HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Learning to roast by temperature (25 msgs / 1010 lines)
1) From: Brett Mason
Just received the digital thermometer that Tom sells, and this thing is
amazing!
I just put the probe down into the beans in my popper, turned it on with a
load of beans, and then began watching as the roast went by.  This was a
fascinating lesson in degree of roast, and gave a much cleqarer
understanding of Tom's pagehttp://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.html... I have always
roasted by sight, sound and smell, but had no idea of the consistency that
can be gained with a digital thermometer!
If you get a chance, I encourage you to go there too!
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

2) From: Eddie Dove
Just yesterday I received two of those digital thermometers from Sweet
Maria's and they are going to be installed in my RK Drum setup.
Eddie
-- 
Vita non est vivere sed valere vita est
Roasting Blog and Profiles for the Gene Cafehttp://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/On 10/27/07, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>

3) From: Kris McN
I've been thinking about getting one for my HG/BrM setup.  It's funny, when
I started roasting (with an IR2) I was very temp oriented and kept very
detailed time/temp notes.  Then when I switched to the HG/BrM, I went
totally seat-of-pants, sights-sounds-and-smells, with just noting time.  But
now I'm feeling like I'd like to get all detailed again.  I guess I'm ready
to climb the next peak in the learning curve.
Kris McN

4) From: miKe mcKoffee
Careful Brett, or next thing you know you'll be going for consistent brew
temps:-)
Kona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
www.mcKonaKoffee.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Brett Mason
	Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 10:56 AM
	
	Just received the digital thermometer that Tom sells, and this thing
is amazing!  
	
	I just put the probe down into the beans in my popper, turned it on
with a load of beans, and then began watching as the roast went by.  This
was a fascinating lesson in degree of roast, and gave a much cleqarer
understanding of Tom's pagehttp://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.html... I have always
roasted by sight, sound and smell, but had no idea of the consistency that
can be gained with a digital thermometer! 
	
	If you get a chance, I encourage you to go there too!
	Cheers,
	Brett
	
http://homeroast.freeservers.com

5) From: Brett Mason
yeah I know - it's the risk I run...
OK, so someone fill me in - when I have the probe in the bean mass (roughly
middle of bean mass) the temp reads 446; if I turn off popper, the temp
drops to 424 immediately - so should I roast with a 20 degree skew,
adjusting for the hot air, or is the temp of the beans equal to what I read
as the popper is running?
I don't know if I even explained that clearly...
Brett
On 10/27/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

6) From: Barry Luterman
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Yes. It seems the hot air is plus or minus 446 while the exterior of =
your beans is plus or minus 424. So what you have to do is the =
following:  Wait for first crack. It sounds like popcorn then dump the =
beans just before 2 nd crack which sounds like Rice Krispies (not Minute =
Rice in this instance) and offer the thermometers as a tradition before =
they drive you crazy.

7) From: Eddie Dove
Roast as you would normally and record the temperatures during the
roast; extrapolate from there for starters.
Eddie
On 10/27/07, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>

8) From: Brett Mason
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!  Just got the thermometer in!
Barry you crack me up!  OK, so that's what first and second crack, and
minute clean, sound like...  I DO want to understand the technical aspect of
temperature ... I appreciate the notes on temp vs. temp, but wonder which
more closely correlates to Tom's degree of roast pictorial....
B
On 10/27/07, Barry Luterman  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

9) From: gin
Brett:
son, you have been roasting how long?  not digi yet???
Ma is shocked.
g
---- Brett Mason  wrote: 
<Snip>

10) From: Barry Luterman
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Obviously I am kidding. But there is a piece of me (probably the artist) =
that rebels when an art is turned into a Science. For me, the taste of  =
a great coffee should not be expressed in chemical or temperature =
symbols.

11) From: Ross
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Barry,
The history of civilization is that he who uses or adapts to using the =
best tools becomes the artist or at least becomes the one who gets to =
decide who the artist is. 
Ross

12) From: Brett Mason
I dunno, Barry has paid his dues, and may well be the person who gets to
decide....  I am just to new to the thermometer to give it up at this
point...
B
On 10/27/07, Ross  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

13) From: Barry Luterman
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Oh I get it now. I have a flashlight so I can go into a cave and see the =
cave drawings . Now I am the artist or I can say primitive man was the =
artist. What changed because I have a flashlight? Is his art better or =
worse? Art just is. Coffee just is. When we try to standardize it and =
make it reliable ( read repeatable) by keeping temperature and chemistry =
exact we wind up with Folgers or *$.

