HomeRoast Digest


Topic: sour coffee (35 msgs / 1507 lines)
1) From: JoAnne Phillips
John Brown got his new Behmore and invited me to bring some coffee I  
wanted to roast and we would try it out.
This was an offer I couldn't refuse and so gathered up some IMV which  
I've so far not roasted at all, and some of the India Tree Dried  
Natural which in two attempts had totally bogged down my iRoast.
This was on the 13th or 14th, so both had had a good rest and I was  
anxious to try them out.  I ran some rice through my Maestro and  
brushed it out real good so I was ready.  The first was the IMV.  The  
water was just off the boil as I'd swirled it until there were no  
more bubbles and I made it like I always do in my AP.  The coffee had  
been stopped, "cooled", about a minute after first crack ended and  
looked like a good C+.  The cup was awful.  Sour and off in all  
respects.
The Tree Dried Natural, which got away from us a bit as 2nd came  
almost on top of 1st crack ended up as a FC++ or maybe a Vienna as  
there is quite a bit of oil here and there.  It however, is a good  
enjoyable cup - not what we were aiming for, but very drinkable.
The TDN made something of a mess of the drum however as the chaff got  
very dark.  We roasted both coffees on P1 and several beans dropped  
out on the TDN roast.  This coffee expands at an unbelievable rate  
when roasted and even a 2 oz roast bogged down my iRoast and wouldn't  
circulate.  The IMV, on the other hand, caused no problems and crack  
was very audible.  The machine is more quiet than a microwave!!
I've never experienced sour coffee before - and hope I never do  
again, the taste lingered  all afternoon and I felt half sick.  Can  
anyone tell me what we did wrong?
JoAnne in Tucson

2) From: Brett Mason
Hi Joanne,
Just me, but here's what I would do different -
  1. roast until the first couple snaps into 2nd
  2. grind more coarse
  3. brew at a higher temp, almost boiling...
You'll get other inputs - but this is what I would do...
Brett
On Dec 19, 2007 6:13 PM, JoAnne Phillips  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

3) From: Bryan Wray
I have a draft typed up, but I need to fill in some profiles that I use for IMV on my Behmor, but I'm not on my laptop, which is where I have all of the profiles saved, I will send you a response as soon as I'm am back on my laptop and can grab those profiles.
-Bry
 
Bryan Wray
NaDean's Coffee Place/
Dino's Coffee Lounge
Kalamazoo, MI
"It is my hope that people realize that coffee is more than just a caffeine delivery service, it can be a culinary art"- Chris Owens.
       
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.

4) From: RK
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
snip: Brett Mason post on JoAnne Phillips post of sour coffee
<Snip>
.
That was what I would suggest also
RK

5) From: JoAnne Phillips
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The water was boiling, I swirled to get it to stop bubbling.  It  
wasn't caused by cool water, believe me.
JoAnne
On Dec 19, 2007, at 5:57 PM, RK wrote:
snip: Brett Mason post on JoAnne Phillips post of sour coffee
 >. brew at a higher temp, almost boiling..
.
That was what I would suggest also
RK
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The water was boiling, I swirled to get it to stop bubbling.  It =
wasn't caused by cool water, believe me. =
 JoAnne
On Dec 19, 2007, at 5:57 PM, RK =
wrote:
snip: Brett Mason post on JoAnne Phillips post of sour = coffee >. brew at a = higher temp, almost boiling...That was what I would suggest = alsoRK = --Apple-Mail-3-764367952--

6) From: Brett Mason
Try numbers 1 and 2...
Brett
On Dec 19, 2007 7:41 PM, JoAnne Phillips  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

7) From: Ross
JoAnne,
I too have experienced the dreaded sour roasts.  What I found was- - sour 
coffee is generally a result of roasting temperatures too hot and time too 
fast or just -not enough roast time to completely heat the core of the bean 
resulting in a sour/under roasted bean core.  The remedy is to lower the 
temp ramp of your profile or extend your profile to allow the entire bean to 
come to roast temp.   As for trying to salvage a batch of  underroasted 
beans, well-- I have heard of putting them on a cookie sheet under the 
broiler, or just running them through again, but I would never admit to it! 
Ross
also from Tucson

8) From: JoAnne Phillips
Oh wow!  Another roaster in Tucson!  That makes at least three of  
us.  What area are you in Ross?  I'm in the Tucson Mts and John is  
clean across town.  I kid him and say he's half way to El Paso.  What  
are you roasting with and how long have you been at it?
JoAnne in Tucson
On Dec 19, 2007, at 7:50 PM, Ross wrote:
JoAnne,
I too have experienced the dreaded sour roasts.  What I found was- -  
sour coffee is generally a result of roasting temperatures too hot  
and time too fast or just -not enough roast time to completely heat  
the core of the bean resulting in a sour/under roasted bean core.   
The remedy is to lower the temp ramp of your profile or extend your  
profile to allow the entire bean to come to roast temp.   As for  
trying to salvage a batch of  underroasted beans, well-- I have heard  
of putting them on a cookie sheet under the broiler, or just running  
them through again, but I would never admit to it! 
Ross
also from Tucson

9) From: miKe mcKoffee
I usually roast IMV to 436f City+, well before first hint of 2nd. One of the
keys to a lighter roast is long enough time from start of first to end of
roast, usually minimum 3.5 to 4min. desirable. However sour isn't
necessarily an indication of an undeveloped roast but as Brett indicated too
low brew temp.
 
I do disagree with grinding more coarse to element sour. Roasting darker
would just mean lower brew temp possible, not necessarily better and not
necessarily worse either!
 
Sorry Brett, couldn't disagree with you on all counts!
:-)
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Brett Mason
	Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:27 PM
	
	Hi Joanne,
	
	Just me, but here's what I would do different - 
	  1. roast until the first couple snaps into 2nd
	  2. grind more coarse
	  3. brew at a higher temp, almost boiling...
	
