HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Roasting Philosophy (49 msgs / 1370 lines)
1) From: DeCambre.Peter
I will be out of the office starting  11/26/2002 and will not return
until 12/02/2002.
I will respond to your message when I return.
homeroast mailing listhttp://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast

2) From: Jared
I know each bean has a little different perfect profile but I would
like to share my guess as to what is generally the best profile for
roasting coffee.  I also hope to hear lots of responses about why it
is or is not true.  I would always rather know the truth than be
right.  So hear is my general roasting approach.
A steady climb in bean temp to first crack at about 10 to 13 minutes
with a confident and definitive hit at first crack.  Then get the
beans to rise to the second crack as slow as possible while keeping
the been temp slowly rising as apposed to stalling out.  First crack
time to second crack would ideally take about 4 minutes.   Cool
promptly at the point of the roast you want whether before or after
the point described above.  Jared

3) From: Brett Mason
sounds to me like slow baked beans...
Brett
On Nov 23, 2007 11:07 PM, Jared  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

4) From: Jared
Thats what I am talking about.  Give me more about why you would say
that.  I think my general profile is a great starting point.
On Nov 23, 2007 11:35 PM, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>

5) From: Brett Mason
OK Jared,
I was going to let the comment ride about 15 minutes to see how others will
chime in.  But you've kindly asked, so I'll point you to -my- approach.
(That and $4 will get you a free coffee at Starbucks...)
If you go too slow, you'll bake the beans and get a lousy roast where the
flavors vary from off to icky...  -For me- roast should not be shorter than
6 minutes start to finish, nor longer than 13 minutes start to finish.  I'd
like 4 minutes after 1st crack until you kill it, and preferably just before
2nd crack, like Kvindlog does with his watch...
but that's just In My Not So Humble Opinion...
  Brett
On Nov 23, 2007 11:40 PM, Jared  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

6) From: Dave Kvindlog
Thought I'd better explain what Brett means by that "watch" comment.
I try to stop most of my roasts at City+ to Full City.  When I go for City+
I first take the bean to Full City.  I time and document when 1st crack
starts, ends, and when the first outlying cracks of 2nd can be heard.  I
then stop my City+ roast halfway between the timed end of 1st crack and the
timed start of 2nd for that bean.  Has worked pretty well for me.
Dave Kvindlog
iHomeroast
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
On 11/23/07, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>

7) From: miKe mcKoffee
I'd tend to agree with you Jared, your general profile is indeed a good
starting point, especially if that's how it tastes good to you. Anything
longer than 13 minute roast "baked"? Generally speaking I think not. Had a
quite righteous after dinner Americano of Guatemala Gesha 14:30 total roast
time to City++ 440f finish bean temp.
Kona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
www.mcKonaKoffee.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Brett Mason
	Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 9:48 PM
	To: homeroast
	Subject: Re: +Roasting Philosophy
	
	OK Jared,
	
	I was going to let the comment ride about 15 minutes to see how
others will chime in.  But you've kindly asked, so I'll point you to -my-
approach.  (That and $4 will get you a free coffee at Starbucks...) 
	
	If you go too slow, you'll bake the beans and get a lousy roast
where the flavors vary from off to icky...  -For me- roast should not be
shorter than 6 minutes start to finish, nor longer than 13 minutes start to
finish.  I'd like 4 minutes after 1st crack until you kill it, and
preferably just before 2nd crack, like Kvindlog does with his watch... 
	
	but that's just In My Not So Humble Opinion...
	  Brett
	
	On Nov 23, 2007 11:40 PM, Jared  wrote: 
	
		Thats what I am talking about.  Give me more about why you
would say
		that.  I think my general profile is a great starting point.
		On Nov 23, 2007 11:35 PM, Brett Mason 
wrote:
		> sounds to me like slow baked beans...
		> Brett
		>
		>
		>
		> On Nov 23, 2007 11:07 PM, Jared 
wrote:
		> > I know each bean has a little different perfect profile
but I would 
		> > like to share my guess as to what is generally the best
profile for
		> > roasting coffee.  I also hope to hear lots of responses
about why it
		> > is or is not true.  I would always rather know the truth
than be 
		> > right.  So hear is my general roasting approach.
		> > A steady climb in bean temp to first crack at about 10
to 13 minutes
		> > with a confident and definitive hit at first crack.
Then get the 
		> > beans to rise to the second crack as slow as possible
while keeping
		> > the been temp slowly rising as apposed to stalling out.
First crack
		> > time to second crack would ideally take about 4 minutes.
Cool 
		> > promptly at the point of the roast you want whether
before or after
		> > the point described above.  Jared
		> >
		> > homeroast mailing list 
		> >http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast		> > To change your personal list settings (digest options,
vacations, 
		> unsvbscribes) go to
		>http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings		> >
		>
		>
		>
		> --
		> Cheers,
		> Brett
		>
		>http://homeroast.freeservers.com

