HomeRoast Digest


Topic: how to lengthen pull time? (19 msgs / 734 lines)
1) From: John Crippen
Good morning,
After years of reading about the joys of espresso, I finally ordered a Miss
Silvia.  Even after just a few days, I can already see what all of you were
talking about.    I am prepared to spend months learning to get better and
better at using Miss Silvia, but I have one quick question.  Is it OK for
the extraction time to be shorter?  My shots start and finish within 10
seconds.  If I wait 20 or 25 seconds, I've got 6 ounces of not-espresso in
the cup.  I'm trying finer grinding and more pressure on the tamping.
Anything else or should I not worry about this?
Thanks,
John Crippen

2) From: Derek Bradford
Hi John,
I'm sure many people are going to chime in here.  Some even while I
finish my post.  In a nutshell, 10 seconds is far too short for proper
extraction, but you're going about fixing the problem correctly.  You
really do want to aim for 25-28 seconds extraction time, closer to 27
or 28 being ideal.  You can only tamp so hard, and should be tamping
to about 30lbs of pressure.  You can measure this by tamping on a
bathroom scale until you get the feel for it.  The important thing is
not to change more than one variable at a time.  Most people recommend
changing only the grind to adjust shot times; always tamp the same
amount.  Get a feel for a 30lb tamp, and keep grinding finer until
your shot times improve.
Here's a good primer on espresso technique:http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-guide-skills.htmlWhat are you using for a grinder?
Welcome to the dark side...
--Derek
On 10/6/07, John Crippen  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Check out my blog: www.blynic.com
Every path but your own is the path of fate.  --Thoreau

3) From: John Crippen
Thanks Derek.  I embrace the dark side!  I grind with a  Solis Maestro Plus,
stock burrs.  I really thought I'd be able to use it for a while, then
upgrade to a Rocky down the road.  Maybe the road is a lot shorter than I
thought.......
On 10/6/07, Derek Bradford  wrote:
<Snip>

4) From: Derek Bradford
I think the general consensus on the list is the SMP is capable for
espresso, but one can always do better.  Keep working on your
technique.  You may not do as well as you could with a more capable
grinder, but you can certainly expect much better than your ten-second
gushers.
If you've been on the list any time at all, you've likely seen at
least one thread about the importance of grinders.  There are dozens,
and they all lead to the same conclusion: Grinder is Paramount.
Myself included, I think most people who start with espresso
underestimate the importance of the grinder.  If I were doing it all
over again, I'd buy the grinder first and save up for the espresso
machine.  You couldn't have convinced me of that for the world 3 years
ago, though.
On 10/6/07, John Crippen  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Check out my blog: www.blynic.com
Every path but your own is the path of fate.  --Thoreau

5) From: Jim Gundlach
John,
    What grinder do you have.   Remember that the espresso machine is  
an accessory to the grinder, not the other way around.
      pecan jim
On Oct 6, 2007, at 5:07 AM, John Crippen wrote:
<Snip>

6) From: John Crippen
My trusty Solis Maestro Plus, stock burrs.
On 10/6/07, Jim Gundlach  wrote:
<Snip>

