HomeRoast Digest


Topic: substitute for the rest period (24 msgs / 855 lines)
1) From: Taso Lyristis
Hi all,
Here's a question I've often wondered and finally remembered to ask about...
If the beans have not had proper time to rest yet, what if you grind, then
wait a few minutes, before brewing?  The idea being that the CO2 will leave
the grounds faster than they leave the whole beans.  It seems like a few
minutes rest after grinding may be similar to resting the whole beans a few
days.
Has anyone else ever wondered or experimented with this?  Even if somebody
can debunk this idea, it will finally put it to rest in my mind.

2) From: Larry Johnson
I know nothing, but that never stopped me before:
I think that there must be more complex things going on during the resting
period than just the outgassing of the CO2. CO2 by itself wouldn't account
for the flavor/aroma differences that I've noticed in rested vs. non-rested
beans. And the changes continue after the outgassing is basically over. It
is possible that the CO2 "scrubs" other flavor/aroma components out as it
leaves the bean, but I've had beans that changed character over the course
of almost 2 weeks, and I don't mean they were staling. I had a Harar Horse
that didn't develop the blueberry notes until 10 days after roast. The
espresso gurus (I'm not one) seem to agree that 5 days of rest is optimal
for most beans intended for espresso. Espresso is a pretty fine grind; I
would think any trapped CO2 would get out almost immediately after grinding.
If CO2 was all there was to it, then I don't think it would need 5 days for
the flavors to develop.
I could be wrong (but I don't think so). ;-)
Maybe someone who knows the science can chime in.
On 12/28/07, Taso Lyristis  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Larry J

3) From: Barry Luterman
I think resting the beans is not only for the CO 2 to escape but also for
the oils and sugars that were trapped in the cellulose fibers to permeate
the bean.
On Dec 28, 2007 9:49 AM, Taso Lyristis  wrote:
<Snip>

4) From: Andy Thomas
If I remember correctly, Tom once mentioned that he sometimes roasts and grinds beans the night before a morning cupping session, so they outgas faster. Does anyone else remember that? Sometimes I remember things that didn't actually happen. ;-)
----- Original Message ----
From: Taso Lyristis 
To: homeroast
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 11:49:07 AM
Subject: +substitute for the rest period
Hi all, 
Here's a question I've often wondered and finally remembered to ask about...
If the beans have not had proper time to rest yet, what if you grind, then wait a few minutes, before brewing?  The idea being that the CO2 will leave the grounds faster than they leave the whole beans.  It seems like a few minutes rest after grinding may be similar to resting the whole beans a few days.
Has anyone else ever wondered or experimented with this?  Even if somebody can debunk this idea, it will finally put it to rest in my mind.
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

5) From: Robert Yoder
Great Question!  Thanks for bring it up!
 
Happy Holidays to all,
 
robert
From: tasito: homeroast: +substitu=
te for the rest periodDate: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 11:49:07 -0800Hi all, Here's a=
 question I've often wondered and finally remembered to ask about...If the =
beans have not had proper time to rest yet, what if you grind, then wait a =
few minutes, before brewing?  The idea being that the CO2 will leave the gr=
ounds faster than they leave the whole beans.  It seems like a few minutes =
rest after grinding may be similar to resting the whole beans a few days. H=
as anyone else ever wondered or experimented with this?  Even if somebody c=
an debunk this idea, it will finally put it to rest in my mind.
The best games are on Xbox 360.  Click here for a special offer on an Xbox =
360 Console.http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/wheretobuy/=

6) From: Robert Joslin
1.  If the object of the exercise is to get rid of CO2, then your
assumption is correct.  The ground coffee SHOULD degas faster than the whole
bean...greater surface area for diffusion.
2. This topic of rest has always been an interesting one.  To me most
coffees taste good even when brewed on the day of roasting and especially,
it seems,if brewed in a Chemex brewer.  A few coffees do NOT taste as
palatable if brewed when freshly roasted....especially some of the Africans,
although I always assumed this was just an oddity of MY taste.  I just
finished three cups of Guat. Antigua Finca Retana yellow bourbon which was
roasted about 3:30 this PM (the smell of this coffee is just
incredible...molasses, fruit, nutty).  I've been working on a 10lb bag of
this coffee for some time and I know that over the next week it will (at
least to this nose and tongue) get better and better.  At the other extreme,
the IMV that I roasted 11 days ago was sampled again at lunch today and it
seems to be just past peaking with wonderful, fruity aromas and winey
taste.   Its a great mystery which stirs my wonder but does not move me to
explore too deeply.  I'm content to be an
observer.
Happy Roasting
Josh
On Dec 28, 2007 7:44 PM, Andy Thomas  wrote:
<Snip>

7) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Don't recall Tom saying that, which doesn't mean he did or didn't say it.
 