	You'll get other inputs - but this is what I would do... 
	Brett
	
	On Dec 19, 2007 6:13 PM, JoAnne Phillips 
wrote:
	
		John Brown got his new Behmore and invited me to bring some
coffee I
		wanted to roast and we would try it out.
		
		This was an offer I couldn't refuse and so gathered up some
IMV which
		I've so far not roasted at all, and some of the India Tree
Dried 
		Natural which in two attempts had totally bogged down my
iRoast.
		
		This was on the 13th or 14th, so both had had a good rest
and I was
		anxious to try them out.  I ran some rice through my Maestro
and
		brushed it out real good so I was ready.  The first was the
IMV.  The 
		water was just off the boil as I'd swirled it until there
were no
		more bubbles and I made it like I always do in my AP.  The
coffee had
		been stopped, "cooled", about a minute after first crack
ended and 
		looked like a good C+.  The cup was awful.  Sour and off in
all
		respects.
		
		The Tree Dried Natural, which got away from us a bit as 2nd
came
		almost on top of 1st crack ended up as a FC++ or maybe a
Vienna as 
		there is quite a bit of oil here and there.  It however, is
a good
		enjoyable cup - not what we were aiming for, but very
drinkable.
		
		The TDN made something of a mess of the drum however as the
chaff got
		very dark.  We roasted both coffees on P1 and several beans
dropped 
		out on the TDN roast.  This coffee expands at an
unbelievable rate
		when roasted and even a 2 oz roast bogged down my iRoast and
wouldn't
		circulate.  The IMV, on the other hand, caused no problems
and crack
		was very audible.  The machine is more quiet than a
microwave!!
		
		I've never experienced sour coffee before - and hope I never
do
		again, the taste lingered  all afternoon and I felt half
sick.  Can
		anyone tell me what we did wrong? 
		
		JoAnne in Tucson

10) From: JoAnne Phillips
I truly do not see how the brew temp could have been too low.  The  
water was boiling and all I did was give it a swirl and walk it  
across the kitchen and pour over the ground coffee in my AP.  This is  
how I always make my coffee and it has never been sour before.  We  
used P1 on the Behmore and even added some extra time near the end to  
give 1st crack time to completely finish and to give it about a  
minute into the lull.  I truly felt we had a perfect roast so was  
extra disappointed.  I've not heard from John as to how his turned  
out.  I can't really try it again as the roaster is not mine - next  
time I will use the FR8 so I can hear the cracks.  If I have a bean  
that is acting up, I will use the FR8 so I can roast by the cracks.   
I simply cannot hear them in the iRoast so try to go by color and  
smell (not very accurate).  I was really excited about using the  
Behmore and being able to try a drum roast and hear the cracks too.
Time before 1st crack was somewhere around 13-14 minutes -- should  
have been long enough.
JoAnne in Tucson
On Dec 19, 2007, at 9:21 PM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
I usually roast IMV to 436f City+, well before first hint of 2nd. One  
of the
keys to a lighter roast is long enough time from start of first to  
end of
roast, usually minimum 3.5 to 4min. desirable. However sour isn't
necessarily an indication of an undeveloped roast but as Brett  
indicated too
low brew temp.
I do disagree with grinding more coarse to element sour. Roasting darker
would just mean lower brew temp possible, not necessarily better and not
necessarily worse either!
Sorry Brett, couldn't disagree with you on all counts!
:-)
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I  ">http://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I  
must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal  
enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone  
before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Brett Mason
	Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 4:27 PM
	
	Hi Joanne,
	
	Just me, but here's what I would do different -
	  1. roast until the first couple snaps into 2nd
	  2. grind more coarse
	  3. brew at a higher temp, almost boiling...
	
	You'll get other inputs - but this is what I would do...
	Brett
	
	On Dec 19, 2007 6:13 PM, JoAnne Phillips 
wrote:
	
		John Brown got his new Behmore and invited me to bring some
coffee I
		wanted to roast and we would try it out.
		
		This was an offer I couldn't refuse and so gathered up some
IMV which
		I've so far not roasted at all, and some of the India Tree
Dried
		Natural which in two attempts had totally bogged down my
iRoast.
		
		This was on the 13th or 14th, so both had had a good rest
and I was
		anxious to try them out.  I ran some rice through my Maestro
and
		brushed it out real good so I was ready.  The first was the
IMV.  The
		water was just off the boil as I'd swirled it until there
were no
		more bubbles and I made it like I always do in my AP.  The
coffee had
		been stopped, "cooled", about a minute after first crack
ended and
		looked like a good C+.  The cup was awful.  Sour and off in
all
		respects.
		
		The Tree Dried Natural, which got away from us a bit as 2nd
came
		almost on top of 1st crack ended up as a FC++ or maybe a
Vienna as
		there is quite a bit of oil here and there.  It however, is
a good
		enjoyable cup - not what we were aiming for, but very
drinkable.
		
		The TDN made something of a mess of the drum however as the
chaff got
		very dark.  We roasted both coffees on P1 and several beans
dropped
		out on the TDN roast.  This coffee expands at an
unbelievable rate
		when roasted and even a 2 oz roast bogged down my iRoast and
wouldn't
		circulate.  The IMV, on the other hand, caused no problems
and crack
		was very audible.  The machine is more quiet than a
microwave!!
		
		I've never experienced sour coffee before - and hope I never
do
		again, the taste lingered  all afternoon and I felt half
sick.  Can
		anyone tell me what we did wrong?
		
