HomeRoast Digest


Topic: behmor discussion (22 msgs / 667 lines)
1) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
I have to rant a bit here:
Firstly, it's a bit premature to criticize a roaster than most have 
not yet used. that said, i am getting increasingly irked by all those 
who take critical discussion of the machine as some affront to Joe 
and his roaster project. I am absolutely sure this roaster will 
succeed and Joe will do fine. We (SM) are sinking a lot into this 
machine too, and while a lot of people who are invested (financially 
and otherwise) in something become polyanna-ish (sp?) about things, 
don't want to discuss problems with it, I feel just the opposite. 
This machine has a strong feature set and it has warts too. I  feel 
responsible to point out the blemishes, and (obviated by the checks 
we will be writing to Joe) that does not mean these are fatal flaws 
that render the machine worthless. They are little ticks, and all 
roasters have them (as well as most people, and I put myself at the 
head of the list). I am like a lot of you, and don't like rah-rah 
consumerism, and I am trying to compose our Behmor notes in a way 
that helps people make an informed decision about whether they really 
need yet another roaster. For many of you, the answer is no, and for 
those that do, I am hoping we can have a robust, critical, honest 
discussion about the machine on this list. So many of you have 
personal contact with Joe that it almost seems like critical remarks 
are reprimanded as personal insult to him. I don't think HE feels 
this way. He talks freely about the fact that the machine cannot be 
everything for everybody. Although he often remarks about how much 
time and money he has invested in this, I think he's just nervous and 
excited. i would be too, but as I said, I think the roaster has 
undeniably strong positives. So let's just wait till some of you get 
these in your hands, so we can really find out if your expectations 
have been met, what you like, and what you find difficult about the 
machine. The discussion of the drum, while raising some valid points, 
got way off track. I guess it is the reason for my rant here. By 
about the 5th email, someone had accurately explained the reason for 
the coarser mesh drum. It's a small limitation of the machine, and 
something to know about in advance. The fact is, the fine mesh drum 
isn't ready to distribute yet, and as John pointed out, it has it's 
own drawback: it retains a lot of chaff. Anyway, there are other 
issues with the machine that people should know about and I have 
devoted my last hours before my flight to tuning our behmor comments 
and posting them, later today.
Whew - thanks for letting me rant. I needed that.
Tom
--
                   "Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"
            Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting  -  Tom & Maria
                      http://www.sweetmarias.com                Thompson Owen george_at_sweetmarias.com
     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - tom_at_sweetmarias.com

2) From: Les
I am sorry you had to rant Tom.  I would have much rather heard about your
expectations as you go to Yemen.  Do you have some leads on speciality
farms?  Are you going to try to partner with some mills to bring us some
even better Yemen coffees?  Keep yourself safe as Yemen isn't the best place
for an American to be these days.
Les
On 11/9/07, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee 
wrote:
<Snip>

3) From: Robert Gulley
Thanks for the rant, Tom - I for one wish you would rant more often - 
we are the students, you are the teacher (of course you have a 
business to run and a passion to pursue!)
Robert RG
At 01:29 PM 11/9/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
"I have measured out my life with coffee spoons."  ~T.S. Eliot  

4) From: Michael Rasmussen
Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee wrote:
<Snip>
Wow! It sounds like you could use some time away.  How about a trip someplace?
:)
-- 
   Michael Rasmussen, Portland, Ore, USA
  Be Appropriate && Follow Your Curiosity
       http://www.patch.com/words/

5) From: Rick Copple
Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee wrote:
<Snip>
And that is one of the main reasons I order from you. I know what you 
describe, positives and negatives, are honestly portrayed as you see it 
and I'm not going to get any big surprises when it arrives. I can read 
your review and make an informed decision of whether it is right for me.
So far, I believe it is right for me. Eventually, one will come my way.
Enjoyed the rant, it was on the money. And do have a safe and successful 
trip to Yemen. Sounds like an adventure. ;)
-- 
Rick Copple