7) From: Jim Gundlach
--Apple-Mail-1-764726672
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset-ASCII;
	delsp=yes;
	format=flowed
The Solis Maestro Plus should grind fine enough for espresso.   
However, in the past the Solis burr support structure was not solid  
enough to keep the burrs from hitting each other at the fine  
settings.  I don't know if this is still a problem.  I would start at  
the finest grind setting and see what you get.  Also, the Solis can  
be assembled in a way that changes the range of settings.  You might  
have one that is incorrectly assembled.
      pecan jim
On Oct 6, 2007, at 6:59 AM, John Crippen wrote:
<Snip>
--Apple-Mail-1-764726672
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charsetO-8859-1
The Solis Maestro Plus should =
grind fine enough for espresso.  However, in the past the Solis burr =
support structure was not solid enough to keep the burrs from hitting =
each other at the fine settings.  I don't know if this is still a =
problem.  I would start at the finest grind setting and see what =
you get.  Also, the Solis can be assembled in a way that changes the =
range of settings.  You might have one that is incorrectly =
assembled.     pecan jim
On Oct 6, 2007, at 6:59 =
AM, John Crippen wrote:
My trusty = Solis Maestro Plus, stock burrs. On 10/6/07, Jim = Gundlach <pecanjim> = wrote: John,     What grinder do you have.   Remember that = the espresso machine is an accessory to the grinder, not the other = way around.       pecan jim On Oct 6, 2007, at 5:07 = AM, John Crippen wrote: > Good morning, > > After = years of reading about the joys of espresso, I finally > ordered a = Miss Silvia.  Even after just a few days, I can already > see = what all of you were talking about.    I am prepared to = spend > months learning to get better and better at using Miss = Silvia, but > I have one quick question.  Is it OK for the = extraction time to be > shorter?  My shots start and finish = within 10 seconds.  If I wait > 20 or 25 seconds, I've got 6 = ounces of not-espresso in the cup. > I'm trying finer grinding and = more pressure on the tamping. > Anything else or should I not = worry about this? > > Thanks, > > John = Crippen homeroas= t mailing list =http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change = your personal list settings (digest options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go = to http://=sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings = = --Apple-Mail-1-764726672--

8) From: Terry Stockdale
I didn't have a Plus, but I was able to use my Solis Maestro for 
about 6 months of grinding for my Silvia.  At that point, the Solis 
Maestro was producing so much dust that it was barely suitable for 
drip.  After another 2 months, my new Rocky became my sole grinder - 
handling drip and espresso every day.
The Rocky made a very significant change (for the better) in flavor, 
too.  My latest addition was one of the Thor Tampers sold by Sweet 
Maria's, which I got last Christmas.   It looks like the new ridged 
tampers might be interesting, but I really like the standard one I 
bought.  Somehow, I don't have to work with it nearly as much as I 
did with my Ergo Tamper.  Just like it up and press -- and I'm 
probably going nowhere near 30 pounds pressure.  Maybe it's the 
wear-and-tear on the Rocky's burrs, which have ground about 300# by 
now, but I'm loath to change anything with the flavors I"m getting...
Terry Stockdalehttp://www.terrystockdale.com/coffeeAt 07:13 AM 10/6/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>

9) From: Alchemist John
And there you go.  That is all the good and expect advise you will 
need.  You are going in the right direction.
1)  Grind finer. That is key.  It IS your main parameter to 
change.  No amount of tamp pressure will make up for a grossly coarse 
grind.  Grind to choking level, then back off a notch or two.  If you 
are all the way down on the grinder, something is up (wrong) with the grinder.
2)  Tamping pressure will only make a subtle difference in pour time 
once you are over around 10 lbs.
3)  The solis will last 6 months or so before the burr assembly 
begins to wear and the burrs dull down radically for high speed collisions.
One final theoretical problem could be if you are channeling 
massively.  What color is the pour within a couple seconds?
At 07:33 10/6/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
John Nanci
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

10) From: MichaelB
<< I am prepared to spend months learning to get better and better...>>
It's actually a lifetime journey; and amazing how even after decades of
striving for espresso perfection there is always room for improvement.
One point not explicitly mentioned yet is distribution. Better grinders
produce fluffier and more uniform grinds, but also spew them out in a more
distributed and less clumpier fashion. These two factors together improve
the quality of your pours. But even with your current grinder you can take
some remedial steps to improve distribution. Seehttp://www.home-barista.com/weiss-distribution-technique.html.The WDT
should give you noticeable improvement immediately.
On 10/6/07, John Crippen  wrote:
<Snip>
--
MichaelB