		JoAnne in Tucson

11) From: John Brown
i did not care for it but after i blended it with all the  other small 
left over bits it wasw just fine
JoAnne Phillips wrote:
<Snip>

12) From: Bryan Wray
Well, IMV being my bean of choice right now, and Behmor being my roaster, hopefully I (and we...!) can help you come to a conclusion, but the first thing that jumps to my mind is that perhaps you are confusing acidity with sour.  I don't mean for this to be insulting at all, I'm pretty new to the list, only about 3 months or so, so if your palette is well experienced enough to know the difference (which by your posts it seems to be), then don't take any offense or anything, that's just what comes to mind first.  IMV is a pretty bright coffee anyway and I know many of the customers that I offer it up to think that is is very "sour," but after I explain the difference between acidity and sour, they normally say, "Oh, well then I guess it just has high acidity."  Maybe this is true in your case, but maybe not.
Other than that, I would say try using a gentler profile...  You said you used P1, which I don't really recommend for IMV, but other than that I don't know what your settings were.  Here's what I use when I am roasting for french press:
113g (1/4lb) on 1/4 setting, P2, 9:30 to start adding 30 seconds after the roast has started.  First crack normally comes 8:00 minutes or so into the roast.  I have stopped the roast manually with 15-10 seconds left on the timer, but normally it finishes out automatically just fine and it comes out to a nice full city, which is where I like this coffee a little more.
When roasting for espresso:
113g (1/4lb) on 1/2 setting, P4, time to start 12:30.  First crack is normally around 9:15-9:30, second crack around 11:00-11:45.  I let it roast in second for 8-15 seconds, then hit cool.  This brings out a nice full city/full city+ roast and makes for a great SO shot.
HTH
-Bry
  
Bryan Wray
NaDean's Coffee Place/
Dino's Coffee Lounge
Kalamazoo, MI
"It is my hope that people realize that coffee is more than just a caffeine delivery service, it can be a culinary art"- Chris Owens.
       
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

13) From: Lynne
I'll admit to it!
What I do to save a roast that turns sour (for whatever reason - could be
the java-gods might have it out for me on that day...) is to re-roast. I put
it back in a pan on the stove & heat it just a bit (stirring constantly).
Jo-Anne, I did a roast some months past. It was beautiful - think it was a
Gesha. I was ever so careful with this roast, and it turned out beautiful.
In fact, I'd say it was the most beautiful looking bean I'd roasted since I
started.
When it came time to taste - blech!!!!!! UGH!!! It was the worst.
Think that one wasn't even salvageable with re-roasting - it was so sad.
I can't help w/the Behmore, since I don't have one - but the moral of the
story is: you can't tell by looking. My weirdest looking roasts are
sometimes the best tasting! (and also, this is continuous learning
process...)
Lynne
Ross wrote:
<Snip>

14) From: Les
First off now that I have about 30 roasts on the Behmor under my belt, I
have to say it really is an excellent 1/2 pound roaster, but you are pushing
the limits roasting a pound.  I picked up on what Oaxaca Charlie said awhile
back and I have been cheating or maybe better to say tweaking my roasts.
One thing the Behmor has taught me is that 1st crack is exothermic.  When
1st crack really gets going the chamber heats up enough to shut down the
heating elements.  To get rid of the sour in the IMV, I have been opening
the door when 1st crack is going well for 45 seconds to a minute to cool the
roast down and slow first crack down.  Yes I get smoke, but I roast in the
garage.  I can then close the door and get a good "dead" spot of about a
minute and a half before stopping the roast.  I hit the cool button, let it
cool for a minute, this gives me about 2.5 to 3 minutes of roasting after
1st crack without going into second.  I then open the door and use a hot
glove and take out the chaff screen.  It is a big heat sink and retains too
much heat to get the beans to cool as fast as I like.  I then assist the
Behmor's cooling by using my Shop vac to suck hot air out of the chamber
with the door down.  This removes chaff and heat at the same time.  I do
this for about 5 minutes.  It really cools things down.  I then close the
Behmor door and let the programed cooling cycle finish.  I am getting a
much better brew using this method.  I have not had good roasts using
anything but P1 with a pound of coffee.   The programs do much better with a
half pound.  I hope this helps.  I would say you have a sour roast because
it is under roasted.  I have a couple of more tweaking ideas to try and will
report on them in the future.  Tweaking is not the same as modifying the
roaster.  I am not going there.  Joe has done a great job with the
limitations he imposed on himself (electric; 120 volts; a price under
$300.00; able to roast a pound).
Les
On 12/20/07, Lynne  wrote:
<Snip>

15) From: Ross
Hi JoAnne,
I'm in the NE Sabino Canyon, area.  I guess we have the town covered.  I'm 
now using the RK drum in a dedicated grill, a great 1 to 2 lb roaster, no 
excuses-it gives me total control.  The only time I have trouble is when I 
go to the fridge for a Corona and get delayed cutting lime.  I really feel 
sorry for all these guys talking about cold temps and snow this time of 
year. 
Regards,
Ross

16) From: Tim Harvey
I had the same thing happen with a kenya-it was almost like drinking grapefruit juice.  I had roasted it to a city+ as well.  I'd try to fc/fc+ and see if it "kills" the sour fruitiness, it worked for me on the kenya.
TIM
---- JoAnne Phillips  wrote: 
=============
John Brown got his new Behmore and invited me to bring some coffee I  
wanted to roast and we would try it out.
This was an offer I couldn't refuse and so gathered up some IMV which  
I've so far not roasted at all, and some of the India Tree Dried  
Natural which in two attempts had totally bogged down my iRoast.
This was on the 13th or 14th, so both had had a good rest and I was  
anxious to try them out.  I ran some rice through my Maestro and  
brushed it out real good so I was ready.  The first was the IMV.  The  
water was just off the boil as I'd swirled it until there were no  
more bubbles and I made it like I always do in my AP.  The coffee had  
been stopped, "cooled", about a minute after first crack ended and  
looked like a good C+.  The cup was awful.  Sour and off in all  
respects.
The Tree Dried Natural, which got away from us a bit as 2nd came  
almost on top of 1st crack ended up as a FC++ or maybe a Vienna as  
there is quite a bit of oil here and there.  It however, is a good  
enjoyable cup - not what we were aiming for, but very drinkable.
The TDN made something of a mess of the drum however as the chaff got  
very dark.  We roasted both coffees on P1 and several beans dropped  
out on the TDN roast.  This coffee expands at an unbelievable rate  
when roasted and even a 2 oz roast bogged down my iRoast and wouldn't  
circulate.  The IMV, on the other hand, caused no problems and crack  
was very audible.  The machine is more quiet than a microwave!!
I've never experienced sour coffee before - and hope I never do  
again, the taste lingered  all afternoon and I felt half sick.  Can  
anyone tell me what we did wrong?
JoAnne in Tucson