8) From: Dave Kvindlog
MiKe,
Doesn't it depend somewhat on weight/volume of beans roasted in the batch?
Dave Kvindlog
iHomeroast
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
On 11/24/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>

9) From: Brett Mason
Interesting point....
Jared, what are you roasting in?
Brett
On Nov 24, 2007 12:14 AM, Dave Kvindlog  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

10) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Sure, and a multitude of other variables.  
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Dave Kvindlog
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 10:14 PM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +Roasting Philosophy
MiKe,
 
Doesn't it depend somewhat on weight/volume of beans roasted in the batch?
 
Dave Kvindlog
iHomeroast
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
On 11/24/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote: 
I'd tend to agree with you Jared, your general profile is indeed a good
starting point, especially if that's how it tastes good to you. Anything 
longer than 13 minute roast "baked"? Generally speaking I think not. Had a
quite righteous after dinner Americano of Guatemala Gesha 14:30 total roast
time to City++ 440f finish bean temp.
Kona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee 
www.mcKonaKoffee.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must 
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/       From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:  
homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Brett Mason
       Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 9:48 PM
       To: homeroast
       Subject: Re: +Roasting Philosophy 
       OK Jared,
       I was going to let the comment ride about 15 minutes to see how
others will chime in.  But you've kindly asked, so I'll point you to -my-
approach.  (That and $4 will get you a free coffee at Starbucks...) 
       If you go too slow, you'll bake the beans and get a lousy roast
where the flavors vary from off to icky...  -For me- roast should not be
shorter than 6 minutes start to finish, nor longer than 13 minutes start to 
finish.  I'd like 4 minutes after 1st crack until you kill it, and
preferably just before 2nd crack, like Kvindlog does with his watch...
       but that's just In My Not So Humble Opinion...
         Brett 
       On Nov 23, 2007 11:40 PM, Jared  wrote:
               Thats what I am talking about.  Give me more about why you 
would say
               that.  I think my general profile is a great starting point.
               On Nov 23, 2007 11:35 PM, Brett Mason  >
wrote:
               > sounds to me like slow baked beans...
               > Brett
               >
               >
               >
               > On Nov 23, 2007 11:07 PM, Jared < jaredandersson>
wrote:
               > > I know each bean has a little different perfect profile
but I would
               > > like to share my guess as to what is generally the best 
profile for
               > > roasting coffee.  I also hope to hear lots of responses
about why it
               > > is or is not true.  I would always rather know the truth
than be
               > > right.  So hear is my general roasting approach. 
               > > A steady climb in bean temp to first crack at about 10
to 13 minutes
               > > with a confident and definitive hit at first crack.
Then get the
               > > beans to rise to the second crack as slow as possible 
while keeping
               > > the been temp slowly rising as apposed to stalling out.
First crack
               > > time to second crack would ideally take about 4 minutes.
Cool
               > > promptly at the point of the roast you want whether 
before or after
               > > the point described above.  Jared
               > >
               > > homeroast mailing list
               > >http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast               > > To change your personal list settings (digest options,
vacations, 
               > unsvbscribes) go to
               >http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings               > > 
               >
               >
               >
               > --
               > Cheers,
               > Brett
               >
               >http://homeroast.freeservers.com

11) From: Dave Kvindlog
If I were to roast for 14 minutes in my hot air popper, I'd end up with
baked beans or a nice fire to warm up to.  I suspect it would be much
different in a drum.
Dave Kvindlog
iHomeroast
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
On 11/24/07, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>

12) From: Rick Copple
Brett Mason wrote:
<Snip>
I think a lot depends upon what you are roasting in. I mean, I had a 
popper that roasted the beans in four minutes to full city. At 4:20, it 
was moving into Vienna. When I extended that time out to past six 
minutes via long extension cord, the flavors started tasting baked and 
off. I can't explain it. I know everyone says that's way too fast, but 
even now I feel like that popper can extract great flavor from most 
beans. I also find it easier to hit a city roast in it than in my wok.
Likewise, in my wok, I rarely have a roast under 15 minutes. As a matter 
of fact, it seems if I don't get a bean to 15 minutes at least, whether 
I'm shooting for a city+ or full city+, the beans seemed under roasted. 
Some of that is due to the primary conductive method of a roast in a 
wok. Most of my roast to full city run around 16 to 18 minutes, 
depending on the bean.
So, best time will depend somewhat based upon what one is roasting in. 
But, I don't recall what method, if any, was being discussed in this 
thread. But I seem to recall, maybe on one of Tom's instructions, that 
one really began risking a baked roast when it went much beyond 20 
minutes. If I'm shooting for Vienna, it may take that long. But if I am 
shooting for city+, I would end up baking them if it stretched out that 
long. I've done that once. :)
-- 
Rick Copple

