HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Technivorm Disappointment (23 msgs / 1048 lines)
1) From: Scott Bukofsky
Hi there, folks.  I recently picked up a Technivorm KBT-741 from our hosts.
Previous to that, my morning coffee was a pour-over cone filter.  After a
couple of weeks with the Technivorm, I find the coffee, for lack of a better
term, somewhat flat compared to what I am used to.  I have tried it with a
variety of beans and get the same results.  Needless to say, I am not too
happy given the price of this machine, but I am pretty sure it is the man,
not the machine.  I have been trying to narrow down the variables and could
use some advice.  Here are my thoughts:
(1) Perhaps I am not using enough coffee.  Since I don't brew full pots, I
have been using about 4 Technivorm scoops of beans for 0.75L of water (the
max capacity of the machine is 1.25L).  For my usual pour-over filter brews,
I use about 24g of beans for 10 oz of coffee.  I did all the conversions,
and this is where the 4 scoops comes from on the Technivorm.  Unfortunately,
the coffee tastes different in both cases.  Just increasing the amount of
coffee doesn't seem to do the trick, but I am still playing around.
(2) The Technivorm brew is actually the "real" coffee taste, and what I have
had before is not.  I think this is unlikely, but who knows?
Any other thoughts of what to play with?  I have been using Tom's techniques
from the tip sheet for what it is worth.  Maybe doing smaller than full pots
just doesn't work as well.
Thanks,
Scott
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2) From: Jon Rosen
Scott,
You might want to try the Technivorm with a Swissgold filter. I  
periodically alternate between the Swissgold filter and paper filters.  
There is a definite difference in taste between the two. I use a  
slightly finer grind when using paper filters. Aside from that, I use  
the SM-recommended portions.
Jon
On Feb 18, 2008, at 4:54 PM, Scott Bukofsky wrote:
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3) From: Michael Mccandless
I have settled on filling to the 7 1/2 cup mark (~28 OZ) & grind a level 1/3
cup beans (~28 grams).
Adding more grind goes a little flat until ~52 grams (Les) or 45 grams
(McKoffee).
The ratio seems to have its sweet spots.
McSparky
On Feb 18, 2008 2:54 PM, Scott Bukofsky  wrote:
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4) From: Bob Brashear
Jon Rosen wrote:
<Snip>
Scott,
I'll second Jon's recommendation. Switching to the Swiss Gold filter 
made a huge difference for me. Stayed with the SM portions.
Bob
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5) From: Scott Bukofsky
Well, I just measured, and I am using ~40g for "6 cups" on the Technivorm's
reservoir.  Not sure what that means, though....  What water volume are the
52/45g numbers referring to?
At some point I'll try a Swissgold, but I am still perplexed by the
differences between my manual pour over and the Technivorm, both using paper
filters.
-Scott
On Feb 18, 2008 5:18 PM, Michael Mccandless  wrote:
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6) From: BeanMeUp
Scott,
I hope I'm doing this "thread" thing correctly.
We have a Technivorm Moccamaster that also took us a while to figger  
dosing. I measure beans instead of grind because it is easier to use  
in the flow of our kitchen. After much trial and error, I have found  
the best ratio is one of the blue Specialty Coffee Association scoops  
(29.6 cc; 35 cents @ SM) of beans per "cup" on the Technivorm. We have  
a Capresso Infinity grinder that seems to fluff the grinds into a  
greater volume than just the beans, though I have not measured how  
much. Also, when brewing six or fewer "cups," I close the valve on the  
cone until it is nearly to the top of the SwissGold filter to let the  
coffee steep a bit, then let it drip the rest of the way with it only  
half-opened. No matter how large a brew, I never use the cone full-open.
The best thing about this is that it is very easy and, as far as I can  
tell, harmless to add some hot water to the cup if you have brewed it  
too strong.
Thank you all for your kind welcomes. I hope I'll be able to  
contribute in a fashion worthy of what you have already given to me.
Brianhttp://www.kuhens.comOn Feb 18, 2008, at 5:56 PM, homeroast-request 
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7) From: Michael Mccandless
Same 28 oz water.
Makes the right amount for the two of us to finish at proper temp.
By the time it cools in the carafe, it's about gone & a new pot is on the
way.
McSparky
On Feb 18, 2008 4:14 PM, Scott Bukofsky  wrote:
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8) From: Treshell
<Snip>
Even though its new I would clean it with Joe Glow or?????????? In coffee
more then anything else clean = better taste.  I had to clean my TV twice
before I got a good taste.  I do use gold filter and do check and make sure
the Temperature you are getting is correct.  I also grind a little finer
then for cone and a little more coffee.  That said most of the time I drink
espresso or Press pot, with the areo coming next.
Tres
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9) From: BeanMeUp
Scott,
For grins, I just weighed two blue scoops of some Sumatra I just  
roasted... 20 grams... it seems we are using HALF the coffee you are  
using... hmm...
I prefer a manual pour over the Technivorm, and I use a Swissgold  
filter there, too. I typically use about 3/4 blue scoop of beans per  
10/12 oz mug, though I only use this method when my wife is around to  
finish the cup.
Suddenly I'm doubting the quality of my posts... or desired coffee  
strength is as variable as anything else with this hobby...