17) From: Robert Gulley
Les
Thanks for another useful post. While I don't yet have a Behmor, I 
will be buying one down the road and I am saving everyone's useful 
tips/suggestions for future reference. Of course, yours are always great!
Robert
At 10:50 AM 12/20/2007, you wrote:
<Snip>
"I have measured out my life with coffee spoons."  ~T.S. Eliot  

18) From: Les
Jeff you are correct.  I am using P1, one pound of coffee, and I am
adjusting the roast time by using the plus button.  It seems like I am
hitting it two times for most of the roasts.  By letting it cool with the
door closedI am extending the roast into the cool cycle by a minute or two.
Pulling the chaff collector really gets a lot of heat out of the roaster and
the vacuuming technique really gets rid of the chaff that is still with the
beans as well as cooling the chamber quicker as well as the roast.  I feel
it is important to let the program do its normal cycle as the smoke
suppressor needs to have that cooling time to self-clean.  Like I said, I am
tweaking not modifying.  It seems to really increase the complexity of the
roast, and smooths out the taste.
Les
On Dec 20, 2007 11:10 AM, Jeff Anderson  wrote:
<Snip>

19) From: JoAnne Phillips
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This may well be the answer.  We roasted 1/4# on P1 on the Behmore  
(not my roaster, John Brown's) so I can't really try again.  I'm very  
fond of Kenyas - almost all of them and I was under the impression  
they were bright (acid).  However, it may well be that the IMV at C+  
is brighter (sour) than I like.  I like my Kenyas roasted to the end  
of the lull or even to one or two quiet cracks into 2nd.  I think I  
will try this with the IMV.  Something has to work as I ordered 5# of  
it because everyone seemed so enthusiastic about this particular  
bean.  Usually I order two pounds as this gives me enough to play  
with and find out what works well - then if I like it I order 5#.   
This works well for me unless SM sells out while I'm playing.  ; 
(    Thanks to everyone for all the advise.  I will be roasting this  
next time on a FR8 as I can't hear the cracks in my iRoast.  We shall  
see how that works out -- I'll let you know if a darker roast works  
better for me.
JoAnne in Tucson
On Dec 20, 2007, at 4:04 AM, Bryan Wray wrote:
Well, IMV being my bean of choice right now, and Behmor being my  
roaster, hopefully I (and we...!) can help you come to a conclusion,  
but the first thing that jumps to my mind is that perhaps you are  
confusing acidity with sour.  I don't mean for this to be insulting  
at all, I'm pretty new to the list, only about 3 months or so, so if  
your palette is well experienced enough to know the difference (which  
by your posts it seems to be), then don't take any offense or  
anything, that's just what comes to mind first.  IMV is a pretty  
bright coffee anyway and I know many of the customers that I offer it  
up to think that is is very "sour," but after I explain the  
difference between acidity and sour, they normally say, "Oh, well  
then I guess it just has high acidity."  Maybe this is true in your  
case, but maybe not.
Other than that, I would say try using a gentler profile...  You said  
you used P1, which I don't really recommend for IMV, but other than  
that I don't know what your settings were.  Here's what I use when I  
am roasting for french press:
113g (1/4lb) on 1/4 setting, P2, 9:30 to start adding 30 seconds  
after the roast has started.  First crack normally comes 8:00 minutes  
or so into the roast.  I have stopped the roast manually with 15-10  
seconds left on the timer, but normally it finishes out automatically  
just fine and it comes out to a nice full city, which is where I like  
this coffee a little more.
When roasting for espresso:
113g (1/4lb) on 1/2 setting, P4, time to start 12:30.  First crack is  
normally around 9:15-9:30, second crack around 11:00-11:45.  I let it  
roast in second for 8-15 seconds, then hit cool.  This brings out a  
nice full city/full city+ roast and makes for a great SO shot.
HTH
-Bry
Bryan Wray
NaDean's Coffee Place/
Dino's Coffee Lounge
Kalamazoo, MI
"It is my hope that people realize that coffee is more than just a  
caffeine delivery service, it can be a culinary art"- Chris Owens.
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo!  
Search.
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	charsetO-8859-1
This may well be the answer.  We roasted 1/4# on P1 on the =
Behmore (not my roaster, John Brown's) so I can't really try again.  I'm=
 very fond of Kenyas - almost all of them and I was under the impression =
they were bright (acid).  However, it may well be that the IMV at C+ =
is brighter (sour) than I like.  I like my Kenyas roasted to the end =
of the lull or even to one or two quiet cracks into 2nd.  I think I =
will try this with the IMV.  Something has to work as I ordered 5# of =
it because everyone seemed so enthusiastic about this particular bean. =
 Usually I order two pounds as this gives me enough to play with and =
find out what works well - then if I like it I order 5#.  This works =
well for me unless SM sells out while I'm playing.  ;(    Thanks =
to everyone for all the advise.  I will be roasting this next time on =
a FR8 as I can't hear the cracks in my iRoast.  We shall see how that =
works out -- I'll let you know if a darker roast works better for =
me.
JoAnne = in Tucson
On Dec 20, 2007, = at 4:04 AM, Bryan Wray wrote:
Well, IMV being my bean of choice = right now, and Behmor being my roaster, hopefully I (and we...!) can = help you come to a conclusion, but the first thing that jumps to my mind = is that perhaps you are confusing acidity with sour.  I don't mean for = this to be insulting at all, I'm pretty new to the list, only about 3 = months or so, so if your palette is well experienced enough to know the = difference (which by your posts it seems to be), then don't take any = offense or anything, that's just what comes to mind first.  IMV is a = pretty bright coffee anyway and I know many of the customers that I = offer it up to think that is is very "sour," but after I explain the = difference between acidity and sour, they normally say, "Oh, well then I = guess it just has high acidity."  Maybe this is true in your case, but = maybe not. Other than that, I would say try using a gentler = profile...  You said you used P1, which I don't really recommend for = IMV, but other than that I don't know what your settings were.  Here's = what I use when I am roasting for french press: 113g (1/4lb) on 1/4 = setting, P2, 9:30 to start adding 30 seconds after the roast has = started.  First crack normally comes 8:00 minutes or so into the = roast.  I have stopped the roast manually with 15-10 seconds left on = the timer, but normally it finishes out automatically just fine and it = comes out to a nice full city, which is where I like this coffee a = little more. When roasting for espresso: 113g (1/4lb) on 1/2 = setting, P4, time to start 12:30.  First crack is normally around = 9:15-9:30, second crack around 11:00-11:45.  I let it roast in second = for 8-15 seconds, then hit cool.  This brings out a nice full = city/full city+ roast and makes for a great SO = shot. HTH -Bry Bryan Wray NaDean's Coffee = Place/ Dino's Coffee Lounge Kalamazoo, MI "It is my hope = that people realize that coffee is more than just a caffeine delivery = service, it can be a culinary art"- Chris Owens.
Looking for last = minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! = Search. = --Apple-Mail-18-849572444--

