate because = they choose not to purchase the most expensive, top of the line = equipment. As a "satisfier" roaster, I'm enjoying the best coffee of my = 54 yr old life! I could afford whatever coffee machinery I want, but = choose not to. Whover wants to be a "maximizer" and own the high end = equipment, more power to them. That's great! I've learned a great deal = from those on the list. But no "maximizer" should be looking down their = nose at us "satisfiers" ALL of us home roasters are enjoying the best = coffee out there. A fun comaraderie it should always be. PAUL CARDER
"I have more junk than most people..." Is a Minolta 300 ER or a Viking Thunderbolt and Heathkit DX-100 part of your living room furnishings? I should sell tickets- a Kimball/ Schwander piano and Thomas organ, too. I'm ready for "Bring a wheelbarrow, don't leave empty-handed" party!! I never used to hoard stuff before I got my belfry tapped. Spin the wheel- it's either $250, or Free to a good home. Cheers -RayO, aka Opa! On 9/9/07, Angelo wrote: <Snip> -- "When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976
Paul, I am sorry if you read my input to mean that “"satisfiers" in the coffee roasting hobby are second rate because they choose not to purchase the most expensive, top of the line equipment. That is not what I meant to say. My goal, too, is “contentment within my means” and I do not have all the most expensive, top of line equipment. What I was trying to stress is that, in my opinion, a good burr grinder is the most important part of the equipment on the road to excellent coffee. In my opinion, you can make better coffee with first rate burr grinder and less expensive espresso machine as compared to using the best espresso machine and second rate burr grinder. Lubos PS About the "I have more junk than most people..." thread ... I still have and (rarely) use an AR turntable with a Shure V cartridge … and do not consider those being junk. * Paul Carder *homeroast /Sun Sep 9 12:48:16 2007/ Lubos, perhaps I misinterpret your letter, but