13) From: Tom Ulmer
My roasts are in a solid drum over a propane burner and the time references
you use are very near mine. Generally, anywhere from 10-17 minutes to first
with an additional 4-6 minutes to second and an immediate cooling works
quite well for me. A hurried roast does not seem to develop the flavors I
enjoy as well to me. 
Considering a Vienna roast - I've had some very pleasing results taking
first crack to 18 minutes and going right in to second. Conversely, when
thinking a lighter roast suitable - pushing 20 minutes to the end of first
has produced some wonderful flavors.

14) From: Edward Bourgeois
From what I've heard and learn the term "general" has not much value
in coffee roasting. With the introduction of the Behmor I now see 3
"general" roasting times favored. I believe Ken Davids speaks about
6+min. roasts with success. Many respected Roasters speak of 12-16min.
with success and now Joe mentions that the Behmor p2 setting on his
roaster, a 20min cycle is a result of discussion with Ted Lingle.
Whose right? I think all of them in "general".
On Nov 24, 2007 12:07 AM, Jared  wrote:
<Snip>

15) From: Brett Mason
The roaster is right.
In this case, Jared is right.  He may refine over time...
Brett
On Nov 24, 2007 9:27 AM, Edward Bourgeois  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

16) From: C. Herlihy
    On 11/24/07, miKe    mcKoffee  wrote:    I'd      tend to agree with you Jared, your general profile is indeed a      good
starting point, especially if that's how it tastes good to you.      Anything 
longer than 13 minute roast "baked"? Generally speaking I think      not. Had a
quite righteous after dinner Americano of Guatemala Gesha      14:30 total roast
time to City++ 440f finish bean temp.
Kona      Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee 
www.mcKonaKoffee.com
  At a PNWG a few years ago, soon after the first Geisha came on the scene, Les and I watched as the Stumptown roast master in Portland roasted a batch of it for espresso. First crack was dragged out for for 8 minutes plus, stopping just before second crack, for a total roast time of over 20 minutes.
 I generally like to hit first crack in my RK drum at around 10 minutes for 1 lb., and usually hit first at 13 (within a few seconds  of it) with a 5 lb. batch. How much longer after that depends on the type of beans and roast level desired. I'm willing to change those times if I find a profile that works better, as I have done in the past.
  Charly
            From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:      homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Brett      Mason
       Sent: Friday, November 23,      2007 9:48 PM
       To: homeroast
            Subject: Re: +Roasting Philosophy      
       OK      Jared,
       I was going to let the      comment ride about 15 minutes to see how
others will chime      in.  But you've kindly asked, so I'll point you to      -my-
approach.  (That and $4 will get you a free coffee at      Starbucks...) 
       If you go too      slow, you'll bake the beans and get a lousy roast
where the flavors vary      from off to icky...  -For me- roast should not be
shorter than      6 minutes start to finish, nor longer than 13 minutes start to      
finish.  I'd like 4 minutes after 1st crack until you kill it,      and
preferably just before 2nd crack, like Kvindlog does with his      watch...
       but that's just In My      Not So Humble Opinion...
              Brett 
---------------------------------
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites.  Make Yahoo! your homepage.

17) From: John Brown
okay so what is the message?
C. Herlihy wrote:
<Snip>

18) From: Brett Mason
The message is...
Post your philosophy, Ask for input
Others give input
Still other chime in why the input is not valid
Message to self... "Reply?  You could have had a V-8..."
Should have just had a V-8
Brett
On Nov 24, 2007 3:17 PM, John Brown  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

19) From: C. Herlihy
John Brown  wrote: okay so what is the message?
 Message, below---roasting more than 13 minutes doesn't necessarily mean "baked beans.  Get it now? ;o)
  Charly
C. Herlihy wrote:
<Snip>---------------------------------
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.