Degassing and giving off CO2 is just part of "resting". Flavors more often
than not develop greater complexity over time, sometimes a week or more.
Which isn't to say grinding fresh roasted and then letting the grinds sit
will or will not more rapidly develop complexity if at all but just release
CO2 faster. In truth not an experiment I have time or inclination to
perform.
 
But what does this discussion of speed resting coffee have to do with this
Global Warming List anyway?
 
Kona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
www.mcKonaKoffee.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/ 
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Andy Thomas
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 5:45 PM
To: homeroast
Subject: Re: +substitute for the rest period
If I remember correctly, Tom once mentioned that he sometimes roasts and
grinds beans the night before a morning cupping session, so they outgas
faster. Does anyone else remember that? Sometimes I remember things that
didn't actually happen. ;-)
----- Original Message ----
From: Taso Lyristis 
To: homeroast
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 11:49:07 AM
Subject: +substitute for the rest period
Hi all, 
Here's a question I've often wondered and finally remembered to ask about...
If the beans have not had proper time to rest yet, what if you grind, then
wait a few minutes, before brewing?  The idea being that the CO2 will leave
the grounds faster than they leave the whole beans.  It seems like a few
minutes rest after grinding may be similar to resting the whole beans a few
days. 
Has anyone else ever wondered or experimented with this?  Even if somebody
can debunk this idea, it will finally put it to rest in my mind.  
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find
 them fast with Yahoo! Search.

8) From: miKe mcKoffee
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Five days rest is minimal but definitely not necessarily optimal for
espresso:-)
 
Kona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
www.mcKonaKoffee.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/ 
From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Larry Johnson
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 12:36 PM
I know nothing, but that never stopped me before:
 
I think that there must be more complex things going on during the resting
period than just the outgassing of the CO2. CO2 by itself wouldn't account
for the flavor/aroma differences that I've noticed in rested vs. non-rested
beans. And the changes continue after the outgassing is basically over. It
is possible that the CO2 "scrubs" other flavor/aroma components out as it
leaves the bean, but I've had beans that changed character over the course
of almost 2 weeks, and I don't mean they were staling. I had a Harar Horse
that didn't develop the blueberry notes until 10 days after roast. The
espresso gurus (I'm not one) seem to agree that 5 days of rest is optimal
for most beans intended for espresso. Espresso is a pretty fine grind; I
would think any trapped CO2 would get out almost immediately after grinding.
If CO2 was all there was to it, then I don't think it would need 5 days for
the flavors to develop. 
 
I could be wrong (but I don't think so). ;-)
 
Maybe someone who knows the science can chime in.

9) From: Barry Luterman
No this one is more related to knives
On Dec 28, 2007 6:53 PM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>

10) From: John Despres
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
HA!
Barry Luterman wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
John A C Despres
Hug your kids
616.437.9182http://www.sceneitallproductions.com

11) From: RK
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Five days rest is minimal but definitely not necessarily optimal for =
espresso:-)
If it is 5 days min. for espresso and BTW I agree to 5 to 7 days rest =
for espresso. The question is then how long after that do you consider =
it really good and when does it start to decline. I imagine that running =
a business like you do would be difficult to keep it just right and not =
throw it away when it goes past the last day of decline going from =
great, to good, to acceptable, to bad.
How do you handle that Mike. 
RK

12) From: kevin creason
On Dec 29, 2007 7:25 AM, RK  wrote:
<Snip>
Yes, Mike, and all other Cafe owners-- how do you handle that? Inquiring
minds are dieing to know!
-- 
-Kevin
Admit your errors before someone else exaggerates them. - Andrew V. Mason
aych tee tee pee colon slash slash texascreasons dot homedns dot org

13) From: Michael Wascher
For any bean, I prefer a longer rest for espresso, at least a week, close to
2 weeks better. So sometimes I just chenge my brew method.
On Dec 31, 2007 11:42 AM, kevin creason  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"About the time we think we can make ends meet, somebody moves the ends."
--Herbert Hoover