6) From: Steve
On Nov 9, 1:29 pm, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
 wrote:
<Snip>
Tom,
First off, I echo others' sentiments regarding your post.  I think you
are right on track and its why I buy almost exclusively from you.
I feel I need to respond to this portion of your post, because I may
have been the person that started off the drum discussion, for better
or worse.  I had queried something like, "if this drum design is a
design flaw, then shouldn't the replacement for it be free of
charge?"  Now, I probably could have said this better.  My training in
formal logic has made me insensitive to the rhetorical effect of some
of my statements.  It is indeed true that _IF_ the drum was a known
design flaw, the question of free replacement would be on the table.
Jim Behmor actually e-mailed me personally to clarify the matter,
explaining the drum situation in detail, which I repeated here, to try
to address the open question that I had posed to the list.  For me,
the issue was settled.  As an engineer myself, I certainly understand
having to make design compromises.
Anyways, my point is that I wanted to make sure that for my part in
the flaring up of this topic on the board, I apologize, because I
think I could have stated my question in a less inflammatory way.  I
to enjoy participating in critical discourse about products,
especially in a forum where its possible the discourse could
realistically result in actual design improvements in later
generations.  Exciting!
Lastly, I wanted to mention that I got the Behmor.  I'm hoping to use
it to roast up some coffee for folks during the holidays.  The machine
looks impressive, and I really hope it lives up to my expectations as
a damn solid piece of roasting equipment for the price.  How exciting
this must be for Joe; he's about to really find out if the device he
designed _really_works_.  I'm almost envious.  I'd love to have the
time, energy, resourcefulness, etc. to pull something like this off,
and know I created something new that many people use and appreciate
daily.  What a rush!
--
Steve

7) From: Joseph Robertson
Tom,
Do you take any vacations? If you do would you share them with us. For
us that have businesses it can be very difficult to take care of
ourselves. We get so involved  making sure every one of our customers
is well taken care of. I only bring this up because I know how devoted
you are to all of us. I am of the same mold. I need a real vacation as
well but have a difficult time turning off the world I have created to
take a much needed break.
Back to your topic, thank you for the rant. By these comments from the
one in charge I know you work from your heart and soul to bring us the
great services you do.
I commend you and thank you at the same time.
Have a great trip and take some time to yourself.
JoeR
On Nov 9, 2007 10:29 AM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
 wrote:
<Snip>

8) From: Leo Zick
Im not here to clap hands for tom like all the other posters have, but
i agree that valuable criticism would be much appreciated over slander
without proof.
With that, i havent seen anyone provide valuable comentary on it yet.
Im really itching to see if anyone can get thing bad boy tricked into
making a fc to fc+ roast...
On 11/14/07, Joseph Robertson  wrote:
<Snip>

9) From: Brett Mason
Hey Leo,
I AM here TO CLAP HANDS FOR TOM ...  and I think such are well deserved...
I have worries - what if you have one botched roast?  Does this make all the
other "successful" comments slander?  There has been enough evidence on list
of being able to take the roasts dark.  And there are plenty of supporting
comments that remind the reader that the machine does not immediately
"freeze" the roast as it is - so you have to work it out so that the cooling
will halt the roast where you are really trying to hit it...
I don't think you'll get a "Proof", but I do think you'll find the machine
is a machine, and can be managed...
OK, two cents from me...
Brett
On Nov 15, 2007 6:27 PM, Leo Zick < leo.zick> wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

10) From: Leo Zick
Sorry, allow me to fall in line- YEAY TOM!
I guess ifi i say it liike i see it, and dont provide tracking
numbers, thename of my mailman, or my undulating joy of having an
espresso over a 10 min period, im not an obient lister
On 11/15/07, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>

11) From: Brett Mason
I just murdered a drum roast of El Salvador P.N. Las Ranas Decaf - 2lb...
This was in my drum roaster, over full heat - took about 8 minutes to get to
first, and about 2 to get to second.  I was planning on stopping before 2nd,
just like Tom recommended...  bot NO - I blew it...  Went to FC+++ in
2.5bminutes.
The real problem was I was counting on my normal method - forget that I had
half the normal load in the drum...  That makes me a DRUMMY...
Pulled it and it sounded like the Drum and Bugle Corps without the
bugles...  Poured it onto my flat tray on the patio concrete - it's 30
degrees outside and at least I stopped it quick...
I guess this is to say that dark roasts can run away, and every roaster is
susceptible....
Brett
On Nov 15, 2007 8:36 PM, Leo Zick  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

12) From: Alchemist John
Leo,
I have done FC and FC+.  Fully rolling 2nd.  The main "trick" is do 
NOT turn your back on it and have you hand on the cool button.  Turn 
your back and you might hit 3rd crack :(
At 16:27 11/15/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
John Nanci
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

13) From: gin
Leo:
I have started a thread on homeroasters.org forum that is dedicated to the use, quirks and profiles on the Behmor 1600.
I am sure Tom woulkd not mind ny saying this since he would surely like a bit of other talk as well on the list.
If you want keep and eye out over there, it is a public thread but to add comments you must be a member.
regards,
ginny
---- Leo Zick  wrote: 
<Snip>

