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Topic: learning to like c, c+ roasts (15 msgs / 548 lines)
1) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Claus_Th=F8gersen?=
HI,
The thread on commercial roasting, finally made up my mind, to confess that 
I am not at all into roasting any bean lighter than c+, and most times I 
think fc is  the absolute lightest I will ever take a bean.
On the Hottop I usually have about 90 to 120 seconds between last first 
crack and second crack, with some beans you have very early second cracks 
before it gets stable.
Anyway I find that I do not at all like the city and city plus flavours, I 
can taste most of the tastes described by Tom, but often the mix of 
sweetness with  the other tastes simply is not appealing to me! Of course I 
can roast my beans like I want to, and that is what I am doing, and my 
choice of favorit beans, Indonesian, African Colombian and brazils can be 
roasted to the level of roast I prefer.
I just have to live with not beeing in the city camp or maybe at some time 
in my roasting future I will discover the true joys of underroasting grin!
Claus

2) From: True, Dennis W. FC1 (CVN69)
Yes but the beauty is that you understand a FC+ versus a Charbucks 
And enjoy your coffee your way not just what someone else says is
good... 
Education is the Key!
IMHO and as always YMMV
Dennis

3) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Claus_Th=F8gersen?=
Hi,
I am lucky enough to live several hundred miles from the nearest charbucks! 
I am not even sure if there is one in Copenhagen, and if there is I am not 
going to go there anyway.
We have one local roaster here, an American nice Guy but all his coffee is 
really roasted dark, so he must have learnt the wrong things somewhere! 
Anyway the espresso they are pulling at his shop is the best in town, but I 
can pull better shots when I am into the habbit. Currently I am drinking 
homeroasted of course made in the AP, frensh press or most times in the 
Bodum Santos! Very good coffee but I have to get started with  the espresso 
soon again!
Claus
have
Danish

4) From: TERRY TITSWORTH
Claus,
At the present time, I am in agreement with you. I am really struggling to
'enjoy' the city to city+. Right now I am drinking Costa Rica Tarrazu La
Minita roasted to what I preceive as city+. everyone here in the office
(well, the seven other 'club members') express their enjoyment of todays
roast. I asked one of the guys who himself is a homeroaster, if he thought =
I
should go just a little darker with the roast. His reply was NO.
I can't drink the Sumatra that has gone very far into second crack, or has
began to get really shiney, or a too dark Guatemala. But they can't be less
than full city for me.
TerryT
On 10/15/07, Claus Thøgersen  wrote:
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I
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-- 
Start HOT and work your way Down...
Peppers AND Coffee.
[|:{O....[|:{U...
(I'm the tall guy in the middle)

5) From: zane
"On 10/15/07, Claus Thøgersen thoeg
On the Hottop I usually have about 90 to 120 seconds between last first
crack and second crack, with some beans you have very early second cracks
before it gets stable."
++++++
I'm not familiar with the hottop, but that seems likea fast jump between
first and second.
Roasting to city 'can' (and should?) take as long as FC+, so that the bean
roasts evenly throughout.
I hesitate to say should because I rarely roast to C - i just can't get
enough control on my P1 without a variac.
I remember seeing some profiles of C and lighter roasts in Roast magazine
and they talked about 15- 17min roast time.  My experiments with lighter
roasts leave the beans too 'winey' and a bit sour.
i'm a big fan of anything carmelized, so i guess its no surprise i also lik=
e
my coffee FC to FC+.
 happy roasting-
zane

6) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Claus_Th=F8gersen?=
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Hi,
Obviously a  c roast is shorter than a c+ wich a again is shorter than a =
fc roast, at least when roasting on a roaster without control over the =
roast curve. The old HT has a roast profile you can only change by using =
a variac as far as I know, and in general it is or seems to be a fine =
roast curve.
Claus

7) From: Cameron Forde
Hi Claus,
There is one other thing that I learned from the list that one can do
to change the original HT roast profile: wait for a few minutes after
the beep before adding the beans.  My roasts were starting to get a
little long before first crack and so I followed the suggestion (I
think that it was one of the Mikes') and have started to wait three
minutes after the beep before adding beans.  My roasts are a little
quicker to first crack now (14:30-15:30, depending on the bean and
whether the roaster is cold).  This has meant that I am not as much in
a hurry to get the new control panel.  Hope this helps!
Cameron
On 10/15/07, Claus Thøgersen  wrote:
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fc
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ac
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ike
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ceforde