14) From: Sandra Andina
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I have found espresso to be unbrewable till at least 2 days post- 
roast, with sweet-spot beginning on day 3 or 4, with decline beginning  
on day 7-8 and definitely noticeable (paling, thinner crema) by day  
10, with day 14 being the switchover to pourover/press pot/Aeropress  
duty.
On Dec 31, 2007, at 1:53 PM, Michael Wascher wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
--Apple-Mail-29--362791211
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	charset-ASCII
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I have found espresso to be =
unbrewable till at least 2 days post-roast, with sweet-spot beginning on =
day 3 or 4, with decline beginning on day 7-8 and definitely noticeable =
(paling, thinner crema) by day 10, with day 14 being the switchover to =
pourover/press pot/Aeropress duty.
On Dec 31, 2007, at 1:53 =
PM, Michael Wascher wrote:
For any = bean, I prefer a longer rest for espresso, at least a week, close to 2 = weeks better. So sometimes I just chenge my brew method. On Dec 31, 2007 11:42 AM, kevin creason < ckevinj> = wrote: On Dec = 29, 2007 7:25 AM, RK < coffeeman> = wrote: Five days rest is minimal but definitely not necessarily = optimal for espresso:-)   The question is = then how long after that do you consider it really good and when does it = start to decline. I imagine that running a business like you do would be = difficult to keep it just right and not throw it away when it goes past = the last day of decline going from great, to good, to acceptable, to = bad. How do you handle = that Mike. RK Yes, = Mike, and all other Cafe owners-- how do you handle that? Inquiring = minds are dieing to know!
-- -Kevin Admit your errors before someone else = exaggerates them. - Andrew V. Mason aych tee tee pee colon slash = slash texascreasons dot homedns dot org =
-- "About the = time we think we can make ends meet, somebody moves the ends." --Herbert = Hoover Sandy Andinawww.myspace.com/sandyandina = --Apple-Mail-29--362791211--

15) From: raymanowen
"...espresso to be un[drink]able till at least 2 days post-roast... with day
14 being the [Drop Dead] switchover to pourover/press pot/Aeropress duty."
A.- How do you store the beans?
B.- What does this say about the subsequent pourover/press pot/Aeropress
brews?
I found about 50g in a Mason jar at the back of the pantry. Lot 30 + Sumatra
Mandailing blend 1:1. That's my only blend, so far. Maybe I'll add to it one
day, after I plumb the limits of grinding and brewing variations.
The tag said "21 days old," but I didn't grind and brew the tag... A couple
of doubles, ground at 22 instead of 20 and packed a little tighter, didn't
know from old. Maybe the immediate task of shoveling walks and driveway
aprons at 5 homes helped too.
Mayhaps the crema dissipated quickly. The wire handled Assam? cup was I
guess the disappearing act was due to my slurping and savoring-
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
To err is the step before having to try it again.
On Dec 31, 2007 2:07 PM, Sandra Andina < sandraandina> wrote:
<Snip>