14) From: Leo Zick
Thanks John, and Ginny,
John - is the trick just a matter of changing cycles as it nears the end,
and using the start of the cooling cycle?
I know not all roasts need to be dark, but have you ever tried a less than
FC+ classic italian blend?  blech!
I appreciate all the warnings, but we are maintaining controlled explosions,
so warnings obviously arent something most here are concerned with.  If its
easier to rename this thread the anti-warranty thread, thats cool, but I
really want this machine to make my espresso blends with. :)
On Nov 15, 2007 10:00 PM, Alchemist John  wrote:
<Snip>

15) From: Alchemist John
I think there is a fundamental "problem" here.  Definitions.  Dark, 
espresso, FC+.  Those all do not mean the same thing.
Here is my take.
It WILL do a roast that is appropriate for espresso (and yes, I know 
espresso is NOT a roast)
It WILL do FC+
It is not advised (notice, did not say WILL NOT) to do charbucks 
roast, i.e. DARK.
How's that?
As for the trick - it is paying attention.  That is what I mean.  As 
for exact advise, try this.  Roast on your given profile (I like 
p2).  At the start of 2nd, give it 5 seconds, and hit cool.  Ignore 
the color or your expectations.  Taste it and go from there.  The 
Behmor tends to have extended profiles, so it lends itself to 
mellower fuller roastings than you might be used to, i.e. you may 
find that 10 minutes to 2nd, 30 seconds into 2nd on "another roaster" 
may well taste very similar to a Behmor at 17 minutes, 5 seconds into 2nd.
At 05:54 11/16/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
John Nanci
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

16) From: miKe mcKoffee
The "trick" to a successful dark roast is as John indicated, paying
attention and manually hitting cool before the roast runs away thermally.
You cannot change the chosen profile to a different profile during a roast.
Also I'll reiterate it's a matter of learning your roasting tool, in this
case the Behmor. With the Behmor, particularly with max load batches, you
need to anticipate desired end of roast stopping prior to final degree of
roast. For instance if going for a full rolling second FC+ to Vienna roast
hit cool maybe around 30 seconds into 2nd. It is not a mult-thousand dollar
1# roaster with actual bean mass monitoring and automated control based on
bean mass temp or any other temp.
Kona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
www.mcKonaKoffee.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Leo Zick
	Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 5:54 AM
	
	Thanks John, and Ginny,
	John - is the trick just a matter of changing cycles as it nears the
end, and using the start of the cooling cycle?
	I know not all roasts need to be dark, but have you ever tried a
less than FC+ classic italian blend?  blech! 
	
	I appreciate all the warnings, but we are maintaining controlled
explosions, so warnings obviously arent something most here are concerned
with.  If its easier to rename this thread the anti-warranty thread, thats
cool, but I really want this machine to make my espresso blends with. :) 
	
	On Nov 15, 2007 10:00 PM, Alchemist John 
wrote:
	
		Leo,
		
		I have done FC and FC+.  Fully rolling 2nd.  The main
"trick" is do NOT turn your back on it and have you hand on the cool button.
Turn your back and you might hit 3rd crack :( 
		At 16:27 11/15/2007, you wrote:
		
			Im not here to clap hands for tom like all the other
posters have, but
			i agree that valuable criticism would be much
appreciated over slander
			without proof.
			With that, i havent seen anyone provide valuable
comentary on it yet.
			Im really itching to see if anyone can get thing bad
boy tricked into
			making a fc to fc+ roast...
			
