HomeRoast Digest


Topic: city/city+ roasting questions (10 msgs / 290 lines)
1) From: Aaron Boothe
I have been roasting on a Hottop B for several months now and have complete
about 50 roasts.  I, however, do not quite understand the principals of a
city roast.  I have read (and have tasted) that it is good, as a general
rule, to have at least 4 minutes between the time the first crack starts and
from when you eject the roast.  This has given me some trouble because it
seems that I cannot get the temperature to slow down enough to allow for a
city roast without stalling.
So, do city roasts have a shorter time after first crack begins?  Or is four
minutes a good rule and I just need more practice in better understanding
the beans?
Thanks for all of your help.
Aaron B.

2) From: Ron Feroni
I believe you've misunderstood what you've read.  City roast is ended at en=
d of 1'st crack.  What you are talking about is the time between 1st and 2n=
d.  Most roasters want around 4 minutes between start of 1st and start of 2=
nd(give or take a minute or two, depends on the roaster!)
From: ratbertadb: homeroast: city/=
city+ roasting questionsDate: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 10:44:41 -0600I have been roa=
sting on a Hottop B for several months now and have complete about 50 roast=
s.  I, however, do not quite understand the principals of a city roast.  I =
have read (and have tasted) that it is good, as a general rule, to have at =
least 4 minutes between the time the first crack starts and from when you e=
ject the roast.  This has given me some trouble because it seems that I can=
not get the temperature to slow down enough to allow for a city roast witho=
ut stalling.So, do city roasts have a shorter time after first crack begins=
?  Or is four minutes a good rule and I just need more practice in better u=
nderstanding the beans?Thanks for all of your help.Aaron B.
Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_0120=08=

3) From: miKe mcKoffee
You still want 4min or so start of 1st to EOR with a City roast. Environment
temp will actually be going down but not the roast itself as environment
temp and bean temp approach equalibrium and environment temp may even go
below bean mass temp at times. Whether the roast itself is actually stalling
rather than simply the slow needed bean ramp rate needed is almost
impossible to know unless monitoring bean mass temp. You'll usually want to
slow the ramp rate as you approach 1st not waiting until 1st begins. When
and how much depends on the response of the roaster in use. 
Don't have experience with the HT B so can't give specific how to tips.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/	From: homeroast-admin
[mailto:homeroast-admin] On Behalf Of Aaron Boothe
	Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 8:45 AM
	To: homeroast
	Subject: city/city+ roasting questions
	
	I have been roasting on a Hottop B for several months now and have
complete about 50 roasts.  I, however, do not quite understand the
principals of a city roast.  I have read (and have tasted) that it is good,
as a general rule, to have at least 4 minutes between the time the first
crack starts and from when you eject the roast.  This has given me some
trouble because it seems that I cannot get the temperature to slow down
enough to allow for a city roast without stalling.
	
	So, do city roasts have a shorter time after first crack begins?  Or
is four minutes a good rule and I just need more practice in better
understanding the beans?
	
	Thanks for all of your help.
	
	Aaron B.

4) From: Ken Mary
<Snip>
the beans?
Roast level is a complex function of both time and temperature. Personal
preference and brew method are important considerations. If you want a
bright coffee with a lot of impact, 4 minutes from start of first to the
same finishing bean temperature may ruin the cup, but 2 minutes may be just
right. Espresso drinkers (I am not one) may prefer 4 to 5 minutes to remove
unwanted brightness.
The profile from 121C or 250F to the initial pop of first is just as
important. During this phase, you need to provide enough time to develop
flavors and remove excess water. But too much time here will bake the beans.
Too much or too little water in the beans at first crack may produce off
flavors and unexpected bean temperatures.
Do not focus on one portion of the profile while ignoring others.
Experience will get you to your optimum profile in fewer test roasts.
--

5) From: Mejia, Carlos
Is there a rule-of-thumb for the min/max time for the range "from 121C
or 250F to the initial pop of first"... or is it way to different
depending on the bean?  And what is the taste characteristics of a baked
bean vs a roasted bean?

