HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Grinder quality yet again aka Re: +stash/grinder? (16 msgs / 682 lines)
1) From: Jim Gundlach
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I hate to get this discussion going again.  But, if you move from  
store bought pre-ground coffee to home roasted Sweet Maria coffee  
ground by running over it with a semi that has just flattened some  
road kill, you will enjoy it because it will be much better than what  
you have experienced in the past.  The only way you are going to come  
close to letting the coffee live up to it's flavor potential is to  
carve it into relatively consistent pieces with a good grinder.  In  
The River Cottage Meat Book, Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall argues that  
you should do all you reasonably can to make the most out of the meat  
you are cooking because after all, an animal died for it.  I take a  
similar view of these fine coffees we get.  These are simply not the  
same as the mass produced Robusta coffees that line the store  
shelves.  At every step in from selection of the coffee tree to our  
extra effort Tom puts into cupping and selecting, people have put  
their lives into making these coffees special.  When you compare how  
much of your life goes into the cost of moving up to a quality  
grinder with how much others have put into bringing you the best  
coffees in the world, it really takes very little to respect what  
they have done.  To do otherwise would be like taking a prime rib  
roast, tossing it in the microwave, and nuking it for an hour.  An  
animal died for that!
        pecan jim
On Sep 24, 2007, at 10:46 PM, Sandy Andina wrote:
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I hate to get this discussion =
going again.  But, if you move from store bought pre-ground coffee to =
home roasted Sweet Maria coffee ground by running over it with a semi =
that has just flattened some road kill, you will enjoy it because it =
will be much better than what you have experienced in the past.  The =
only way you are going to come close to letting the coffee live up to =
it's flavor potential is to carve it into relatively consistent pieces =
with a good grinder.  In The River Cottage Meat Book, Hugh =
Fearnley-Whittingstall argues that you should do all you reasonably can =
to make the most out of the meat you are cooking because after all, an =
animal died for it.  I take a similar view of these fine coffees we =
get.  These are simply not the same as the mass produced Robusta =
coffees that line the store shelves.  At every step in from selection =
of the coffee tree to our extra effort Tom puts into cupping and =
selecting, people have put their lives into making these coffees =
special.  When you compare how much of your life goes into the cost of =
moving up to a quality grinder with how much others have put into =
bringing you the best coffees in the world, it really takes very little =
to respect what they have done.  To do otherwise would be like taking =
a prime rib roast, tossing it in the microwave, and nuking it for an =
hour.  An animal died for that!       pecan =
jim
On Sep 24, 2007, at 10:46 PM, Sandy Andina =
wrote:
bottom line is that if your grinder makes coffee you = enjoy, it's good. On Sep 24, 2007, at 10:43 PM, Robert = Gulley wrote:
Welcome aboard, or should I say out into = the sunshine, JoAnne! Don't be ashamed of your grinder - it is after all = a burr grinder, and those make for good coffee! People get carried = away in the discussions and passions run high, but in the end, it is all = about enjoying the cup of coffee you have in your hand at the end of the = day, so to speak. Again, welcome! RG At 09:24 PM = 9/24/2007, you wrote: I have been lurking on this list now for = about a week and finally  moved away from the digest to = individual posts.  Maybe a mistake?   I'm = overwhelmed. Sandywww.sass-music.com
= = --Apple-Mail-4--185550578--

2) From: Robert Gulley
ARGH!!! We got it! The best is the best - but we cannot always have 
the best at any given moment in our lives, but we can CHOOSE to enjoy 
where we are at the moment, and that is what I choose to do. I have a 
new Yama (not Cona), but I love it for what it has done for my 
coffee. I have a Mocha pot with an aerolatte (can't afford thousands 
for a real espresso right now); I have Braun kf600 which consistently 
reaches 200  degrees for my drip coffee with 176 degrees in the 
thermal pot - love it (yes, swiss gold filter); I have a bodum french 
press - great; and a burr grinder which does a great job being 
consistent with it's grinds, but, gasp!, it's a capresso 551. I 
homeroast in a IR2, best investment I've made to "up" the quality of 
my coffee. Right now, today, I have four, count 'em four ways to make 
great coffee, and the ability to thoroughly enjoy each cup. I'm in 
coffee heaven! And it can only get better from here. Life is good. I 
am not grieving over what I don't have, but enjoying what I do.
Robert (off to have that first cup of the morning" Gulley
At 08:15 AM 9/25/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>