it seems that your are calling "satisfiers" in the coffee roasting hobby second rate because = they choose not to purchase the most expensive, top of the line = equipment. As a "satisfier" roaster, I'm enjoying the best coffee of my = 54 yr old life! I could afford whatever coffee machinery I want, but = choose not to. Whover wants to be a "maximizer" and own the high end = equipment, more power to them. That's great! I've learned a great deal = from those on the list. But no "maximizer" should be looking down their = nose at us "satisfiers" ALL of us home roasters are enjoying the best = coffee out there. A fun comaraderie it should always be. PAUL CARDER
Ikkgc3RpbGwgaGF2ZSBhbmQgKHJhcmVseSkgdXNlIGFuIEFSIHR1cm50YWJsZSB3aXRoIGEgU2h1 cmUgViBjYXJ0cmlkZ2UgIgoKSSBoYWQgdGhhdCBzYW1lIHR1cm50YWJsZSBpbiBWaWV0bmFtLCBj b3VydGVzeSBvZiB0aGUgQlguIEl0IHdhcyBiZWx0IGRyaXZlLCBoYWQgdHdvIGNhcnRyaWRnZSBz aGVsbHMsIElJUkMsIG9ubHkgcmFuIDMzIDEvM3JwbS4gVGhlIEJYIGFsc28gaGFkIGFuIEVtcGly ZSA4ODhQRSBjYXJ0cmlkZ2UgdGhhdCBjb3N0IG5lYXJseSB0aGUgc2FtZSBhcyB0aGUgJDIwIEFS IHR1cm50YWJsZS4gQmlnIGJ1Y2tzIGZvciBhIEdJLiBJdCBzdGF5ZWQgaW4gdGhlIGJvb3RsZWcg cmFkaW8gc3RhdGlvbiBhdCBUaHV5IEhvYS4KCkJhY2sgYXQgQ2xhcmssIEkgZHJvcHBlZCBmb3Ig YSBSZXZveCBBNzcgZGVjayB0aGF0IEkgaGFkIGRyb3Agc2hpcHBlZCBiYWNrIGhvbWUsIGFuZCBh biBFbXBpcmUgMzk4IHR1cm50YWJsZS4gQVI1IHNwZWFrZXJzLiBJJ3ZlIGdvdCBpdCBhbGwgbm93 LCBleGNlcHQgVVNQUyB0cmllZCB0byBkcmliYmxlIHRoZSAzOTggYW5kIHJ1aW5lZCB0aGUgdG9u ZWFybSBiZWFyaW5ncy4gU28gSSByZXBsYWNlZCBpdCB3aXRoIHRoZSA1OTggVHJvdWJhZG9yIGFu ZCB0aGUgMTAwMFpFL1ggY2FydHJpZGdlLgoKQmFjayBob21lLCBJIHVzZWQgdGhlIEFSNSdzIGZv ciBtaWQtdHJlYmxlLCBhbmQgRS1WIGhvcm5zIGZvciB0cmVibGUgYW5kIGRvbWUgcmFkaWF0b3Ig c3VwZXIgdHdlZXRlcnMuIEJhc3Mgd2FzIDQgSmVuc2VuIFAxNUxGJ3MsIEVhcnRocXVha2Ugd2Fz IGFuIEUtViAzMFcgaW4gdGhlIHN0YWlyd2F5IGNlaWxpbmcuClNwZWFrZXJzIHdpdGggMThsYiBt YWduZXQgc3RydWN0dXJlcyBzZWVtIHRvIHdlaWdoIGEgdG9uIHdoZW4geW91J3JlIG9uIGFuIGV4 dGVuc2lvbiBsYWRkZXIhCgpObywgaXQgZGlkbid0IGRvIHdlbGwgb24gYSBzcXVhcmUgd2F2ZSBh bmQgd2hpdGUgbm9pc2Ugd2l0aCBubyBlcXVhbGl6ZXIsIHdpdGggdGhlIHdpZGVseSBzZXBhcmF0 