20) From: Jared
Thank you all for responding to my post.  I really mean it when I say
I would like to know the truth more than to be right and I respect all
of your opinions.  For what it is worth I have been a pan, popper,
HGDB, and now an RK drum roaster for about 5 years.  Although roast
method, roast times and temps and degree of roast are are very
important in the fine tuning of each bean I roast they are all a bit
irrelevant to my intended question which is about the best general
approach to roasting coffee.  To restate my general approach I often
visualize the roast process as a steady rise to first crack at a 45
degree angle with a punch at first crack making it a definitive and
non ambiguous event.  Then the rise in temp to the end of the roast is
at about a 10 degree angle.  The cooling cycle is to be fast but not
an attempt to be instantaneous.   The degrees are not intended to be
literal just a visual representation I think about.  Jared
On Nov 24, 2007 5:17 PM, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>

21) From: raymanowen
On Nov 24, 2007 9:25 PM, Jared  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

22) From: John Brown
on my email program it showed every thing in the original email,  not as 
a reply. so i did not know which was which.
that was why!
C. Herlihy wrote:
<Snip>

23) From: raymanowen
"The cooling cycle is to be fast but not an attempt to be instantaneous."
My cooling is fast, and that's exactly what I want. It is not instantaneous,
because that would require an impossibly high rate of heat transfer. I have
no desire to rewrite the laws of Physics.
When I flew in to Clark Air Base, it was always a positive experience to
stop right when we got there instead of just coasting. The South China Sea
was only a few seconds to the west at cruising speed. There was Mt. Arayat,
a volcano just to the east of base.
That wasn't the problem, with a north-south runway! Manila was just to the
south, so coming and going was usually to the north over rice paddies and
much smaller cities.
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO!
When you get where you're going- Stop!

24) From: gin
<Snip>
Ray-O, not that!!
g
---- raymanowen wrote: 
<Snip>

25) From: raymanowen
Just how should I know where I've been? I didn't know where I was when I was
there.
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
"Life is a lively process of becoming." - -Douglas
MacArthur

26) From: Steve
I am confused why the size of the batch would matter when talking
profiles.  Why would a larger batch equivalent roast take more time?
I'd think that 1/2 lb roasted for a 15 minute profile would taste the
same as 1 lb with the same 15 minute profile.
The reason I think these should be the same is because I am assuming
sufficient mixing that the environment of the beans is more or less
equivalent no matter the batch size.
I've been kind of curious about the Behmor, which has longer roasts
for larger batches.  Not sure I understand why that would be...

27) From: Vicki Smith
Ok, Steve, is there a point at which it would make sense? For example, 
would it make sense to you that it would take longer to roast 3 pounds 
than 1? how about 10?
This is ignoring the whole starting with an endothermic situation where 
you are applying heat to a mass of beans and then switching to an 
exothermic reaction where the beans will apply heat to you if you're not 
careful.
I haven't thought about it a whole bunch, but if the amount of heat I am 
throwing at the beans is a constant, and the beans are grabbing up the 
heat as I throw it, then, a lot of heat grabbing beans will need more 
time to get the heat needed to roast than a smaller number of beans.
v
Steve wrote:
<Snip>

28) From: Steve
Vicki,
There really isn't a point at which a constant time profile wouldn't
make sense, within reason.  What would make sense is that the heat
output of the roaster would have to increase to affect the same
temperature increase.  So given something like the Behmor, I guess I
would expect the duty cycle of the heating element to need to
increase.  Another thing to consider is the assumption of even
mixing.  Mixing gets harder as things get bigger because the surface
area to volume ratio goes down.
Perhaps that is the key, that ideal mixing is a bad assumption and
that for the larger batches, it simply takes more time to get the
beans going.  That in effect is a different profile, from the bean's
point of view.
I guess what I am asking is if a 1/2# batch roasts in a shorter amount
of time than a 1# batch, then isn't that essentially a different
profile?
e.g., if I think a coffee would benefit from a longer roast profile,
then could I not simply increase the mass I am roasting, thus
extending the roast time?
On Nov 25, 9:04 pm, Vicki Smith  wrote:
<Snip>

29) From: Vicki Smith
These discussions always seem a bit pointless to me (that would be the 
social worker in me speaking)  so I shouldn't written the first 
response, I guess.
If you look at the pages Tom has up on the site about the Behmor you 
will se some graphs with various ways to reach the temps needed to roast 
coffee. These humpy things are pictures of profiles--time is only one 
aspect of them, and is, indeed, a function of the amount of beans in the 
batch, all other things being equal.
If you are saying all other things should not be equal, and that if the 
amount of heat is varied, then time is no longer such a big deal, well, 
ummm, yup.
vicki (making a far from graceful exit out of a discussion that is more 
engineering than she can really deal with)
Steve wrote:
<Snip>

30) From: miKe mcKoffee
IF you're talking profile roasting WITH bean mass temp feedback AND adequate
mixing AND adequate variable heat and airflow THEN yes 1 bean can roast
virtually the same as X pounds.
If referring specifically to the Behmor or any other off the shelf home
roasting appliance such is not the case.
Kona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
www.mcKonaKoffee.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
<Snip>

31) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
The key is controlled air popper roasting. If Mike (just plain) were to do a
14 minute PID controlled P1 roast it would be a just about perfect med roast
for espresso, same for my Rosto roasting.
Kona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
www.mcKonaKoffee.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/ 
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Dave Kvindlog
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 10:31 PM
If I were to roast for 14 minutes in my hot air popper, I'd end up with
baked beans or a nice fire to warm up to.  I suspect it would be much
different in a drum.
 