20) From: Bob Hazen
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I just finished roasting a half-pound of Kenya in my Behmor and it was =
sour!  Perhaps you could call it "tart."  Like sucking on a lemon.  It =
was unpleasant to say the least and got more so as the cup cooled.  I =
would have suspected my technique, or my settings on the roaster.  =
However, many moons ago I bought some of Tom's roasted coffee.  It also =
was a Kenya.  And it was tart too!  Not for a minute did I think Tom's =
technique was lacking, but rather the Kenya just wasn't to my liking.  I =
did find that the tartness became less "in your face" after a week of =
rest.  Although, I haven't tasted the IMV, I'm wondering if that's just =
the character of the coffee.
I prefer heavier, low-acid coffees, but other so-called acidic coffees =
haven't been unpleasant, just absent of the body I like.  The Kenya, on =
both ocasions, reminded me of canned grapfruit juice.  Blecchh...
Just my 20m$.
Bob

21) From: John Brown
sure you can just!  need to get time for it.
JoAnne Phillips wrote:
<Snip>

22) From: Sandra Andina
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Always liked the acidity and snap of Caribbean and other Latin  
coffees, but was never a fan of Kenyan "winey" notes. (Also prefer  
Harar to Yirg for the same reason). For winey taste, I'll take wine.  
Everybody doesn't like something...
Sandy
On Dec 20, 2007, at 8:44 PM, Bob Hazen wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
--Apple-Mail-8-867496444
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Always liked the acidity and =
snap of Caribbean and other Latin coffees, but was never a fan of Kenyan =
"winey" notes. (Also prefer Harar to Yirg for the same reason). For =
winey taste, I'll take wine. Everybody doesn't like something...
Sandy On = Dec 20, 2007, at 8:44 PM, Bob Hazen wrote:
I = just finished roasting a half-pound of Kenya in my Behmor and it was = sour!  Perhaps you could call it "tart."  Like sucking on a = lemon.  It was unpleasant to say the least and got more so = as the cup cooled.  I would have suspected my technique, = or my settings on the roaster.  However, many moons ago I = bought some of Tom's roasted coffee.  It also was a = Kenya.  And it was tart too!  Not for a minute did I think = Tom's technique was lacking, but rather the Kenya just wasn't to my = liking.  I did find that the tartness became less "in your face" = after a week of rest.  Although, I haven't tasted the IMV, I'm = wondering if that's just the character of the = coffee. I = prefer heavier, low-acid coffees, but other so-called acidic coffees = haven't been unpleasant, just absent of the body I like.  The = Kenya, on both ocasions, reminded me of canned grapfruit juice.  = Blecchh... Just = my 20m$. Bob Sandy Andinawww.myspace.com/sandyandina = = --Apple-Mail-8-867496444--

23) From: Ken Mary
<Snip>
I know Les needs no instruction, but these comments are for everyone.
First crack is ENDOthermic in my experience. I have a fine wire thermocouple
in the beans in my non-perforated drum. If there is not enough continuous
heat input during first, I can easily get a zero or even a negative ramp in
mid-crack. Most of my wet process bean profiles enter first at 7 to 8C per
minute, fall to 2 to 4C for a short time, then quickly rise again to 6 to 7C
by the time city level is achieved.
If I would open my oven door, the temperature would quickly fall and ruin
the roast.
Your problem may be a fault with the Behmor itself or your choice of
profile. Your roaster (profile) is apparently far too hot as it enters first
crack.
<Snip>
"Dead" coffee is what I would get in my roaster by opening the door. If you
want 3 minutes of "quiet", then you must adjust the heat input to give you
the required ramp as you approach second. You want the temperature to be
always rising until you reach the desired roast level.
--

24) From: Les
1st off, I don't understand why you didn't hit first crack.  You should have
hit it between the 14 and 16 minute mark.  You don't open the door until 1
crack really gets rolling.  I agree with Ken's comment above, with the
Behmor on P1 you do enter 1st crack at too high a heat, that is why I try to
slow it down.  My coffee isn't flat at all.  I am drinking the COE from El
Salvador as I type and it is stunning.
Les
PS Jeff you can always double roast a too light roast.  It isn't perfect but
you don't have to toss it like a 3rd crack roast.
On 12/21/07, Jeff Anderson  wrote:
<Snip>

25) From: miKe mcKoffee
What is your voltage under load?
	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Jeff Anderson
	Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 7:34 AM
	To: homeroast
	Subject: Re: +sour coffee
	
	Les...
	