14) From: George
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
They sure are.  I use one with an 8 inch solid probe with my Zach's and =
my Bravi.  I especially like it in the Zach when doing decafs.  Now to =
find some type of slip collar to use it in a GeneCafe without the wire =
getting all twisted up.  :-)
GeorgeM

15) From: gin
Mike McCanless has a probe in his hot top, I will ask him to post it on homerosaters.
g
---- George  wrote: 
<Snip>

16) From: Dean
Do a search on mercotac--they make some small slip rings that should 
work.  I used them on a TC app many years ago, and they worked ok.
Last time I checked they were pretty proud of them.
HTH
Dean
George wrote:
<Snip>

17) From: raymanowen
You nailed it, Brett-  "...drops to 424 immediately" means the t/c
junction is low thermal mass and you are always reading the
temperature of the junction itself, not exactly whatever else you
think it is seeing.
When you stopped the airflow, you started reading mainly the bean
surface temperature. The temperature had been rising, since they were
in a hotter environment. Duh
Most of the coffee  is beneath the surface, so it's even cooler-
lagging behind as you heat the bean. Helluva note, isn't it?
Using "precision" thermcouples won't give accuracy any where near as
great as a good installation. Don't waste your Wampum. More decimal
places give more precise errors.
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
On 10/27/07, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the
Mighty Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

18) From: raymanowen
And what meter do you use to read the flavor and aroma of the coffee
as you sip it? -ro
On 10/28/07, raymanowen  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the
Mighty Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

19) From: Stephen Carey
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Since I roast with an IR2 it was important for me to see what the 
real temperature was, knowing that on many of the IR2's the 
temperature given can be off by quite a bit (display versus 
reality).  I had heard that information so often that I got the 
digital probe within a few roasts.  The main thing it has done for me 
is to track my profiles more accurately and should I share them with 
someone I can let them know that the temperature is with or without a 
thermometer, plus whether I am using a ceiling fan and dryer duct 
hose to pull out the hot air.
When using the ceiling fan and the dryer duct hose I get readings on 
the digital thermometer that equal what the machines display 
reads.  When I don't use the hose and fan I run about 20 degrees 
hotter than what the machine says.  In the end it is one more piece 
of information that helps me roast.  I still use sight and sound, 
plus, of course, taste to work on my profiles and to dial in on a 
roast that I like best for a particular bean.
Also, it is good for experimenting, such as, what is the difference 
in the roast if I leave the profile the same, but increase the volume 
of beans?  Or decrease it?  I find it helps in profiling on many 
levels.  Yet, I typically fall back to eyes and ear, plus smell (to a 
lesser degree).
Stephen
At 01:55 PM 10/27/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
--=====================_708043062==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Since I roast with an IR2 it was important for me to see
what the real temperature was, knowing that on many of the IR2's the
temperature given can be off by quite a bit (display versus
reality).  I had heard that information so often that I got the
digital probe within a few roasts.  The main thing it has done for
me is to track my profiles more accurately and should I share them with
someone I can let them know that the temperature is with or without a
thermometer, plus whether I am using a ceiling fan and dryer duct hose to
pull out the hot air.  
When using the ceiling fan and the dryer duct hose I get readings on the
digital thermometer that equal what the machines display reads. 
When I don't use the hose and fan I run about 20 degrees hotter than what
the machine says.  In the end it is one more piece of information
that helps me roast.  I still use sight and sound, plus, of course,
taste to work on my profiles and to dial in on a roast that I like best
for a particular bean.
Also, it is good for experimenting, such as, what is the difference in
the roast if I leave the profile the same, but increase the volume of
beans?  Or decrease it?  I find it helps in profiling on many
levels.  Yet, I typically fall back to eyes and ear, plus smell (to
a lesser degree).
Stephen
At 01:55 PM 10/27/2007, you wrote:
Just received the digital
thermometer that Tom sells, and this thing is amazing!  
I just put the probe down into the beans in my popper, turned it on with
a load of beans, and then began watching as the roast went by.  This
was a fascinating lesson in degree of roast, and gave a much cleqarer
understanding of Tom's page
http://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.html... I have
always roasted by sight, sound and smell, but had no idea of the
consistency that can be gained with a digital thermometer! 
If you get a chance, I encourage you to go there too!
Cheers,
Brett
http://homeroast.freeservers.com
--=====================_708043062==.ALT--