8) From: Paul Carder
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Claus you echo my sentiments about roast levels exactly! I've tried my =
best to enjoy the lighter roasts, but despite Tom's encouragement, I =
just can't enjoy them very much. A darker C+ to FC is about as low as I =
can go, even on a Costa Rica! The darker roasts have provided a lot of =
variety for me. If it has masked varietal character, I can't really =
tell. All I know is, the last 4 years that I've been homeroasting have =
provided the best coffee I've ever drank in my 54 years! Letting Tom =
screen for us the best greens aavailable has only made it better!
PAUL CARDER

9) From: Brian Kamnetz
I used to be like that, preferring the darker roasts. Lighter roasts
had an "off" flavor, a "non-coffee" flavor that I didn't particularly
like. Then one day, I happened to brew up some lighter-roasted beans
and experienced unmistakable citrus. I'd read reports of citrus
flavors in coffee but didn't think I had ever tasted them, until that
day. After being able to apply a label to the "off" flavors I have
enjoyed the citrus flavors, and no tend to roast to C+ even the greens
that Tom recommends for FC+. I think of it like when, at breakfast, I
think I am reaching for the milk and get the orange juice. When you
are expecting milk, the orange juice doesn't taste very good!
Not saying that my experience is right or wrong, or that you too
should be like me. Just thought I would share that experience.
Brian
On 10/16/07, Paul Carder  wrote:
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10) From: Larry Johnson
Good post, Brian. I am one of the ones who prefer the darker end of
the roast spectrum because I like the beans that produce the
chocolatey, nutty, full-bodied flavors. I get a kick out of the
blueberry (when I can hit it just right), but I'm still not into the
flowery, citrusy, "bright" flavors. To me it's more like tea than
coffee.
But, I wouldn't be surprised if I have an experience similar to yours.
It happened with beer. I "grew up" drinking beers like Pabst, Miller,
Bud, Coors (when we could get some smuggled east) and thought that was
what beer was supposed to taste like. When I experienced anything
else, I thought I was tasting off-flavors. Then I got into
homebrewing, learned where all those flavors came from, and started
enjoying them more and more.
These days, I can barely drink a beer from one of the megabrewers
without gagging (think coffee-machine coffee). I don't homebrew as
much as I did, but I write a column on beer styles for a beer-related
periodical, I stand in as a judge for competitions around the area,
and I enjoy almost every beer style in the book, if it's a well-brewed
beer (can't seem to develop a taste for the smoky beers). I can see
the same thing happening with the "bright" coffees someday. I keep
trying them occasionally, and I would imagine that I'll find one
eventually that will hit me the way that one hit you. Not that that
will help me with my stash control problem.
On 10/17/07, Brian Kamnetz  wrote:
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-- 
Larry J

11) From: Scott Bukofsky
It took me a very long time to appreciate lighter roasted coffees, and now I
rarely even go to Full City with a roast.  I would assert that it is very
difficult to roast to City or City+ with good results unless you are fairly
experienced.  Early on when trying to re-create what I was reading from Tom
in his descriptions, I would roast lightly and get horrible, overly acidic
coffee that tasted more like tea.  It was only after lots and lots of
experimentation that I figured out I was essentially under-roasting.  The
giveaway seems to be a biscuity/doughy taste together with the acidity.
When you get it right, the acidity comes with a powerful sweetness which is
very different.  Hard to describe, but obvious when you get it right.
In my Gene Cafe, the trick was to take longer just below first crack to let
some additional caramelization to occur, then experimenting with ending
times after first crack completes.  Since with a City/+ roast the time after
first crack is less than a FC roast, for instance, it is very easy to not
develop flavors and be left with some very poor coffee.  I guess what I am
saying is that it is not always obvious whether you don't like coffee
roasted to city/+, or you don't know what City/+ is.  At least, that was
true in my case.
-Scott
On 10/17/07, Larry Johnson  wrote:
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12) From: Brian Kamnetz
Good point about the roasting expertise, Scott. I'm not Les, miKe,
Eddie, etc., but I'm slowly learning. I now follow a profile that
apparently originated with Jim Schulman. I use a Master 751b heat gun,
so I have lots of oomph available for the faster ramps, and can move
the heat gun back a bit for the slower ramps. I think following the
profile, rather than just blasting through the roast, does make a
significant difference, especially in the lighter roasts.
Larry, I like your beer analogy. Some things we like right away, but
many of our tastes evolve over time, building on experience.
Brian
On 10/17/07, Scott Bukofsky  wrote:
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13) From: Robert Gulley
Brian
I think you have hit the nail on the head. When you were able to 
identify (quantify) what you experienced, it became okay. I think 
that happens to all of us at one time or another. I am new to the 
"citrus" world of coffee, and sometimes I don't like it. But when I 
am able to identify what I am tasting, suddenly it becomes more interesting.
Robert RG
At 11:03 AM 10/17/2007, you wrote:
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"I have measured out my life with coffee spoons."  ~T.S. Eliot  