	I just tried to do this. 1 pound, P1, B, and all the time I could
add with the + sign. The roast never hit first crack. I was very careful
about the settings, since this was the first time I've tried this technique.
	
	I've ruined a pound of IMV. I'm going to email Joe. I'll let you
know what I find out. In the meantime, if you have any idea what's going on,
I'm all ears.
	
	Jeff
	
	Les wrote: 
		Jeff you are correct.  I am using P1, one pound of coffee,
and I am adjusting the roast time by using the plus button.  It seems like I
am hitting it two times for most of the roasts.  By letting it cool with the
door closedI am extending the roast into the cool cycle by a minute or two.
Pulling the chaff collector really gets a lot of heat out of the roaster and
the vacuuming technique really gets rid of the chaff that is still with the
beans as well as cooling the chamber quicker as well as the roast.  I feel
it is important to let the program do its normal cycle as the smoke
suppressor needs to have that cooling time to self-clean.  Like I said, I am
tweaking not modifying.  It seems to really increase the complexity of the
roast, and smooths out the taste. 
		 
		Les
		
		On Dec 20, 2007 11:10 AM, Jeff Anderson
 wrote:
		
			Les...
			
			Thanks for the detailed information. I'm anxious to
try it. If you could clarify a few things for me before I do, I'd sure
appreciate it.
			
			1) Do you use P1? 
			2) (A), (B), (C), (D)?
			2) Do you add or subtract any time with the (+/-)?
If so, do you do it before or after the roast starts?
			3) Please confirm or correct the following. I'm
rewording what you said to simplify it for me: "...Wait until the first
crack is going well, then open the door and leave it open for 45 seconds to
a minute. Then close the door and continue the roast for a minute and a
half. Then hit the cool button, etc...." Is that right:? 
			
			Thanks, 
			
			Jeff 
			Les wrote: 
				First off now that I have about 30 roasts on
the Behmor under my belt, I have to say it really is an excellent 1/2 pound
roaster, but you are pushing the limits roasting a pound.  I picked up on
what Oaxaca Charlie said awhile back and I have been cheating or maybe
better to say tweaking my roasts.  One thing the Behmor has taught me is
that 1st crack is exothermic.  When 1st crack really gets going the chamber
heats up enough to shut down the heating elements.  To get rid of the sour
in the IMV, I have been opening the door when 1st crack is going well for 45
seconds to a minute to cool the roast down and slow first crack down.  Yes I
get smoke, but I roast in the garage.  I can then close the door and get a
good "dead" spot of about a minute and a half before stopping the roast.  I
hit the cool button, let it cool for a minute, this gives me about  2.5 to 3
minutes of roasting after 1st crack without going into second.  I then open
the door and use a hot glove and take out the chaff screen.  It is a big
heat sink and retains too much heat to get the beans to cool as fast as I
like.  I then assist the Behmor's cooling by using my Shop vac to suck hot
air out of the chamber with the door down.  This removes chaff and heat at
the same time.  I do this for about 5 minutes.  It really cools things down.
I then close the Behmor door and let the programed cooling cycle finish.  I
am getting a much better brew using this method.  I have not had good roasts
using anything but P1 with a pound of coffee.   The programs do much better
with a half pound.  I hope this helps.  I would say you have a sour roast
because it is under roasted.  I have a couple of more tweaking ideas to try
and will report on them in the future.  Tweaking is not the same as
modifying the roaster.  I am not going there.  Joe has done a great job with
the limitations he imposed on himself (electric; 120 volts; a price under
$300.00; able to roast a pound). 
				 
				Les 
				
				On 12/20/07, Lynne 
wrote: 
					I'll admit to it! 
					
					What I do to save a roast that turns
sour (for whatever reason - could be the java-gods might have it out for me
on that day...) is to re-roast. I put it back in a pan on the stove & heat
it just a bit (stirring constantly). 
					
					Jo-Anne, I did a roast some months
past. It was beautiful - think it was a Gesha. I was ever so careful with
this roast, and it turned out beautiful. In fact, I'd say it was the most
beautiful looking bean I'd roasted since I started. 
					
					When it came time to taste -
blech!!!!!! UGH!!! It was the worst. 
					
					Think that one wasn't even
salvageable with re-roasting - it was so sad. 
					
					I can't help w/the Behmore, since I
don't have one - but the moral of the story is: you can't tell by looking.
My weirdest looking roasts are sometimes the best tasting! (and also, this
is continuous learning process...) 
					
					Lynne 
					
					Ross wrote:
					
					 As for trying to salvage a batch of
underroasted 
					beans, well-- I have heard of
putting them on a cookie sheet under the 
					broiler, or just running them
through again, but I would never admit to it!
					
					Ross
					also from Tucson

26) From: Bob Hazen
Ken,
You mention that you have installed a thermocouple in your drum.  Would you 
provide some details on how you achieved this?  Specifically, I assume it is 
fixed to the drum and rotates along with it.  How do you connect it to the 
meter?  Perhaps I'm assuming too much.  Any information would be appreciated 
as I would really like to instrument my Behmor.
Bob
<Snip>

27) From: Eddie Dove
Bob,
This is how one person did such in their Behmor:http://coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/homeroast/333876Eddie
-- 
Vita non est vivere sed valere vita est
Home Coffee Roasting Blog and Referencehttp://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/On Dec 21, 2007 10:04 AM, Bob Hazen  wrote:
<Snip>