Dave Kvindlog
iHomeroast
Cedar Rapids, Iowa

32) From: Homeroaster
Think of the beans as little refrigerators that need to be brought into 
submission.
The room temp beans absorb heat when they are added to the roaster.  More 
beans, more heat absorbed, and the more heat that needs to be added to the 
roaster environment to keep the beans happy.  If the roaster heat doesn't 
increase with a larger batch size, then the time will increase.   To get one 
bean from point A temp to point B temp, the heat absorption is C.  If you 
have two beans, then the heat absorption is 2xC.  1000 beans is 1000xC.  To 
cause all the beans in each example to absorb the same amount of heat would 
necessitate varying the heat input, or extending the time.  The preferred 
way is to vary the heat input and keep the time the same, knowing that the 
processes going on 'inside' the bean are what's important.
You've got to think like a bean.  It's the bean temperature at various 
points in the roast that matters, not the measured roaster temperature.
Clear as mud.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

33) From: Steve
Vicki,
Thank you for your input; your response actually got me thinking about
my even mixing assumption.  I hope I didn't come off as dismissive; it
wasn't my intent.  I think the discussion is on point if one can
notice the difference between a long and short profile.  It might
drive how many beans you choose to roast at a given time.  My palette
is no so developed, but I still wonder about the questions...
Mike,
This bean mass thing; its always puzzled me.  Do the expensive
roasters have probes inside the bean mass, or do they correlate it to
external temperatures through some sort of bean model?  I've heard
fluid beds are nearly impossible to model.  I guess that would apply
to a rotating drum as well.  If the second, maybe we homeroasters have
a chance after all?
All,
On an unrelated note, I just took my Behmor 1# P5 time D to second
crack without adding any time with a full pound of beans.  I wonder if
my Behmor roasts hot.  There doesn't seem to be any pause between
first and second crack.  On this bean, I was still hearing occasional
pops of first crack when the first snaps of second were heard.  Again
I waited until the crackle of a rolling second to stop my roast.  This
surprised me a bit, because I thought P5 was supposed to be the
"slowest" profile.  The bean was Cameroon Caplami Java.
I like my roasts dark, so its all good, but its something that has
eluded me is getting a good pause between first and second crack.
This has kept me from experimenting with City+ and City roasts, since
I don't want to stop the roast before first crack is over...
Steve
On Nov 25, 10:06 pm, "miKe mcKoffee"  wrote:
<Snip>

34) From: Sean Cary
I do 12-14 minutes all the time in my poppery 1 - I use the fan to
control the bean movement, but I rarely hit first crack before the 12
minute mark...on purpose.
Sean
On Nov 24, 2007 9:30 AM, Dave Kvindlog  wrote:
<Snip>

35) From: miKe mcKoffee
Suppose it depends on what you mean by "expensive". I don't know of any
stock off the shelf "home" roasting appliance that monitors bean mass temp,
including any stock HotTop. Not until you get to the really serious multi
thousand dollar roasters. However many people have added bean temp
monitoring to various roasters including air poppers. Used a simple bi-metal
thermometer in my Rosto with manual variable heat & air control for years
for quite accurate quite repeatable profile roasts.
In the case of the off the shelf home roasting appliances like the HotTops,
Iroast, and Gene Cafe with pseudo temp profile control only environment temp
is monitored with varying degrees of accuracy and repeatability, not bean
mass temps. The problem with only monitoring environment versus bean mass
temps is different beans absorb heat at different rates or same bean
different batch sizes similar problem.
Besides not monitoring bean mass temp one of the biggest limitations of the
Behmor IMO is the hard set "profiles". Easily rectified splitting the heater
circuit for independent variable voltage control. Would also benefit from a
faster rpm drum enabling better mixing and heat transfer. Great unit for the
price and easily modified for greater flexibility.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
<Snip>