11) From: Sandy Andina
--Apple-Mail-85-779809824
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset-ASCII;
	delsp=yes;
	format=flowed
More coffee--"updose" so that the grounds pile up in a mound above  
your portafilter. Then take a straightedge and "chop" across the rim  
to settle the grounds and avoid channeling, and finally level and  
distribute evenly before you tamp. Tamp firmly, tap lightly to  
dislodge grounds from the sides, then tamp hard (at least 30#--use a  
bathroom scale or get one of those spring-loaded-handle tampers  
(e.g., Espro) that clicks when you reach 30# of pressure). Another  
thing that makes all the difference is fresh roast (3-10 days, no  
more than 14 days old) and grinding IMMEDIATELY before pulling the  
shot.  The grind should feel like fine sand, not granulated sugar or  
powder.
On Oct 6, 2007, at 5:07 AM, John Crippen wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy
www.sandyandina.com
www.sass-music.com
--Apple-Mail-85-779809824
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charsetO-8859-1
More coffee--"updose" so that the grounds pile up in a mound above your =
portafilter. Then take a straightedge and "chop" across the rim to =
settle the grounds and avoid channeling, and finally level and =
distribute evenly before you tamp. Tamp firmly, tap lightly to dislodge =
grounds from the sides, then tamp hard (at least 30#--use a bathroom =
scale or get one of those spring-loaded-handle tampers (e.g., Espro) =
that clicks when you reach 30# of pressure). Another thing that makes =
all the difference is fresh roast (3-10 days, no more than 14 days old) =
and grinding IMMEDIATELY before pulling the shot.  The grind should =
feel like fine sand, not granulated sugar or powder.
On Oct =
6, 2007, at 5:07 AM, John Crippen wrote:
Good = morning, After years of reading about the joys of espresso, I = finally ordered a Miss Silvia.  Even after just a few days, I can = already see what all of you were talking about.    I am prepared = to spend months learning to get better and better at using Miss Silvia, = but I have one quick question.  Is it OK for the extraction time to be = shorter?  My shots start and finish within 10 seconds.  If I wait 20 = or 25 seconds, I've got 6 ounces of not-espresso in the cup.  I'm = trying finer grinding and more pressure on the tamping.  Anything else = or should I not worry about this? Thanks, John = Crippen Sandywww.sass-music.com
= = --Apple-Mail-85-779809824--

12) From: Sandy Andina
--Apple-Mail-86-779897415
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset-ASCII;
	delsp=yes;
	format=flowed
You should be able to grind fine enough with a SM+ to get 25-second  
pulls. I did. It's just that Rocky and then the Mazzer Mini gave much  
better and more "tunable" results.
On Oct 6, 2007, at 6:11 AM, John Crippen wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy
www.sandyandina.com
www.sass-music.com
--Apple-Mail-86-779897415
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charsetO-8859-1
You should be able to grind fine enough with a SM+ to get 25-second =
pulls. I did. It's just that Rocky and then the Mazzer Mini gave much =
better and more "tunable" results.
On Oct 6, 2007, at 6:11 =
AM, John Crippen wrote:
Thanks = Derek.  I embrace the dark side!  I grind with a  Solis Maestro = Plus, stock burrs.  I really thought I'd be able to use it for a = while, then upgrade to a Rocky down the road.  Maybe the road is a lot = shorter than I thought....... On = 10/6/07, Derek Bradford <derekbradford> = wrote: Hi John, I'm sure many people are going to chime in = here.  Some even while I finish my post.  In a nutshell, 10 = seconds is far too short for proper extraction, but you're going = about fixing the problem correctly.  You really do want to aim = for 25-28 seconds extraction time, closer to 27 or 28 being = ideal.  You can only tamp so hard, and should be tamping to about = 30lbs of pressure.  You can measure this by tamping on a bathroom = scale until you get the feel for it.  The important thing is not = to change more than one variable at a time.  Most people = recommend changing only the grind to adjust shot times; always tamp = the same amount.  Get a feel for a 30lb tamp, and keep grinding = finer until your shot times improve. Here's a good primer on = espresso technique: http://www=.home-barista.com/espresso-guide-skills.html What are you = using for a grinder? Welcome to the dark = side... --Derek On 10/6/07, John Crippen <john.crippen> = wrote: > Good morning, > > After years of reading = about the joys of espresso, I finally ordered a Miss > = Silvia.  Even after just a few days, I can already see what all of = you were > talking about.    I am prepared to spend months = learning to get better and > better at using Miss Silvia, but I = have one quick question.  Is it OK for > the extraction time = to be shorter?  My shots start and finish within 10 > = seconds.  If I wait 20 or 25 seconds, I've got 6 ounces of = not-espresso in > the cup.  I'm trying finer grinding and more = pressure on the tamping. > Anything else or should I not worry = about this? > > Thanks, > > John = Crippen > -- Check out my blog: www.blynic.com Every path but = your own is the path of fate.  --Thoreau = homeroast mailing = list http://li=sts.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast To change your = personal list settings (digest options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go to = http://=sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings Sandywww.sass-music.com
= = --Apple-Mail-86-779897415--

13) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Sandy, very good "Chicago Chop" PF build and grind texture descriptions. One
caution, when overdosing PF check build making sure dry puck is not touching
the PF screen when locked. Good rule of thumb is a "nickel" thickness
clearance. With Silvia post pull should have a screw indent in the puck but
not pre-pull. Also, too fresh coffee will pull overly fast. Generally
speaking three days rest is the barest minimum for espresso shots IMO.
 
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
www.mcKonaKoffee.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/ 
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Sandy Andina
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 9:25 AM
More coffee--"updose" so that the grounds pile up in a mound above your
portafilter. Then take a straightedge and "chop" across the rim to settle
the grounds and avoid channeling, and finally level and distribute evenly
before you tamp. Tamp firmly, tap lightly to dislodge grounds from the
sides, then tamp hard (at least 30#--use a bathroom scale or get one of
those spring-loaded-handle tampers (e.g., Espro) that clicks when you reach
30# of pressure). Another thing that makes all the difference is fresh roast
(3-10 days, no more than 14 days old) and grinding IMMEDIATELY before
pulling the shot. The grind should feel like fine sand, not granulated sugar
or powder.

14) From: stereoplegic
the Weiss distribution technique has been critical for eliminating my 
fast shots with my *$ Barista burr grinder (same burrs as yours). 
clumping will make your shots channel (and thus pull too fast). the 
Weiss technique acts like the doser on espresso grinders (which the 
Maestro Plus doesn't have), eliminating the clumping.
MichaelB wrote:
<Snip>

15) From: Joseph Robertson
John,
Some very nice tips and words from folks with much more experience than me.
I will be a junior espresso jedi for some time.
I will share my path and 2 cents to java heaven so far.
Last spring in Long Beach Cal. I was very fortunate to attend SCAA
convention and take classes. One of the classes was intermediate espresso. I
was really lucky to have a former USBC champ Matt, at my station helping us.
I didn't need any coffee to be buzzed on this opportunity. With all this top
shelf instruction I was able to pull what the instructors called a perfect
shot after only 5 or 6 times up to bat.
Ask me if that has happened again... Not to this day yet. I have only
started to mass the tools to do it.
A baby gaggia off ebay. Just recently a used commercial grinder, La San
Marco 1996 vintage. ( This alone has made all the difference for me) My
training wheel tamper, Espro to help eliminate one variable.
The rule of thumb they set us in the class was  the 30/30 rule. 30mils in 30
seconds.
As I have gleaned from this wonderful group here, 30/30 is only a starting
point or target. Many factors will come into to play to vary that.
I'm happy with my results so far but I have a lot of beans to roast, coffee
to grind, and shots to pull to come close to some of the Java Jedi I have
met here.
Keep us posted on your progress John, following you and others here is
really inspiring.
JoeR
On 10/6/07, John Crippen  wrote:
<Snip>

16) From: John Crippen
All,
Thanks so much for all the advice. I've been out all day shopping for
espressories (write it down, you can use it later).  I will enter the fray
again tomorrow morning.  I am encouraged.
Saludos,
John
On 10/6/07, Joseph Robertson  wrote:
<Snip>