28) From: Sandra Andina
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B might be too short--try C or even D....or 1/2 lb. at a time.
On Dec 21, 2007, at 9:46 AM, Les wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
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B might be too short--try C or =
even D....or 1/2 lb. at a time.
On Dec 21, 2007, at 9:46 =
AM, Les wrote:
1st off, I don't understand why you didn't hit first = crack.  You should have hit it between the 14 and 16 minute = mark.  You don't open the door until 1 crack really gets = rolling.  I agree with Ken's comment above, with the Behmor on P1 = you do enter 1st crack at too high a heat, that is why I try to slow it = down.  My coffee isn't flat at all.  I am drinking the COE = from El Salvador as I type and it is stunning.   = Les PS Jeff you can always double roast a too light = roast.  It isn't perfect but you don't have to toss it like a 3rd = crack roast.   On = 12/21/07, Jeff Anderson <jeff221> = wrote: Les... I just tried to do = this. 1 pound, P1, B, and all the time I could add with the + sign. The = roast never hit first crack. I was very careful about the settings, = since this was the first time I've tried this technique. I've = ruined a pound of IMV. I'm going to email Joe. I'll let you know what I = find out. In the meantime, if you have any idea what's going on, I'm all = ears. Jeff Les wrote: Jeff = you are correct.  I am using P1, one pound of coffee, and I am = adjusting the roast time by using the plus button.  It seems like I = am hitting it two times for most of the roasts.  By letting it cool = with the door closedI am extending the roast into the cool cycle by a = minute or two.  Pulling the chaff collector really gets a lot of = heat out of the roaster and the vacuuming technique really gets rid of = the chaff that is still with the beans as well as cooling the chamber = quicker as well as the roast.  I feel it is important to let the = program do its normal cycle as the smoke suppressor needs to have that = cooling time to self-clean.  Like I said, I am tweaking not = modifying.  It seems to really increase the complexity of the = roast, and smooths out the taste.   = Les   On Dec 20, 2007 = 11:10 AM, Jeff Anderson <jeff221> wrote: Les... Thanks for the detailed information. = I'm anxious to try it. If you could clarify a few things for me before I = do, I'd sure appreciate it. 1) Do you use P1? 2) (A), (B), = (C), (D)? 2) Do you add or subtract any time with the (+/-)? If so, = do you do it before or after the roast starts? 3) Please confirm or = correct the following. I'm rewording what you said to simplify it for = me: "...Wait until the first crack is going well, then open the door and = leave it open for 45 seconds to a minute. Then close the door and = continue the roast for a minute and a half. Then hit the cool button, = etc...." Is that right:? Thanks, Jeff = Les wrote: First off = now that I have about 30 roasts on the Behmor under my belt, I have to = say it really is an excellent 1/2 pound roaster, but you are pushing the = limits roasting a pound.  I picked up on what Oaxaca Charlie said = awhile back and I have been cheating or maybe better to say tweaking my = roasts.  One thing the Behmor has taught me is that 1st crack is = exothermic.  When 1st crack really gets going the chamber heats up = enough to shut down the heating elements.  To get rid of the sour = in the IMV, I have been opening the door when 1st crack is going well = for 45 seconds to a minute to cool the roast down and slow first crack = down.  Yes I get smoke, but I roast in the garage.  I can then = close the door and get a good "dead" spot of about a minute and a half = before stopping the roast.  I hit the cool button, let it cool for = a minute, this gives me about  2.5 to 3 minutes of = roasting after 1st crack without going into second.  I then open = the door and use a hot glove and take out the chaff screen.  It is = a big heat sink and retains too much heat to get the beans to cool = as fast as I like.  I then assist the Behmor's cooling by = using my Shop vac to suck hot air out of the chamber with the door = down.  This removes chaff and heat at the same time.  I do = this for about 5 minutes.  It really cools things down.  I = then close the Behmor door and let the programed cooling cycle = finish.  I am getting a much better brew using this = method.  I have not had good roasts using anything but P1 with = a pound of coffee.   The programs do much better with a = half pound.  I hope this helps.  I would say you have a sour = roast because it is under roasted.  I have a couple of more = tweaking ideas to try and will report on them in the future.  = Tweaking is not the same as modifying the roaster.  I am not going = there.  Joe has done a great job with the limitations he imposed on = himself (electric; 120 volts; a price under $300.00; able to roast = a pound).   Les    = On 12/20/07, Lynne <lynnebiz> wrote: I'll admit to it! = What I do to save a roast that turns sour (for whatever reason - = could be the java-gods might have it out for me on that day...) is to = re-roast. I put it back in a pan on the stove & heat it just a bit = (stirring constantly). Jo-Anne, I did a roast some months past. = It was beautiful - think it was a Gesha. I was ever so careful with this = roast, and it turned out beautiful. In fact, I'd say it was the most = beautiful looking bean I'd roasted since I started. When it came = time to taste - blech!!!!!! UGH!!! It was the worst. Think that = one wasn't even salvageable with re-roasting - it was so sad. I = can't help w/the Behmore, since I don't have one - but the moral of the = story is: you can't tell by looking. My weirdest looking roasts are = sometimes the best tasting! (and also, this is continuous learning = process...) Lynne Ross wrote:  As for trying to salvage a batch of =  underroasted beans, well-- I have heard of putting them on a = cookie sheet under the broiler, or just running them through again, = but I would never admit to it! <g> Ross also from Tucson =  = homeroast mailing list =http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change = your personal list settings (digest options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go = to = =http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change =">http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings== homeroast mailing list =http://lists.sweetmarias.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroastTo change = your personal list settings (digest options, vacations, unsvbscribes) go = to =http://sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html#personalsettings= Sandy Andinawww.myspace.com/sandyandina = --Apple-Mail-5-906579719--

29) From: Jeff Anderson
Update:
I roasted it a second time. It went through first crack and into second 
so quickly I ended up with a full Vienna roast. I'm drinking a cup now, 
and so far it beats *$$, even with no rest. My son is a fan of *$$, so 
he'll love it. I was planning to give him some coffee for Christmas 
anyway, so it's not a loss after all. I got a good laugh out of it too, 
and I can always use one of those! Dumb mistakes are good. They make 
life interesting, and keep us humble. :-)
Thanks again for telling me I could roast it a second time, Les. You 
averted a total loss.
Jeff
Les wrote:
<Snip>