36) From: Wes Tyler
Mike...I know from Les' comment and others that you control an air roast as well as any and much better than most. Now that you are roasting in a drum, Hot Top and Behmor, what is the difference in taste using the same profile in air or drum? Are some coffees better in one or the other at least to your taste? Hope things are up to your expectations at the Kafe! That is definitely on my places to visit list.
----- Original Message ----
From: miKe mcKoffee 
To: homeroast
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 10:09:46 PM
Subject: RE: +Roasting Philosophy
The key is controlled air popper roasting. If Mike (just 
plain) were to do a 14 minute PID controlled P1 roast it would be a just about 
perfect med roast for espresso, same for my Rosto 
roasting.
Kona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
www.mcKonaKoffee.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes 
etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the 
quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must first not know. And 
in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment found exploring the many 
divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - 
Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/  From: homeroast-admin 
  [mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Dave 
  Kvindlog
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 10:31 PM
  If I were to roast for 14 minutes in my hot air popper, I'd end up with 
  baked beans or a nice fire to warm up to.  I suspect it would be much 
  different in a drum.
  Dave Kvindlog
  iHomeroast
  Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. 
Make Yahoo! your homepage.http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

37) From: Jim Gundlach
I've been thinking about profiles for a few years now but I have not  
been able to experiment with profiles as much as I would like.  The  
first problem is that the way I get maximum control over roasting, in  
a wok over a gas flame supplemented with a heatgun, has been vetoed by  
my wife because of the chaff problem.  If I could describe my ideal  
roast pofile now I would say a relatively slow drying through the hay  
scent stage, say six minutes, then a rather quick run up to rolling  
first crack by minute eleven, moving to a slow, almost stalled run  
through the pause between cracks to the end just before second crack  
at about minute sixteen or seventeen.  I would end with a quick, about  
two minutes at most, cool down to a temperature that I could  
comfortably hold in my hand.  My feeling is that this reduces  
brightness and builds body along with the more complex flavors.
     This should get us arguing on a coffee related topic.
         pecan jim
On Nov 23, 2007, at 11:07 PM, Jared wrote:
<Snip>

38) From: Jared
Jim, thanks for your thoughtfully post.  After reading it and another
off list post I think my general roast philosophy will add about a 5
to 6 minute "relatively slow" drying process with a "rather quick run
up to rolling first crack by minute eleven."  This is different than
my steady rise to first crack.  I have learned that our very fresh
beans have a higher moisture content that lends itself to a drying
stage before first crack.  Jared.
On Nov 26, 2007 8:43 PM, Jim Gundlach  wrote:
<Snip>

39) From: raymanowen
"...arguing on a coffee related topic."
No Way! I agree completely. -ro
On Nov 26, 2007 7:43 PM, Jim Gundlach  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

40) From: Homeroaster
I think there may be some logic in Jim's post, but I am reluctant to assume 
the positive result is from 'drying'.  Rather, I think it's in spite of 
drying, where the moisture actually gives the chemical reactions something 
to react with.  If a slower ramp to first works, I would think it is because 
it is due to having the appropriate temperatures for the flavorful reactions 
to happen.
Think about other 'non-enzymatic' browning* events, such as caramelizing 
onions in a skillet or browning cheese on a pizza.  If you brown onions too 
hot and fast, the flavor is harsh.  A slower cooking process, where there is 
plenty of liquid, but not too much allows the caramelization and 
intensifying of the sweetness and aroma to occur.  Cook it too slow though, 
and all the moisture dries up and the browning/caramelization quickly turns 
to carbonization since the moisture buffer is gone.
Analogies sometimes don't work, but I think this is a bit more than an 
analogy.  It's basically the same process, turning sugars to caramels and 
carbons.
*non-enzymatic browning is what happens chemically, without heat on an 
enzymatic level, such as the browning of cut apples or potatoes.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

41) From: Jim Gundlach
While I describe the cycle as drying, I tend to look at it more from  
the perspective of drying wood rather than chemistry.  In wood, and I  
believe in green coffee beans, there is moisture within the cells and  
moisture between the cells.  I think the early drying only removes the  
between cells moisture.  (This is beginning to sound a bit like a  
statistics lecture. ) However, if the between cell drying is done too  
fast, I think it does not make it all the way to the middle of the  
bean.  Once the between cell moisture is removed, you are ready to  
ramp up to first crack which I believe fractures cells with pressure  
from the within cells moisture converted to steam.  When those  
explosions take place I see so much happening chemically that I don't  
think I will ever get my mind around much of it but caramelizing  
sugars is certainly a big part of it.
    In short, my thinking is that a longer early drying cycle gets rid  
of the deeper between cells moisture and makes for a more thorough  
first crack process.  Now, I really have no data to back any of this  
up, this is just the picture of what is going on that I have created  
in my minds eye.
     pecan jim
On Nov 27, 2007, at 1:59 PM, Homeroaster wrote:
<Snip>