3) From: Alchemist John
Robert,
ARGH!!!  I am sorry to say, you don't have it.  The "lesson" is 
NOT  "The best is the best".  It is "do all you reasonably can".  NO 
ONE is saying you are not doing your best.  Passions may indeed run 
high, but reality does play a roll.  The response to the grinder 
question has ALWAYS been "get the best grinder YOU CAN AFFORD", NOT 
"get the most expensive grinder".
Rant over (until the next time).
At 05:48 9/25/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>

4) From: Robert Gulley
John
The original post was implying embarrassment over having a cheap burr 
grinder - what I was saying (and I believe what Sandy was saying) was 
enjoy where you are at TODAY - if you can afford a better grinder - 
great. But until you can get that better grinder enjoy where you are 
right now!  We just got through hashing out the grinder issue, which 
I am sure JoAnne (the original poster) has read since she has been 
lurking for a while.
Robert
At 10:04 AM 9/25/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>

5) From: Joseph Robertson
Robert,
I'm there , thank you for the clarification. That's the problem with these
threads, we and others loose track of the original post so the response to a
post often comes from passion and emotion instead of clear understanding of
the topic or question at hand. I think if we were all in a room together
this would be much less confusing and or frustrating.
JoeR
On 9/25/07, Robert Gulley <2bopen4all> wrote:
<Snip>

6) From: Robert Gulley
Joe
Absolutely! Always the failing of the written word, I'm afraid.
Thanks -
Robert
At 10:45 AM 9/25/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>

7) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
And what is the "Best" grinder anyway. Even in the stratospheric realm of
$2k+ espresso grinders Top Baristi preferences vary. Fortunately even the
brewing method which requires the highest attention to grind quality (i.e.
espresso) moderately priced grinders like Rocky can compete "in the cup"
head to head with the likes of a Mazzer Robur. Interestingly the Rocky
faired better than the Mazzer Mini . Rocky tied the Mazzer SJ with both
splitting their rounds with the Robur in the H-B Titan Grinder Project
'bouts' Jim Schulman ran while the MM lost all four rounds.http://www.home-barista.com/forums/titan-grinder-project-can-it-beat-mazzer-robur-t4499.html
 
My opinion had been that Rocky was equal in the cup with the SJ since I
first got a SJ. Jim seems to have vindicative my poor pallet! Of course
Rocky looses being stepped when it comes to the ability to micro-fine grind.
So Rocky is still my home daily workhorse (for all grinding) since he's
smaller fitting the very limited counted space better than the SJ. But when
seriously tuning straight shots SJ wins hands down.
 