16) From: Sandra Andina
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I store my espresso beans in a Glad Ware container, emptying it within  
a week--I roast or buy no more than a lb. at a time.  The other brew  
methods are much more forgiving. Just found 2 AP scoops' worth of  
Panama La Gesha roasted 11/24--and it made a phenomenal cup as an AP.  
But it'd have been blah as an espresso.  My drip/press beans usually  
get stored in valve bags which in turn are in crocks. They seem to  
stay pretty fresh. Depends on how much my family drinks and whether  
they make small or large pots, too.
On Dec 31, 2007, at 8:53 PM, raymanowen wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
--Apple-Mail-35--341704315
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I store my espresso beans in a =
Glad Ware container, emptying it within a week--I roast or buy no more =
than a lb. at a time.  The other brew methods are much more =
forgiving. Just found 2 AP scoops' worth of Panama La Gesha roasted =
11/24--and it made a phenomenal cup as an AP. But it'd have been blah as =
an espresso.  My drip/press beans usually get stored in valve bags =
which in turn are in crocks. They seem to stay pretty fresh. Depends on =
how much my family drinks and whether they make small or large pots, =
too.
On Dec 31, 2007, at 8:53 PM, raymanowen =
wrote:
"...espresso to be un[drink]able till at least 2 days = post-roast... with day 14 being the [Drop Dead] switchover to = pourover/press pot/Aeropress duty." A.- How do you store the = beans? B.- What does this say about the subsequent pourover/press = pot/Aeropress brews? I found about 50g in a Mason jar at the back = of the pantry. Lot 30 + Sumatra Mandailing blend 1:1. That's my only = blend, so far. Maybe I'll add to it one day, after I plumb the limits of = grinding and brewing variations. The tag said "21 days old," but = I didn't grind and brew the tag... A couple of doubles, ground at 22 = instead of 20 and packed a little tighter, didn't know from old. Maybe = the immediate task of shoveling walks and driveway aprons at 5 homes = helped too. Mayhaps the crema dissipated quickly. The wire = handled Assam? cup was I guess the disappearing act was due to my = slurping and savoring- Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa! To = err is the step before having to try it again. On Dec 31, 2007 2:07 PM, Sandra Andina < sandraandina> wrote: I have found = espresso to be unbrewable till at least 2 days post-roast, with = sweet-spot beginning on day 3 or 4, with decline beginning on day 7-8 = and definitely noticeable (paling, thinner crema) by day 10, with day 14 = being the switchover to pourover/press pot/Aeropress duty. = On Dec 31, 2007, at 1:53 PM, Michael = Wascher wrote: For any bean, I prefer = a longer rest for espresso, at least a week, close to 2 weeks better. So = sometimes I just chenge my brew method. On Dec 31, 2007 11:42 AM, kevin creason < = ckevinj> wrote: On = Dec 29, 2007 7:25 AM, RK < coffeeman> = wrote: Five days rest is minimal = but definitely not necessarily optimal for espresso:-) =   The question is then how long after that do you consider it = really good and when does it start to decline. I imagine that running a = business like you do would be difficult to keep it just right and not = throw it away when it goes past the last day of decline going from = great, to good, to acceptable, to bad. How do you handle that Mike. = RK = Yes, Mike, and all other Cafe owners-- how do you = handle that? Inquiring minds are dieing to know!
-- -Kevin Admit your = errors before someone else exaggerates them. - Andrew V. Mason aych = tee tee pee colon slash slash texascreasons dot homedns dot org =
-- "About the time we = think we can make ends meet, somebody moves the ends." --Herbert = Hoover Sandy Andinawww.myspace.com/sandyandina Sandy Andinawww.myspace.com/sandyandina = --Apple-Mail-35--341704315--

17) From: raymanowen
"...a Glad Ware container..."
Is that the one advertised as being so cheap, you just pitch it and buy new
rather than cleaning?
On Dec 31, 2007 7:58 PM, Sandra Andina  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

18) From: Brett Mason
I store my beans in several different sized Mason jars, the ones with
the latch and seal.  Size selected based upon size of roast, with the
largest holding 2.5lb, while the smaller hold about 0.67lb...
My jars don't talk - they don't say anything at all...
Brett
On Dec 31, 2007 8:53 PM,   wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Bretthttp://homeroast.freeservers.com

19) From: raymanowen
?? "The wire handled Assam? cup was I guess the disappearing act was due to
my slurping and savoring-" ??
I've been Filched! My neat little cup runneth off!  Now, where'd I leave it?
Grrr- ro
On Dec 31, 2007 7:53 PM,  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976

20) From: rhazen
Brett,
Aren't >all< of your jars Mason jars?  (bah-booom....)
Sorry, Ray's comment about dying IR2 owners spawned the pun process in my 
gray matter....  I can't help myself.
Happy New Year Everybody!
Bob

21) From: Sean Cary
<Snip>
They do Brett...just not when you are around.
Sean
On Jan 1, 2008 6:15 AM, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Sean M. Cary
Major USMC
Tempus Fugit, Memento Mori