42) From: Eddie Dove
Jim,
While on vacation, I was reading an article that aligns with your thoughts.
 I was a bit apprehensive about posting a link, but I then remembered a post
a good while back from Jeremy DeFranco in which the very same article was
referenced.  That original HTML post is quoted below and the first time
"This" refers to a link is the article I was referring to.
Eddie
-- 
Vita non est vivere sed valere vita est
Roasting Blog and Profiles for the Gene Cafehttp://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/----------------------  Begin Quote by Jeremy DeFranco
----------------------
---This is a long post. I probably should apologize now and get it over
with ;).
Please don't apologize, this is a great topic, and I will reply with
likewise long post!
---Now, I'm wondering how other people approach profiling. Do certain kinds
of beans, certain origins, things like DP vs WP
influence or determine the way you roast?
Certainly, all these factors have a great impact on the way a particular
bean responds to the roasting process. An easy way to divide your beans into
separate profiles is by bean density- Hard, Medium Hard, Soft.
Thisarticle discusses this
method in some more detail.
Thisarticle
goes into further detail about how to set up a profile for Hard
beans. As far as processing goes, the same author mentions that processing
method greatly affects roast characteristic. The reason being that method of
processing has a profound affect on how the bean pore structure "sets up" as
it dries out. Unfortunately, he doesn't go into detail about this, and I
would greatly appreciate if someone on this list could explain this
phenomenon. The author does hint, however, that dry process is better suited
to a lower heat profile than a wet process might (wet process would take
better to higher heat profile than a dry-process). Any reasoning anyone has
for this would be greatly appreciated : ). So to answer your question, yes
bean type determines the way I roast (although I haven't quite got it all
figured out yet : ) ).
---I'm not thinking roast levels
as much as I am thinking about things like:
* slow or fast buildup to 1st
* time elapsed between beginning and end of first
* time between the end of 1st and the beginning of 2nd (if you go that far)
      I have not been roasting long enough to have any good answers to these
questions, so someone with some more experience would be better suited to
answer these questions. I will offer my 0.02, though, and what I have read
from experienced roasters so far.
      What seems to be one consensus is that time between beginning of 1st
crack and end of roast (no matter what degree it be) be atleast 3 minutes
long. This seems to give the best flavor in more experienced roasters'
opinions (exceptions likely apply). There was a recent post that questioned
max time between beginning of 1st and end of roast, and the general
consensus seemed to be about 6 minutes, although I'm sure there are
exceptions to this, as well. Extending roast too long runs the risk of
depleting the beans of precious volatiles, while not long enough runs risk
of having too much cholergenic acid, and hence a bitter taste (the amount of
cholergenic acid is indirectly proportional to total time of roast).
     Time between beginning and end of 1st can be important as well. Too
quick means you are most likely letting exothermic reactions take over the
roast, and your roast will run out of control. A smooth roast rofile will be
lost. Too long a time may mean you are stalling the roast, and not letting
vital chemical reactions take place, leading to a "baked" or flat cup. So,
an easy answer would not be any specific time period, per say, but rather a
first crack that is properly controlled. This leaves lots of room for
manipulation... You could do a 1st crack that does not have extremely rapid
pops, but not 1 pop every 20 seconds either at peak rate of 1st. OR you
could  do a 1st crack that maintains the slope you had at warmup ( i.e. a
faster progressing 1st crack that is still controlled). Although there are
always exceptions- some beans will have barely audible 1st cracks,
regardless.
     Slow or fast buildup to 1st is a much more controversial topic, it
seems. This is also a topic I have no clue or experience with as of yet, and
it seems hard to find any consensus w/ this info. Some people favor an ~ 45
degree slope to 1st, some like to do a slowly increasing slope to 1st. Some
people always do a drying phase. Some only do drying phase for beans with
moisture content over 13%. Some do warmup phase. Some do not. It would be
interesting to hear theories on this. I hope to know better with more
experience, reading, and tasting. What does seem to be agreed upon, though,
is that you do not want to heat the beans so rapidly as to carmelize the
outside while the inside is just getting warmed up, and you don't want to go
so slow, as to bake the beans. All area in-between seems grey and
controversial. I would love to hear opinions and experience.
     Final thing to keep in mind would be that what is for sure is that any
different profile that takes the same bean to an identical endpoint (City,
FC, etc.) will create a dramatically different flavor profile. It might also
be best not to characterize each profile as "good" or "bad", but rather
unique in its own regard. Like with roasters or brewers, each is different,
and comes along with its own idiosynchrasies.
     Here are some other good articles worth a read:
     http://groups.google.com/group/alt.coffee/browse_frm/thread/4ad50880e24e13cd/251f56bb9248b8a0?lnk=gst&q=roasting&rnum=5&hl=en#251f56bb9248b8a0     http://groups.google.com/group/alt.coffee/browse_frm/thread/1c8d61f9d164fcf5/233bb1182d4d21b8?lnk=gst&q=roasting&rnum&hl=en#233bb1182d4d21b8     http://groups.google.com/group/alt.coffee/browse_frm/thread/4c5030a590ad400/fd767a4ae327694a?lnk=gst&q=roasting&rnum9&hl=en#fd767a4ae327694a     -http://www.sweetmarias.com/roast.carlstaub.html     http://www.masterroaster.com/articles/cuppers.html----------------------  End Quote by Jeremy DeFranco  ----------------------">http://www.bootcoffee.com/articles.html     http://groups.google.com/group/alt.coffee/browse_frm/thread/4ad50880e24e13cd/251f56bb9248b8a0?lnk=gst&q=roasting&rnum=5&hl=en#251f56bb9248b8a0     http://groups.google.com/group/alt.coffee/browse_frm/thread/1c8d61f9d164fcf5/233bb1182d4d21b8?lnk=gst&q=roasting&rnum&hl=en#233bb1182d4d21b8     http://groups.google.com/group/alt.coffee/browse_frm/thread/4c5030a590ad400/fd767a4ae327694a?lnk=gst&q=roasting&rnum9&hl=en#fd767a4ae327694a     -http://www.sweetmarias.com/roast.carlstaub.html     http://www.masterroaster.com/articles/cuppers.html----------------------  End Quote by Jeremy DeFranco  ----------------------
On Nov 27, 2007 3:37 PM, Jim Gundlach  wrote:
<Snip>