6) From: PJ
Ken
Ditto on the question that Carlos ask this something I had been wanting to 
ask for sometime and just never did get "a round tuit" them things are hard 
to find you know
PJ

7) From: Aaron Boothe
Thanks for all the feedback.  Mike especially: very helpful.  I never really
put together that even though the roast environment temp may stall, beans
will still be changing temp.  Makes perfect sense though.
A far as the changes from 250 to the end, I agree that that is super
important.  The altitude that the coffee is grown at plays a large role in
deciding the ramp rate.  the higher the altitude, the harder you can push
the beans.  I believe that the altitude relates to the moister content of
the beans.  If you haven't checked out Tom's newer site with pictures of a
roast, you should check it out.  very informative.
Thanks so much for all the help
Aaron B

8) From: Ken Mary
The first rule is "There are no rules".
In my experience, and in my equipment, 5 to 8 minutes seems right. I chose
the 250F limit since somewhere near that BEAN temperature, roast reactions
begin. At this low temperature you can make some "mistakes" and not harm the
coffee, since not a lot is happening. That also seems to be the point where
the heatup calms down to a near linear temperature ramp.
The upper limit of "the initial pop of first or 400F" means that the heat
setting for going through first crack must be already done. I use a
predetermined power (watts) to give me the desired post first crack ramp.
That set point in bean temperature is determined from trial roasts, and
normally occurs between 365 and 395. In the past few weeks, I have been
adjusting the profile so that the bean temperature shows the Sivetz Bump
that occurs before first crack. Very often, this is only a 1 to 2F rise
above the average 25F per minute. In my present thinking, this means that
the correct water content has been achieved. The appearance of the "Bump"
now coincides with my first crack turndown point. Please note that this is a
technical procedure, and in no way is there any proof yet that this yields
the best profile for me, let alone anyone else.
This should illustrate a thought pattern for other roasters, not a set of
rules. If you can, change your roast settings with the knowledge that this
"250F to first" is an important part of the profile.
For now I am ignoring the heatup time before 250F. Except for Brazils,
differences in this time have no effect on the cup. Most of the time, I use
a lower startup heat (and much simpler profile) for Brazils.
A "baked" bean is one-dimensional, lifeless. Depending on one's frame of
reference, it could mean totally flat or just missing the sweetspot. This
apparently happens when the bean is too dry entering first.
--
----------
<Snip>
<Snip>

9) From: Robert Joslin
Ken
     Interesting post.  At one time I graphed the time/temp data from roasts
and on many (not all) plots I noticed this brief blip but was unaware of its
significance.  Have to do a little reading on the "Sivitz Bump."   Thanks
Josh
On Feb 3, 2008 7:11 AM, Ken Mary  wrote:
<Snip>

10) From: Robert Yoder
Thanks for yet another highly-informed and informative post!
 
robert > Subject: Re: city/city+ roasting questions> From: kdmary> =
To: homeroast> Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 08:11:22 -0500> =
<Snip>
uipment, 5 to 8 minutes seems right. I chose> the 250F limit since somewher=
e near that BEAN temperature, roast reactions> begin. At this low temperatu=
re you can make some "mistakes" and not harm the> coffee, since not a lot i=
s happening. That also seems to be the point where> the heatup calms down t=
o a near linear temperature ramp.> > The upper limit of "the initial pop of=
 first or 400F" means that the heat> setting for going through first crack =
must be already done. I use a> predetermined power (watts) to give me the d=
esired post first crack ramp.> That set point in bean temperature is determ=
ined from trial roasts, and> normally occurs between 365 and 395. In the pa=
st few weeks, I have been> adjusting the profile so that the bean temperatu=
re shows the Sivetz Bump> that occurs before first crack. Very often, this =
is only a 1 to 2F rise> above the average 25F per minute. In my present thi=
nking, this means that> the correct water content has been achieved. The ap=
pearance of the "Bump"> now coincides with my first crack turndown point. P=
lease note that this is a> technical procedure, and in no way is there any =
proof yet that this yields> the best profile for me, let alone anyone else.=
<Snip>
of> rules. If you can, change your roast settings with the knowledge that t=
his> "250F to first" is an important part of the profile.> > For now I am i=
gnoring the heatup time before 250F. Except for Brazils,> differences in th=
is time have no effect on the cup. Most of the time, I use> a lower startup=
 heat (and much simpler profile) for Brazils.> > A "baked" bean is one-dime=
nsional, lifeless. Depending on one's frame of> reference, it could mean to=
tally flat or just missing the sweetspot. This> apparently happens when the=
 bean is too dry entering first.> --> > > ----------> >From: "Mejia, Carlos=
" > >To: > >Subjec=
t: RE: city/city+ roasting questions> >Date: Sat, Feb 2, 2008, 11:20 AM> >>=
 > > Is there a rule-of-thumb for the min/max time for the range "from 121C=
<Snip>
pending on the bean? And what is the taste characteristics of a baked> > be=
an vs a roasted bean?>> hom=
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