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
www.mcKonaKoffee.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/ 
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Alchemist John
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 7:04 AM
Robert,
ARGH!!!  I am sorry to say, you don't have it.  The "lesson" is NOT  "The
best is the best".  It is "do all you reasonably can".  NO ONE is saying you
are not doing your best.  Passions may indeed run high, but reality does
play a roll.  The response to the grinder question has ALWAYS been "get the
best grinder YOU CAN AFFORD", NOT "get the most expensive grinder".
Rant over (until the next time).
At 05:48 9/25/2007, you wrote:
 ARGH!!!We got it! The best is the best - but we cannot always have the best
at any given moment in our lives, but we can CHOOSE to enjoy where we are at
the moment, and that is what I choose to do. I have a new Yama (not Cona),
but I love it for what it has done for my coffee. I have a Mocha pot with an
aerolatte (can't afford thousands for a real espresso right now); I have
Braun kf600 which consistently reaches 200  degrees for my drip coffee with
176 degrees in the thermal pot - love it (yes, swiss gold filter); I have a
bodum french press - great; and a burr grinder which does a great job being
consistent with it's grinds, but, gasp!, it's a capresso 551. I homeroast in
a IR2, best investment I've made to "up" the quality of my coffee. Right
now, today, I have four, count 'em four ways to make great coffee, and the
ability to thoroughly enjoy each cup. I'm in coffee heaven! And it can only
get better from here. Life is good. I am not grieving over what I don't
have, but enjoying what I do.
Robert (off to have that first cup of the morning" Gulley
At 08:15 AM 9/25/2007, you wrote:
I hate to get this discussion going again.  But, if you move from store
bought pre-ground coffee to home roasted Sweet Maria coffee ground by
running over it with a semi that has just flattened some road kill, you will
enjoy it because it will be much better than what you have experienced in
the past.  The only way you are going to come close to letting the coffee
live up to it's flavor potential is to carve it into relatively consistent
pieces with a good grinder.  In The River Cottage Meat Book, Hugh
Fearnley-Whittingstall argues that you should do all you reasonably can to
make the most out of the meat you are cooking because after all, an animal
died for it.  I take a similar view of these fine coffees we get.  These are
simply not the same as the mass produced Robusta coffees that line the store
shelves.  At every step in from selection of the coffee tree to our extra
effort Tom puts into cupping and selecting, people have put their lives into
making these coffees special.  When you compare how much of your life goes
into the cost of moving up to a quality grinder with how much others have
put into bringing you the best coffees in the world, it really takes very
little to respect what they have done.  To do otherwise would be like taking
a prime rib roast, tossing it in the microwave, and nuking it for an hour.
An animal died for that!
       pecan jim

8) From: Floyd Lozano
This is my finding too - you may recall my troubles months ago with dialing
in espresso on the Gaggia Evolution, never getting a good pull or a shot
that took longer than 18 sec to pull.  I bought a used SJ from a closing
coffee shop, not a steal but a deal at $350.  That problem with the shots
went away immediately.  Maybe I could have gotten around this with the
simple Rocky stepless mod (i.e. large hose clamp), but I do know that this
route worked awesome for me.  And I don't have to worry about retuning for
drip / espresso duties!
-F
On 9/25/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>

9) From: Brett Mason
Very nice to see the Zass performs with the Big Boys at about $50 for
purchase on eBay and less than a minute grinding for espresso....  What's
great is the scientific evaluation that puts performance to a measurement
rather than merely a perception...
Thanks Jim !!!http://www.home-barista.com/forums/titan-grinder-project-can-it-beat-mazzer-robur-t4499-20.htmlTo those who feel like a grinder is just asking too much, I can imagine your
disappointment.  Not now, of course, because you really like your setup.
The disappointment will come one day, after you've gone through 50 or 250
pounds of greens, and then discover a truly great cup that results from
ompimal grinder...  It's THAT disappontment that I feel for you...
A man ate Oat Bran for thrirty five years, and lived to his 90's... He died
and went to heaven, where he was met by his wife...  She asked what he
thought, and he replied "I could have been HERE for 30 years, but instead I
have been eating Oat Bran."
You don't need a better grinder....
Brett
On 9/25/07, Floyd Lozano  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

10) From: Les
I wasn't going to post this until after the fact.  However, just to let the
list know, some time next month I will have the use of a MACAP MK7R for
about two weeks.  I am going to have the great Conical shoot out at my
house.   I will be doing some tests of the MACAP with its 68mm Conicals vs
my Mazzer Major with its 83mm flat burrs, and the David (Zassenhaus) will be
taking on Goliath (MACAP)  I should have my Big Zass by then.  So The shoot
out will be between the MACAP, two Zass grinders and one Trosser.  It should
be fun.  I have plenty of coffee ordered from Tom and will be roasting up 8
pounds of one of my favorite espresso blends.  One thing different from what
I have read on the Home-Braista site is I am going to make this a Blind
taste test.  The first round will be cupping.  The second round will be Vac
pot and the third round will be espresso shots.  I will dial in each grinder
by looking at the shots before pulling the blind shots for tasting.  Becky
is going to make sure I don't know which is which, and when the final
results are in>>>>>>>.  I will know which grinder I like best and hopefully
I can give some objective observations to the list.
Les
On 9/25/07, Jeff Anderson  wrote:
<Snip>