			On 11/14/07, Joseph Robertson 
wrote:
			> Tom,
			> Do you take any vacations? If you do would you
share them with us. For
			> us that have businesses it can be very difficult
to take care of
			> ourselves. We get so involved  making sure every
one of our customers
			> is well taken care of. I only bring this up
because I know how devoted
			> you are to all of us. I am of the same mold. I
need a real vacation as
			> well but have a difficult time turning off the
world I have created to
			> take a much needed break.
			> Back to your topic, thank you for the rant. By
these comments from the
			> one in charge I know you work from your heart and
soul to bring us the
			> great services you do.
			> I commend you and thank you at the same time.
			> Have a great trip and take some time to yourself.
			> JoeR
			>
			> On Nov 9, 2007 10:29 AM, Tom & Maria - Sweet
Maria's Coffee
			>  wrote:
			> > I have to rant a bit here:
			> >
			> > Firstly, it's a bit premature to criticize a
roaster than most have
			> > not yet used. that said, i am getting
increasingly irked by all those
			> > who take critical discussion of the machine as
some affront to Joe
			> > and his roaster project. I am absolutely sure
this roaster will
			> > succeed and Joe will do fine. We (SM) are
sinking a lot into this
			> > machine too, and while a lot of people who are
invested (financially
			> > and otherwise) in something become polyanna-ish
(sp?) about things,
			> > don't want to discuss problems with it, I feel
just the opposite.
			> > This machine has a strong feature set and it has
warts too. I  feel
			> > responsible to point out the blemishes, and
(obviated by the checks
			> > we will be writing to Joe) that does not mean
these are fatal flaws
			> > that render the machine worthless. They are
little ticks, and all
			> > roasters have them (as well as most people, and
I put myself at the
			> > head of the list). I am like a lot of you, and
don't like rah-rah
			> > consumerism, and I am trying to compose our
Behmor notes in a way
			> > that helps people make an informed decision
about whether they really
			> > need yet another roaster. For many of you, the
answer is no, and for
			> > those that do, I am hoping we can have a robust,
critical, honest
			> > discussion about the machine on this list. So
many of you have
			> > personal contact with Joe that it almost seems
like critical remarks
			> > are reprimanded as personal insult to him. I
don't think HE feels
			> > this way. He talks freely about the fact that
the machine cannot be
			> > everything for everybody. Although he often
remarks about how much
			> > time and money he has invested in this, I think
he's just nervous and
			> > excited. i would be too, but as I said, I think
the roaster has
			> > undeniably strong positives. So let's just wait
till some of you get
			> > these in your hands, so we can really find out
if your expectations
			> > have been met, what you like, and what you find
difficult about the
			> > machine. The discussion of the drum, while
raising some valid points,
			> > got way off track. I guess it is the reason for
my rant here. By
			> > about the 5th email, someone had accurately
explained the reason for
			> > the coarser mesh drum. It's a small limitation
of the machine, and
			> > something to know about in advance. The fact is,
the fine mesh drum
			> > isn't ready to distribute yet, and as John
pointed out, it has it's
			> > own drawback: it retains a lot of chaff. Anyway,
there are other
			> > issues with the machine that people should know
about and I have
			> > devoted my last hours before my flight to tuning
our behmor comments
			> > and posting them, later today.
			> >
			> > Whew - thanks for letting me rant. I needed
that.
			> >
			> > Tom
			> > --
			> >
			>
			> >                    "Great coffee comes from tiny
roasters"
			> >             Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting
-  Tom & Maria
			> >http://www.sweetmarias.com 
			> >                 Thompson Owen
george_at_sweetmarias.com
			> >
			>
			> >      Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street,
Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
			> >              phone/fax: 888 876 5917 -
tom_at_sweetmarias.com
			> >
			> > homeroast mailing list
			> >http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast			> > To change your personal list settings (digest
options, vacations,
			> unsvbscribes) go to
			>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings			> >
			>
			> homeroast mailing list
			>http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast			> To change your personal list settings (digest
options, vacations,
			> unsvbscribes) go to
			>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings			>

17) From: Rich Adams
The manufacturer recommends "never roast past 10 seconds into 2nd crack".
Highlighted in red.http://www.behmor.com/pdf/Part_II.pdf

18) From: Steve
The stuff in red is a lie, ala Penn & Teller Cruel Tricks for Dear
Friends
On Nov 16, 10:53 am, "Rich Adams"  wrote:
<Snip>

19) From: gin
I really wish you guys would post the profiles/buttons/way you do these roasts.
going to FC/FC + is great but how did you get there?
thanks,
ginny
---- Alchemist John  wrote: 
<Snip>

20) From: Jim Anderson
On Nov 16, 2007 12:27 PM, gin  wrote:
<Snip>
like that earlier today and a rolling 2nd was no problem.
Jim

21) From: James Raven
hey Jim, where are you from, what part of the country? If even in the USA?
From: ural.jim
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +behmor discussion
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:36:58 -0800
On Nov 16, 2007 12:27 PM, gin  wrote:
I really wish you guys would post the profiles/buttons/way you do these roa=
sts.
going to FC/FC + is great but how did you get there?
thanks,
ginny
Put in a half pound, push the one pound button and stand back.  Did one lik=
e that earlier today and a rolling 2nd was no problem.
Jim
Your smile counts. The more smiles you share, the more we donate.  Join i=
n.
www.windowslive.com/smile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_oprsmilewlhmtagline=

22) From: Jim Anderson
James,
I am in Southern Cal.
Jim
On Nov 17, 2007 11:43 AM, James Raven  wrote:
<Snip>


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