17) From: Sandy Andina
--Apple-Mail-87-817389287
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset-ASCII;
	delsp=yes;
	format=flowed
Matt was looking over our shoulders when I took the Intelligentsia  
Barista Training class a couple of summers ago. (Amber and Ellie,  
both finalists, were my hands-on instructors). Matt was my son  
Gordy's instructor when he took the class last year.  What a trip and  
a half to work on a PID's 3-group LaMarzocco! God shot after God  
shot, rosetta pours on the first try.   What was really fascinating  
was watching Amber and Ellie deconstruct a shot in 5-second  
intervals--lined up 5 sets of shot glasses and switched them every 5  
seconds so we could see and taste each stage of how a shot develops  
(and deteriorates) over the course of 25 seconds.
On Oct 6, 2007, at 1:35 PM, Joseph Robertson wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy
www.sandyandina.com
www.sass-music.com
--Apple-Mail-87-817389287
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charsetO-8859-1
Matt was looking over our shoulders when I took the Intelligentsia =
Barista Training class a couple of summers ago. (Amber and Ellie, both =
finalists, were my hands-on instructors). Matt was my son Gordy's =
instructor when he took the class last year.  What a trip and a half =
to work on a PID's 3-group LaMarzocco! God shot after God shot, rosetta =
pours on the first try.   What was really fascinating was watching =
Amber and Ellie deconstruct a shot in 5-second intervals--lined up 5 =
sets of shot glasses and switched them every 5 seconds so we could see =
and taste each stage of how a shot develops (and deteriorates) over the =
course of 25 seconds.
On Oct 6, 2007, at 1:35 PM, Joseph =
Robertson wrote:
One of the classes was = intermediate espresso. I was really lucky to have a former USBC champ = Matt, at my station helping us. Sandywww.sass-music.com
= = --Apple-Mail-87-817389287--

18) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Indeed some trainers with serious creds! I can only hope (and keep working
at) some day reaching their skill levels. Speaking of PID'd 3grp LM's,
Thursday we had a great time getting to know our 3grp PID'd Linea. She's in
the final burn in stages follow her complete tear down and rebuild by
Nuclear Reactor Engineer turned La Marzocco Engineer Extraordinare Mike
(just plain). Looking forward to many years with her! There will of course
be a List party in the future to get to know both the Bad Boy and Miss
Linea:-)
 
Was funny trying to dump her steam power. After 3 minutes non-stop steaming
on the high flow wand steam pressure was finally down to about my Bric' who
taint actually a slouch for her class. Could have started with a half gallon
of milk in a single pitcher and had the steam power to microfoam it no
problem! Now with both wands full open could dump the steam pressure in a
bit over a minute so no steaming two half gallon pitchers of milk at once
for a couple super Charbuck sized drinks:-)  Don't even try to swamp her
pulling shots, she'll beat down a team of baristas working all three groups.
 
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
www.mcKonaKoffee.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/ 
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Sandy Andina
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 7:51 PM
Matt was looking over our shoulders when I took the Intelligentsia Barista
Training class a couple of summers ago. (Amber and Ellie, both finalists,
were my hands-on instructors). Matt was my son Gordy's instructor when he
took the class last year. What a trip and a half to work on a PID's 3-group
LaMarzocco! God shot after God shot, rosetta pours on the first try. What
was really fascinating was watching Amber and Ellie deconstruct a shot in
5-second intervals--lined up 5 sets of shot glasses and switched them every
5 seconds so we could see and taste each stage of how a shot develops (and
deteriorates) over the course of 25 seconds.
On Oct 6, 2007, at 1:35 PM, Joseph Robertson wrote:
 

19) From: Sandy Andina
--Apple-Mail-89-819827551
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset-ASCII;
	delsp=yes;
	format=flowed
Let me know and I'll try to book a coffeehouse--or house concert--in  
the area. Got a couple of pals in Eugene who offered to gig-share.
On Oct 6, 2007, at 10:13 PM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy
www.sandyandina.com
www.sass-music.com
--Apple-Mail-89-819827551
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charsetO-8859-1
Let me know and I'll try to book a coffeehouse--or house concert--in the =
area. Got a couple of pals in Eugene who offered to =
gig-share.
On Oct 6, 2007, at 10:13 PM, miKe mcKoffee =
wrote:
There will of course be a List = party in the future to get to know both the Bad Boy and Miss = Linea:-) Sandywww.sass-music.com
= = --Apple-Mail-89-819827551--


HomeRoast Digest