ZWQgdmlicmF0aW5nIHJhZGlhdG9ycy4gQ29tYmluaW5nIGxpbmUgbGV2ZWwgYW5kIGhpZ2ggbGV2 ZWwgY3Jvc3NvdmVycyBoYWQgYW4gZWZmZWN0LCB0b28uCgpJIG9ubHkgaGFkIHRoZSA3MCB3YXR0 IEhlYXRoa2l0IHNvbGlkIHN0YXRlIGFtcGxpZmllciwgYnV0IERhZCdzIHdhcyBhIG1hc29ucnkg aG9tZSB3aXRoIGxhdGggYW5kIHBsYXN0ZXIgd2FsbHMuIEEgZmV3IGRpZmZlcmVudCByZWNvcmRz IGNvdWxkIDxSZWFsbHk+IGJlIGRldmFzdGF0aW5nLSBlc3BlY2lhbGx5IHRoZSBDbG91ZGJ1cnN0 IG1vdmVtZW50IG9mIHRoZSBHcmFuZCBDYW55b24gU3VpdGUuIAoKT25lIG9mIHRoZSAxODEyIE92 ZXJ0dXJlIHBlcmZvcm1hbmNlcyBkdWJiZWQgaW4gYSBicmFzcyBjYW5vbiB3aXRoIHRoZSBzY29y ZSwgYW5kIHRoZSBDQ0NDQyBvZiA2NCcgRGlhcGhvbmUgUHJvZnVuZGEgaW4gdGhlIEF0bGFudGlj IENpdHkgQ29udmVudGlvbiBIYWxsIGF1ZGl0b3JpdW0gb3JnYW4gb2YgQmFjaCBPbiB0aGUgQmln Z2VzdC4KClRoZSBzeXN0ZW0gcmVzcG9uc2UgZGlkbid0IGRvIGp1c3RpY2UgdG8gdGhlIGVmZmVj dCBvZiAzNSBpbmNoZXMgb2Ygd2luZCBwcmVzc3VyZSB0aHJvdWdoIGEgMTYiIGRpYW1ldGVyIG9y aWZpY2UgdG8gYSBzaW5nbGUgcGlwZSB0aGF0IHdlaWdocyBuZWFybHkgYSA+VG9uPCAhIAoKVGhl IGJpZyBzdHVmZiBkaWRuJ3QgbWFrZSBpdCB0byBDb2xvcmFkby4KCkNoZWVycyAtUmF5TywgYWth IE9wYSEKCkdvdCBHcmluZGVyPwoKCgoKCgoKT24gOS85LzA3LCBMdWJvcyBQYWxvdW5layA8UEFM QGllZWUub3JnPiB3cm90ZToKPiBQYXVsLAo+IEkgYW0gc29ycnkgaWYgeW91IHJlYWQgbXkgaW5w dXQgdG8gbWVhbiB0aGF0ICIic2F0aXNmaWVycyIgaW4gdGhlIGNvZmZlZSAKPiByb2FzdGluZyBo b2JieSBhcmUgc2Vjb25kIHJhdGUgYmVjYXVzZSB0aGV5IGNob29zZSBub3QgdG8gcHVyY2hhc2Ug dGhlIAo+IG1vc3QgZXhwZW5zaXZlLCB0b3Agb2YgdGhlIGxpbmUgZXF1aXBtZW50LiBUaGF0IGlz IG5vdCB3aGF0IEkgbWVhbnQgdG8gCj4gc2F5LiBNeSBnb2FsLCB0b28sIGlzICJjb250ZW50bWVu dCB3aXRoaW4gbXkgbWVhbnMiIGFuZCBJIGRvIG5vdCBoYXZlIAo+IGFsbCB0aGUgbW9zdCBleHBl bnNpdmUsIHRvcCBvZiBsaW5lIGVxdWlwbWVudC4KPiAKPiBXaGF0IEkgd2FzIHRyeWluZyB0byBz dHJlc3MgaXMgdGhhdCwgaW4gbXkgb3BpbmlvbiwgYSBnb29kIGJ1cnIgZ3JpbmRlciAKPiBpcyB0 aGUgbW9zdCBpbXBvcnRhbnQgcGFydCBvZiB0aGUgZXF1aXBtZW50IG9uIHRoZSByb2FkIHRvIGV4 Y2VsbGVudCAKPiBjb2ZmZWUuIEluIG15IG9waW5pb24sIHlvdSBjYW4gbWFrZSBiZXR0ZXIgY29m ZmVlIHdpdGggZmlyc3QgcmF0ZSBidXJyIAo+IGdyaW5kZXIgYW5kIGxlc3MgZXhwZW5zaXZlIGVz cHJlc3NvIG1hY2hpbmUgYXMgY29tcGFyZWQgdG8gdXNpbmcgdGhlIAo+IGJlc3QgZXNwcmVzc28g bWFjaGluZSBhbmQgc2Vjb25kIHJhdGUgYnVyciBncmluZGVyLgo+IAo+IEx1Ym9zCj4gUFMKPiBB