43) From: Jared
Ok here is an analogy on your analogy which is sure to be exponentially
further from the truth but here goes anyway.  When you wrote
"Think about other 'non-enzymatic' browning* events, such as caramelizing
onions in a skillet..."   I thought about what happens when you try to brown
onions, ground meat or other things but put too much in the pan.  It goes
from a browning event to a simmering or almost boiling event.  I wonder if
the drying process is a way to remove some of the moisture so you can get on
top of the heat process when you then apply more serious heat later.   Jared

44) From: Homeroaster
I certainly can't disagree.  It makes sense that the inter-cellular moisture 
(between cells) that is easiest for the heat to get to, would dissipate 
first as you theorize.  The intra-cellular moisture, locked within little 
insulated cellular packets would absorb heat more slowly.
reference:http://www.sweetmarias.com/defects_seedstructure/defects_seedstructure-Pages/Image12.htmlLooking at the pictures though, I'm thinking the woody cell walls might be ">http://www.sweetmarias.com/defects_seedstructure/defects_seedstructure-Pages/Image11.htmlandhttp://www.sweetmarias.com/defects_seedstructure/defects_seedstructure-Pages/Image12.htmlLooking at the pictures though, I'm thinking the woody cell walls might be 
harder for the heat to penetrate than the inner cell.
I'm not sure where we could head from here in this discussion, but hey, it's 
fun to surmise.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

45) From: Alchemist John
Actually, I think it is the other way around.  I tend to think it 
approaches most of the profiles too slow, drying the bean (I hesitate 
to say too much) more than most of us roast.  I tend to have run 
together 1st and 2nd when my end ramp is too steep and the drying 
phase quite long - basically what the Behmor gives.
What is the p5 D time?
At 19:32 11/25/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
John Nanci
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.chocolatealchemy.com/

46) From: Homeroaster
There may be something to that, although at around 13% moisture level when 
it leaves the mill, it's significantly less moisture than onions or meat. 
It does seem that after the steam is released at first crack, the browning 
does speed up.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

47) From: Jared
I did 2lbs of Chiapas in the RK last night with the first  6 minutes about a
100 degrees lower than usual in an attempt to  then a steady rise in temp to
first crack at 13 minutes with second at 17.  I got one of the most thorough
first cracks I can remember (at least by sound).   I have often wondered why
I get a wide range in the number of cracks at first and hope this drying
thing is the answer.   Jared
On Nov 27, 2007 10:58 PM, Homeroaster  wrote:
<Snip>

48) From: Brian Kamnetz
On Nov 27, 2007 11:58 PM, Homeroaster  wrote:
<Snip>
Ed, I am no physicist/chemist, but it seems that since the beans also
expand at first crack, the bean would be less dense, and that may
contribute to the faster browning.
Brian

49) From: Homeroaster
Makes perfect sense.  And it would allow less obstruction for heat to 
penetrate to the center of the bean.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************


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