11) From: Barry Luterman
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Les If possible try a Zass wall grinder. Zass doesn't seem to be making =
them anymore. I figured that they might become collectors items so I =
picked one up on e-bay, for speculation, the other day. I got it cheap =
and it has never ground any coffee. I think people simply used them for =
kitchen decorations. The wall grinder has a much longer and stronger =
handle than the portables. In addition, they are screwed into the wall =
and do not need to be held in place by ones knees or muscles. I ground =
Turkish  powder coffee in no time. I was amazed it completely ran =
circles around my 169 and my old Rocky.

12) From: Sandy Andina
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Ah, but nonetheless, if that Cuisinart burr grinder is all she can  
afford, she should not have to refrain from enjoying the best coffee  
just because she cannot bring it to the fulfillment of its ultimate  
potential.  Coffee conoisseurship (or is it "connaissance?") is a  
wonderful "society" to join. But having the best possible equipment  
should be a destination, not the price of admission. (But I agree it  
is always advisable to reach that destination as quickly as one can  
afford).
On Sep 25, 2007, at 7:15 AM, Jim Gundlach wrote:
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Sandy
www.sandyandina.com
www.sass-music.com
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Ah, but nonetheless, if that Cuisinart burr grinder is all she can =
afford, she should not have to refrain from enjoying the best coffee =
just because she cannot bring it to the fulfillment of its ultimate =
potential.  Coffee conoisseurship (or is it "connaissance?") is a =
wonderful "society" to join. But having the best possible equipment =
should be a destination, not the price of admission. (But I agree it is =
always advisable to reach that destination as quickly as one can =
afford).
On Sep 25, 2007, at 7:15 AM, Jim Gundlach =
wrote:
I hate to get this discussion going again.  But, if you = move from store bought pre-ground coffee to home roasted Sweet Maria = coffee ground by running over it with a semi that has just flattened = some road kill, you will enjoy it because it will be much better than = what you have experienced in the past.  The only way you are going to = come close to letting the coffee live up to it's flavor potential is to = carve it into relatively consistent pieces with a good grinder.  In = The River Cottage Meat Book, Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall argues that you = should do all you reasonably can to make the most out of the meat you = are cooking because after all, an animal died for it.  I take a = similar view of these fine coffees we get.  These are simply not the = same as the mass produced Robusta coffees that line the store shelves.  = At every step in from selection of the coffee tree to our extra effort = Tom puts into cupping and selecting, people have put their lives into = making these coffees special.  When you compare how much of your life = goes into the cost of moving up to a quality grinder with how much = others have put into bringing you the best coffees in the world, it = really takes very little to respect what they have done.  To do = otherwise would be like taking a prime rib roast, tossing it in the = microwave, and nuking it for an hour.  An animal died for that!  =     pecan jim On Sep 24, 2007, at 10:46 PM, Sandy = Andina wrote:
bottom line is that if your grinder makes coffee you = enjoy, it's good. On Sep 24, 2007, at 10:43 PM, Robert = Gulley wrote:
Welcome aboard, or should I say out into = the sunshine, JoAnne! Don't be ashamed of your grinder - it is after all = a burr grinder, and those make for good coffee! People get carried = away in the discussions and passions run high, but in the end, it is all = about enjoying the cup of coffee you have in your hand at the end of the = day, so to speak. Again, welcome! RG At 09:24 PM = 9/24/2007, you wrote: I have been lurking on this list now for = about a week and finally  moved away from the digest to = individual posts.  Maybe a mistake?   I'm = overwhelmed. Sandywww.sass-music.com
= = Sandywww.sass-music.com
= = --Apple-Mail-122--159472880--

13) From: raymanowen
The answer is in the cup.
It would be instructive, even if unlikely to occur, to do a blind
cupping of a single lot of green coffee. Roasted en masse and with
each grinder set to the same pitch, the only variable would be Which
Grinder does the Best Job.
I have a sneaking suspicion the results of this grind off would point
to the heaviest machines, and the ones with the largest, hardest and
sharpest burrs. The heavy machines create the most stable geometry for
the cutting burrs.
From one coffee particle to the next, of the hundreds created, size
and geometric shape would be constant under the microscope in the post
cupping grind check.
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
"Plurimodal" is just a word- so is Pferdescheiße.
On 9/25/07, Jeff Anderson  wrote:
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-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the
Mighty Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