20) From: Floyd Lozano
Art is what you get when the science isn't expressible as an equation, but
rather is inherent to the performer.  What I MEAN is, there is a best way to
represent something, or at least a best possible.  Artists tend to hit this,
not by means of following a recipe, but either by natural talent (i.e.
hardwired equations in their heads) or by 'empirical experimentation'
(practice!).  Science is simply taking what we can accomplish and stating it
in a language (equation, recipe) so that we can reproduce it again, if the
recipe is complete enough.
A better analogy would be to liken the use of brush and oil and canvas to
rocks and cave walls.  You can produce art with both, but you have more
people looking at oil and canvas and proclaiming it art than you have people
saying the same of cave drawings.
We're always going to have the art v science argument, at least until
someone gets a complete recipe that takes everything into consideration
(ambient temp, humidity, distance from the sun, lunar period, density of
individual beans, etc etc).  If someone cares enough about it, you can bet
that one day there will be a machine that does it.  Then again, you could
argue that there is yet to be a machine that can create a Matisse or a
Mozart.  Then *again* you can argue that one day there was a time where if
you wanted to hear good music, you had to hire Mozart and have him perform
FOR you.  Now, you just fire up the ol' iPod =)
-F
ps i should note that I pretty much eschew the technology in favor of the
art myself.  I can't be bothered to log temps in and out of grill and
maintain a profile diary except the one that's in between my ears (and
believe me there's plenty of extra room in there, it's practically
vacant!).  My two consessions to 'science' are the 550 degree cooper
thermometer SM sells, and a digital timer =)
On 10/27/07, Barry Luterman  wrote:
<Snip>

21) From: zane
to get in on the art v science debate....
 "The Greek word for a painter of a sculptor was *banausos,* meaning
literally a mechanic. "
     ---some website i googled
science is something that helps us make better art.  And making something
reproducable does not take away the art of it, it just makes it easier to do
again, because it took some artistic sense to get there in the first place.
the main difference between cave painting and oil painting is the technology
involved to make the canvases and oil paints.
In this sense i really don't understand all the folks who say coffee
roasting is strictly an art or a science.
Its really just what tools you prefer ( and can afford) to work with.
And then, everything becomes art, though our art is definetly better than
*$s' paint-by-numbers junk.
speaking of which, its about time i hook up my thermometer as well.  I got
it a while ago and have been waiting for no good reason.  Roasting in a
poppery outdoors makes my roasts very susceptible to the weather: FC in the
summer is C+ in the winter.  Something i hope a thermometer could fix.  Any
advice on placement?
happy roasting,
-zane

22) From: Barry Luterman
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Zane you are leaving yourself wide open asking this list where to place =
a thermometer.

23) From: Brett Mason
I put the thermometer down into the bean mass.  One thing I am working right
now is the difference between the bean-mass temp and the bean mass while the
heat is blowing through.  I need to run some test loads to find out where
the bean temp is, otherwise I am just measuring hot air...
Hope it helps,
Brett
On 10/30/07, zane  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

24) From: Gary Townsend
Spew Alert !!!!!!!!
On 10/30/07, Barry Luterman wrote:
<Snip>

25) From: PJ S
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Zane
don't know what type of roaster set up you have but I use bm/hg   
 my bread machine pan is squareish so I place the probe in one corner =
and keep my hg in the opposite corner 
to protect my tc I took a twelve inch deepfryer thermometer cut the stem =
off just below the dial with a dremel and cutoff disc (being careful not =
to cut little metal strip inside) then with the cutoff disc down about =
9-10 inches you will see a small indent this is a crimp to lock the =
bottom part of the metal strip in place grind that off just enough to =
open the full inside diameter of the tube then hopefully all the =
mechanism will come out in one piece then I cut 2-3 small airholes down =
near the bottom (being careful not to weaken the tube too much) so as to =
be in the bean mass 
then I took the clip that came with the thermometer pop riveted it in =
the corner of my bread pan near the top and another bracket with a hole =
for the metal tube insert the tube then slip the tc in the tube 
temps seem to be really close to actual bean mass temps
hth


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