30) From: C. Herlihy
Ken Mary  wrote: >From: Les
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
in the beans in my non-perforated drum. If there is not enough continuous
heat input during first, I can easily get a zero or even a negative ramp in
mid-crack. Most of my wet process bean profiles enter first at 7 to 8C per
minute, fall to 2 to 4C for a short time, then quickly rise again to 6 to 7C
by the time city level is achieved.
<Snip>
the roast.
  Ken---This is where so many roasters can't seem to agree. In my experience the beginning of first crack IS exothermic, although it's a short lived phenomemon, and after lowering the heat source (gas or electric) just as first crack starts or, ideally, just a moment before that happens, I'll raise the flame once first crack gets rolling to keep things from going backwards.  How much depends on the kind of roaster and batch size. Small batches lose heat quickly and the roast stalls easily without a quick (but carefull) ramp up of heat imput,  while large batches might only need slightest amount of push to finish at a slow upward ramp. A roast that roars through first crack and into second even when the heat's turned way down and roaster doors are opened  etc.certainly hit first crack too hot, and won't cup the way I'd like. Might even make for sour coffee. I'll guess that your ramp to first is pretty gentle if there's no exothermic bump at all that you can measure, and mine
 is a bit more aggressive. No right or wrong in that, just what works best for our tastes.
<Snip>
profile. Your roaster (profile) is apparently far too hot as it enters first
crack.
<Snip>
 minute, this gives me about 2.5 to 3 minutes of roasting after 1st crack
<Snip>
<Snip>
always rising until you reach the desired roast level.
  The Behmor P1 setting does hit first crack pretty hard, and opening the door a little doesn't cool the beans dramatically, as they're very hot, and close to the heating elements. It just  slows the rise in bean temp. Using other profiles first is gentle and opening the door may well deaden the roast, and even make reaching second crack (if desired) impossible. "Adjusting the heat imput to give the required ramp approaching second" is what Les is doing by letting some excess heat out just when there''s a bit too much with the Bemor P1 profile setting.
  Saludos,
 C
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.

31) From: Homeroaster
I hate to come across as the 'fire guy' in two threads, but I have to pass 
on a true story about vacuuming chaff and a shop vac fire.  My friend Barry 
Jarrett who roasts in the St. Louis area found smoke pouring from his shop 
vac after cleaning his roaster.  Evidently all it takes is a tiny little hot 
ember of chaff to quickly ignite the rest of the chaff.  Maybe emptying the 
bag after vacuuming would be a safeguard to keep a fire from breaking out 
hours later.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

32) From: Ken Mary
<Snip>
I suppose a lot of these events are roaster dependent. I sometimes see the
"Sivetz Bump" prior to first. But I interpret this as a return to normal
ramp from another endotherm in the development phase near 180 to 190C (356
to 374F) The appearance of the Sivetz Bump (and the development endotherm)
does not always portend excellent coffee. The Bump's ramp increase is
usually only 0.5 to 1.5C per minute. The Bump seems to appear mostly when
the development phase is longer than I prefer, and occurs in maybe one out
of ten roasts.
If not perfectly clear, my profiles are created by manual adjustment of the
heat input, which remains constant between the one or two switching points.
Any deviation in bean temperature away from the expected ramp is presumed to
be some real effect in the beans.
With some (overly wet?) coffees in my roaster, the mid-first endotherm is
like hitting a brick wall. Most dry process beans pass through first with no
endotherm.
I have been getting some different, sometimes better, flavors when "rushing
into first" at high heat and letting the "brick wall" slow the ramp just in
time for the lowered heat setting to take over the finish ramp. In these
profiles, there is a real risk of running into second before first is done,
not always a bad thing however.
--

33) From: Homeroaster
I think part of what looks exothermic due to the temp spike is not 
exothermic at all, but rather a combination of the beans temperature being 
close to the roaster temperature and not acting so much as a heatsink, and 
the temperature sensor being a bit more responsive due to the high humidity 
in the roaster environment due to all the moisture expelled as steam into 
the roast chamber.  The temperature of the escaping steam might also affect 
the roaster temperature.  Of course the exothermic effect has to begin at 
some point before combustion, but if it's a bell curve, I'd say it begins in 
a very small way just before second crack.  I seriously doubt the effect 
could even be measured without a very precise and controlled environment 
until the beans are almost on fire.
Everyone has an opinion, that's mine.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

34) From: C. Herlihy
Homeroaster  wrote: I think part of what looks exothermic due to the temp spike is not 
exothermic at all, but rather a combination of the beans temperature being 
close to the roaster temperature and not acting so much as a heatsink, and 
the temperature sensor being a bit more responsive due to the high humidity 
in the roaster environment due to all the moisture expelled as steam into 
the roast chamber.  The temperature of the escaping steam might also affect 
the roaster temperature.  Of course the exothermic effect has to begin at 
some point before combustion, but if it's a bell curve, I'd say it begins in 
a very small way just before second crack.  I seriously doubt the effect 
could even be measured without a very precise and controlled environment 
until the beans are almost on fire.
Everyone has an opinion, that's mine.
*********************
Ed Needham
  I like your ideas on this, Ed. They seem plausible to me. It would be interesting if Tom would chip in here, but IIRC he tends to sit these ones out.
 Saludos,
 Charlie

35) From: Justin Marquez
I kind of agree with you. I have suspected that what many take for
"exothermic" is perhaps "suddenly less endothermic" and with a constant heat
input, the temperature then climbs rapidly. My suspicion is that just before
that happens, a significant amount of the moisture is vaporized and when
that is gone, less heat is beaing absorbed to make the steam that caused
first crack.
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (CYPRESS, TX)
On Dec 22, 2007 4:20 PM, Homeroaster  wrote:
<Snip>


HomeRoast Digest