14) From: Brett Mason
Hi Jeff,
That wasn't ,eant to be a "bury them with data" type email from me.  What I
noted was that the Zass compared very similarly to the commercial grinders
tested....  There's an assurance here that a hand-held quality grinder
purchase will return high value for the low cost....
There has been a long diatribe about how manual grinders take a long time to
grind, offer poor control, and are over-rated and/or expensive....  The
problem is that this just isn't true...
One key element is that the grinder is likely more important than the
brewing equipment in the list of what items contribute to the best tasting
coffee...  The grinder is core to good coffee, and people do need to know
that...
Cheers,
Brett
On 9/25/07, Jeff Anderson  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

15) From: Jim Gundlach
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Les,
    Why don't you throw in a whirly blade just to insure variability.
       pecan jim
On Sep 25, 2007, at 2:13 PM, Les wrote:
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Les,   Why don't you =
throw in a whirly blade just to insure variability.  
      pecan = jim On Sep 25, 2007, at 2:13 PM, Les = wrote:
I wasn't going to post this until after the fact.  = However, just to let the list know, some time next month I will have the = use of a MACAP MK7R for about two weeks.  I am going to have the great = Conical shoot out at my house.   I will be doing some tests of the = MACAP with its 68mm Conicals vs my Mazzer Major with its 83mm flat = burrs, and the David (Zassenhaus) will be taking on Goliath (MACAP)  I = should have my Big Zass by then.  So The shoot out will be between the = MACAP, two Zass grinders and one Trosser.  It should be fun.  I have = plenty of coffee ordered from Tom and will be roasting up 8 pounds of = one of my favorite espresso blends.  One thing different from what I = have read on the Home-Braista site is I am going to make this a Blind = taste test.  The first round will be cupping.  The second round will = be Vac pot and the third round will be espresso shots.  I will dial in = each grinder by looking at the shots before pulling the blind shots for = tasting.  Becky is going to make sure I don't know which is which, and = when the final results are in>>>>>>>.  I will = know which grinder I like best and hopefully I can give some objective = observations to the list.   Les   = On 9/25/07, Jeff Anderson <jeff221> = wrote: The Zass "performs with the big = boys?" I went to the link but it's apparently over my head. = Specifically, the Zass compares favorably to which big boys? Rocky, = Mazzer? Brett = Mason wrote: Very nice to see the Zass = performs with the Big Boys at about $50 for purchase on eBay and less = than a minute grinding for espresso....  What's great is the = scientific evaluation that puts performance to a measurement rather than = merely a perception...   Thanks Jim !!! =   http://www.home-barista.com/forums/titan-grinder-project=-can-it-beat-mazzer-robur-t4499-20.html To those who = feel like a grinder is just asking too much, I can imagine your = disappointment.  Not now, of course, because you really like your = setup.  The disappointment will come one day, after you've gone = through 50 or 250 pounds of greens, and then discover a truly great cup = that results from ompimal grinder...  It's THAT disappontment that I = feel for you... =   = --Apple-Mail-5--144283953--

16) From: Joseph Robertson
Les,
Wow, this is great. What timing for me. My only grinder has always been a
hand grinder. I just got my first Zass. I wanted to replace my old Deines.
"I may have mispelled that".
They are of similar vintage but the Zass can't grind as fine. My challange
has been to match a hand grinder with my new espresso machine. So far the
shots have been poor.
Are you taking reservations for the shoot out? :)
Do you have an approx. date next month. I would love to see/taste this test.
I'm still not quite to cupping 101 yet but working on it. The results of
this test will be interest to many novices and professionals alike.
I'm going to be out of town part of next month but I would love to
participate if at all possible.
Joe Robertson
On 9/25/07, Les  wrote:
<Snip>


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