14) From: DJ Garcia
I also came from the "dark side" when I joined the list. Now if I get
anywhere near second crack I get antsy. I love the lighter roasts with =
their
origin flavors, also even when Tom recommends FC. Roast flavors now make =
me
think "Eeeuuww!" :-)
DJ
Enjoying the lighter side of coffee life ...

15) From: Stephen Carey
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I have to agree with you, DJ.  I love the variety of flavors in the 
lighter roasts.  Now, I still like the darker ones, but the lighter 
ones are exposing me to flavors I didn't know before.
And, what I am learning is that it is not always easy to get others 
to give them a true test.  I have gifted a few roasts of some of the 
very unusual lighter roasts - mostly C+, even a few FC and while my 
friends like them and can describe many of the flavors, "coffee" to 
them is this darker  - actually, very dark - drink.  So, I need to 
work on some of the roasts that do well as darker roasts to see what 
they think.  It is my hope that they find a massive difference in 
what I give to them than what they are used to drinking.
And one friend works in a very exclusive speciality food 
story.  Everything high end, very tasty, incredible flavors, other 
than coffee.  Their beans are all dark roasts, they charge a lot per 
pound, most seem to be blends and when I have had them I didn't enjoy 
them.  Though I am not the be all and end all coffee critic.  I just 
now have had better coffee.  I think this friend wants me to brew 
coffee that tastes like this - over roasted or roasted okay, but 
stale.  Those are just my opinions from a short time doing this, but 
I am learning fast.
I won't be able to give him what he wants.  My hope is that he will 
find out what a dark roast can and should taste like - though I need 
to choose one and dial it in before giving it to him as a 
gift.  There are plenty of beans in my stash that are listed as 
holding up very well at FC+, wish me well.
Stephen
At 07:09 PM 10/17/2007, you wrote:
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I have to agree with you, DJ.  I love the variety of
flavors in the lighter roasts.  Now, I still like the darker ones,
but the lighter ones are exposing me to flavors I didn't know
before.
And, what I am learning is that it is not always easy to get others to
give them a true test.  I have gifted a few roasts of some of the
very unusual lighter roasts - mostly C+, even a few FC and while my
friends like them and can describe many of the flavors,
"coffee" to them is this darker  - actually, very dark -
drink.  So, I need to work on some of the roasts that do well as
darker roasts to see what they think.  It is my hope that they find
a massive difference in what I give to them than what they are used to
drinking.  
And one friend works in a very exclusive speciality food story. 
Everything high end, very tasty, incredible flavors, other than
coffee.  Their beans are all dark roasts, they charge a lot per
pound, most seem to be blends and when I have had them I didn't enjoy
them.  Though I am not the be all and end all coffee critic.  I
just now have had better coffee.  I think this friend wants me to
brew coffee that tastes like this - over roasted or roasted okay, but
stale.  Those are just my opinions from a short time doing this, but
I am learning fast.
I won't be able to give him what he wants.  My hope is that he will
find out what a dark roast can and should taste like - though I need to
choose one and dial it in before giving it to him as a gift.  There
are plenty of beans in my stash that are listed as holding up very well
at FC+, wish me well.
Stephen
At 07:09 PM 10/17/2007, you wrote:
I also came from the "dark
side" when I joined the list. Now if I get
anywhere near second crack I get antsy. I love the lighter roasts with
their
origin flavors, also even when Tom recommends FC. Roast flavors now make
me
think "Eeeuuww!" :-)
DJ
Enjoying the lighter side of coffee life ...
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