Ym91dCB0aGUgIkkgaGF2ZSBtb3JlIGp1bmsgdGhhbiBtb3N0IHBlb3BsZS4uLiIgdGhyZWFkIC4u LiBJIHN0aWxsIGhhdmUgCj4gYW5kIChyYXJlbHkpIHVzZSBhbiBBUiB0dXJudGFibGUgd2l0aCBh IFNodXJlIFYgY2FydHJpZGdlIOKApiBhbmQgZG8gbm90IAo+IGNvbnNpZGVyIHRob3NlIGJlaW5n IGp1bmsuCj4gCj4gKiBQYXVsIENhcmRlciAqaG9tZXJvYXN0QGxpc3RzLnN3ZWV0bWFyaWFzLmNv bSAKPiA8bWFpbHRvOmhvbWVyb2FzdCU0MGxpc3RzLnN3ZWV0bWFyaWFzLmNvbT4KPiAvU3VuIFNl cCA5IDEyOjQ4OjE2IDIwMDcvCj4gCj4gTHVib3MsIHBlcmhhcHMgSSBtaXNpbnRlcnByZXQgeW91 ciBsZXR0ZXIsIGJ1dCBpdCBzZWVtcyB0aGF0IHlvdXIgYXJlCj4gCj4gY2FsbGluZyAic2F0aXNm aWVycyIgaW4gdGhlIGNvZmZlZSByb2FzdGluZyBob2JieSBzZWNvbmQgcmF0ZSBiZWNhdXNlID0K PiAKPiB0aGV5IGNob29zZSBub3QgdG8gcHVyY2hhc2UgdGhlIG1vc3QgZXhwZW5zaXZlLCB0b3Ag b2YgdGhlIGxpbmUgPQo+IAo+IGVxdWlwbWVudC4gQXMgYSAic2F0aXNmaWVyIiByb2FzdGVyLCBJ J20gZW5qb3lpbmcgdGhlIGJlc3QgY29mZmVlIG9mIG15ID0KPiAKPiA1NCB5ciBvbGQgbGlmZSEg SSBjb3VsZCBhZmZvcmQgd2hhdGV2ZXIgY29mZmVlIG1hY2hpbmVyeSBJIHdhbnQsIGJ1dCA9Cj4g Cj4gY2hvb3NlIG5vdCB0by4gV2hvdmVyIHdhbnRzIHRvIGJlIGEgIm1heGltaXplciIgYW5kIG93 biB0aGUgaGlnaCBlbmQgPQo+IAo+IGVxdWlwbWVudCwgbW9yZSBwb3dlciB0byB0aGVtLiBUaGF0 J3MgZ3JlYXQhIEkndmUgbGVhcm5lZCBhIGdyZWF0IGRlYWwgPQo+IAo+IGZyb20gdGhvc2Ugb24g dGhlIGxpc3QuIEJ1dCBubyAibWF4aW1pemVyIiBzaG91bGQgYmUgbG9va2luZyBkb3duIHRoZWly ID0KPiAKPiBub3NlIGF0IHVzICJzYXRpc2ZpZXJzIiBBTEwgb2YgdXMgaG9tZSByb2FzdGVycyBh cmUgZW5qb3lpbmcgdGhlIGJlc3QgPQo+IAo+IGNvZmZlZSBvdXQgdGhlcmUuIEEgZnVuIGNvbWFy YWRlcmllIGl0IHNob3VsZCBhbHdheXMgYmUuCj4gCj4gUEFVTCBDQVJERVIKPiAKPiBfX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwo+IGhvbWVyb2FzdCBtYWls aW5nIGxpc3QKPiBodHRwOi8vbGlzdHMuc3dlZXRtYXJpYXMuY29tL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8v aG9tZXJvYXN0Cj4gVG8gY2hhbmdlIHlvdXIgcGVyc29uYWwgbGlzdCBzZXR0aW5ncyAoZGlnZXN0 IG9wdGlvbnMsIHZhY2F0aW9ucywKPiB1bnN2YnNjcmliZXMpIGdvIHRvCj4gaHR0cDovL3N3ZWV0 bWFyaWFzLmNvbS9tYWlsbGlzdGluZm8uaHRtbCNwZXJzb25hbHNldHRpbmdzCj4gCgoKLS0gCiJX aGVuIHRoZSB0aGVtZSBoaXRzIHRoZSBiYXNzLCBJIGRhbmNlIHRoZSBKaWchIiAtIC1WaXJnaWwg Rm94IGF0IHRoZSBNaWdodHkgV2ljaGl0YSAoZXgtIE5ZQyBQYXJhbW91bnQpIFd1cmxpVHplci0g MTk3Ngo=