22) From: Sandra Andina
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	charset-ASCII;
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Yup, but I clean it anyway.
On Dec 31, 2007, at 9:11 PM, raymanowen wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
--Apple-Mail-38--320852130
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yup, but I clean it =
anyway.
On Dec 31, 2007, at 9:11 PM, raymanowen =
wrote:
"...a Glad Ware container..." Is that the one = advertised as being so cheap, you just pitch it and buy new rather than = cleaning? On Dec 31, 2007 7:58 PM, = Sandra Andina < = sandraandina> wrote: I store my espresso beans in = a Glad Ware container, emptying it within a week--I roast or buy no more = than a lb. at a time.  The other brew methods are much more = forgiving. Just found 2 AP scoops' worth of Panama La Gesha roasted = 11/24--and it made a phenomenal cup as an AP. But it'd have been blah as = an espresso.  My drip/press beans usually get stored in valve bags = which in turn are in crocks. They seem to stay pretty fresh. Depends on = how much my family drinks and whether they make small or large pots, = too. On Dec 31, = 2007, at 8:53 PM, raymanowen wrote: "...espresso to be un[drink]able till at least 2 days = post-roast... with day 14 being the [Drop Dead] switchover to = pourover/press pot/Aeropress duty." A.- How do you store the = beans? B.- What does this say about the subsequent pourover/press = pot/Aeropress brews? I found about 50g in a Mason jar at the back = of the pantry. Lot 30 + Sumatra Mandailing blend 1:1. That's my only = blend, so far. Maybe I'll add to it one day, after I plumb the limits of = grinding and brewing variations. The tag said "21 days old," but = I didn't grind and brew the tag... A couple of doubles, ground at 22 = instead of 20 and packed a little tighter, didn't know from old. Maybe = the immediate task of shoveling walks and driveway aprons at 5 homes = helped too. Mayhaps the crema dissipated quickly. The wire = handled Assam? cup was I guess the disappearing act was due to my = slurping and savoring- Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa! To = err is the step before having to try it again. On Dec 31, 2007 2:07 PM, Sandra Andina < sandraandina> wrote: I have found = espresso to be unbrewable till at least 2 days post-roast, with = sweet-spot beginning on day 3 or 4, with decline beginning on day 7-8 = and definitely noticeable (paling, thinner crema) by day 10, with day 14 = being the switchover to pourover/press pot/Aeropress duty. = On Dec 31, 2007, at 1:53 PM, Michael = Wascher wrote: For any bean, I prefer = a longer rest for espresso, at least a week, close to 2 weeks better. So = sometimes I just chenge my brew method. On Dec 31, 2007 11:42 AM, kevin creason < = ckevinj> wrote: On = Dec 29, 2007 7:25 AM, RK < coffeeman> = wrote: Five days rest is minimal = but definitely not necessarily optimal for espresso:-) =   The question is then how long after that do you consider it = really good and when does it start to decline. I imagine that running a = business like you do would be difficult to keep it just right and not = throw it away when it goes past the last day of decline going from = great, to good, to acceptable, to bad. How do you handle that Mike. = RK = Yes, Mike, and all other Cafe owners-- how do you = handle that? Inquiring minds are dieing to know!
-- -Kevin Admit your = errors before someone else exaggerates them. - Andrew V. Mason aych = tee tee pee colon slash slash texascreasons dot homedns dot org =
-- "About the time we = think we can make ends meet, somebody moves the ends." --Herbert = Hoover Sandy Andinawww.myspace.com/sandyandina Sandy Andinawww.myspace.com/sandyandina
-- "When the theme hits the bass, I dance the = Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- = 1976 Sandy Andinawww.myspace.com/sandyandina = --Apple-Mail-38--320852130--

23) From: miKe mcKoffee
Delayed reply...
We've determined Ohana is ideal sealed valve bag opened 10 to 15 days rest
window. This does not necessarily mean a sealed bag opened at 10 days will
be good at 15 days, don't know! Of course doesn't happen. Decided not to use
5# bags but LOTS of 1# bags for this reason. Even if opened at the end of
the day it'll be gone by early next morning. While I have pulled test shots
bag opened out to 21 days starting to noticeably fade. Any "stock" that gets
too old goes into the freezer for future practice/training use.
At home, re-vac sealing in mason jar works well to maintain freshness during
peak window.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of RK
	Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 5:26 AM
	To: homeroast
	Subject: Re: +substitute for the rest period
	
	Five days rest is minimal but definitely not necessarily optimal for
espresso:-)
		 
	If it is 5 days min. for espresso and BTW I agree to 5 to 7 days
rest for espresso. The question is then how long after that do you consider
it really good and when does it start to decline. I imagine that running a
business like you do would be difficult to keep it just right and not throw
it away when it goes past the last day of decline going from great, to good,
to acceptable, to bad.
	How do you handle that Mike. 
	RK

24) From: Tom Ulmer
I'm not nearly as rigid in my methods but my observations find the peak
window for rest seems to be a moving target. Given there are many variables
determining taste, but using the same origin bean and general roast profile
I've noticed a shift in the window from one roasting session to another.


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