Brianhttp://www.kuhens.comOn Feb 18, 2008, at 6:34 PM, homeroast-request 
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10) From: Brett Mason
If you hit reply, or send, you're doing the thread thing just fine - despite
what anybody tells about
email-netiquette-that-is-from-Ann-Landers-or-Miss-Manners-or-Bill-Gates-who-was-late-to-the-internet-anyway-or-anybody,
etc.
But, you're doing it just fine by their rules too.
I rock the boat sometimes just to get people off their stone pedestals -
it's good practice, and they might actually become a learner again....!
Brett
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11) From: Floyd Lozano
I lost my blue scoop forever ago.  I use about 55g of coffee for 6
cups of water, coarsely ground (+45 on Rocky).  I use Melitta filters
but have Filtropa on order.  I don't use my Swissgold filter - it does
add huge body but also adds a lot of sediment, and I'd rather not fuss
with the sediment.
-F
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12) From: b cook
Another consideration is that you might want to check the brew temperature
of the Technivorm as I've seen a couple of posts on CoffeeGeek in the fairly
recent past in which people have gotten Technivorms that did not heat up to
the ~200f brew temp that it should be.  You need to hold a thermoprobe right
under where the water distributes into the basket to get a good measurement.
I use 2 level tablepspoons of coffee per 7oz of water.  I have a 2tbsp
coffee scoop.
brad
On Feb 18, 2008 6:36 PM, Floyd Lozano  wrote:
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13) From: Sandra Andina
I use 5 scoops of coffee. I also preheat the thermal carafe, close the  
filter-cone's shutter until 2 c. of water have passed through the  
machine and I've stirred the grounds thoroughly, open the shutter  
halfway till only 2 c. water is left in the reservoir, at which time I  
let 'er rip. I cap the carafe immediately when the dripping has  
stopped.  It's a bit more hands-on than even manual pourover, but I  
get a very rich cup that way.
Sandy Andina
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
On Feb 18, 2008, at 4:18 PM, Michael Mccandless wrote:
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14) From: deerslammer
?I'm also disappointed with the tv brewer, i received one for xmas from the misses. for the price around $250 i expected more. i expected better coffee. the brewer works great and makes my coffee most mornings but i'de rather use my chemex or vac pot. the tv is easier to use and thats why it gets used as much as it does.
?? dave
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15) From: Floyd Lozano
Well, what you get for that $200 or whatever is a coffee maker you
will likely never have to replace if you take care of it.  I had a
Delonghi that cost $100 and failed after a year.  Other coffee makers
that just didn't get hot enough ($100 Bunn that I gave away, I think,
though I kept the $35 clearance thermal carafe version, unopened, in
case of dire emergency!)  Sure you can get the same results from a
manual pourover cone and probably better results from the methods you
mention below.  For me, the money was worth the 10 to 15 minutes I
save every morning, cause in the morning every minute is precious!  I
need to pick up a vac pot or chemex for the weekends though - I have
heard so many good things about those brewing methods, I owe it to
myself to try them!
-F
On Feb 19, 2008 8:03 AM,   wrote:
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16) From: Larry Johnson
I can't speak for the TV - don't own one. But I was disappointed by
the Presto Scandi that everyone spoke so highly of. I know not to
expect much from a $20 coffee maker, but supposedly its shortcomings
were in the area of longevity and features; its value was that it
brewed coffee at the appropriate temperature and made a good cuppa.
Try as I might, I never got that to happen. Even with the Swiss Gold
filter.
But for less than $40, I have a Yama vac-pot from SM and I love it. I
use it on weekends when I have time to spend on making and drinking a
pot. Best coffee I've ever brewed, and I've tried a lot of methods -
French press, manual pour-over, Melitta drip, Bunn drip, Presto Scandi
drip, Bialetti Moka pot, Aeropress, Swiss Gold one-cup, et al. The
Yama is tops at my house.
On 2/19/08, Floyd Lozano  wrote:
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17) From: Scott Bukofsky
Thanks to all for the advice.  Some thoughts for today:
I tested the water temperature at the spout: 200F, so that is fine
The amount of coffee thing is interesting....
   -   SCAA: 10g coffee to 6oz water = 1.67g/oz
   -   Me (pre-technivorm, using pour over): 24g/10oz = 2.4g/oz
   -   Tom (from tip-sheet, plus measured 10g/scoop) = 60g/40oz = 1.5g/oz
Based on this, it looks like I am used to a lot of coffee per unit of
water....
Today I used 45g for 24oz of water = 1.9g/oz.  I thought the coffee was
pretty good, but still a bit flat compared to what I am used to.
I'll keep playing around....
-Scott
On Feb 19, 2008 9:03 AM, Larry Johnson  wrote:
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18) From: Paul Helbert
We got our little #2 Melitta filter holder about ten years ago when my first
cousin gave us a grinder. Could not find the conical paper filters locally
so went with the ubiquitous basket filters which work wonderfully well
(never a broken one - just make it conform with a bit of hot water). We use
two coffee scoops fine grind (whirly-knife) to make two cups. I take the
first one black and Dad takes the second with honey and Carnation. Talk
about durability... we've burned up three or four tea pots on the stove but
that little plastic thing is still going strong.
Last year, after I got hooked on home roasting, I bought a Chemex from SM.
It's beautiful but the filters are so thick that too much of the flavor gets
removed from the coffee for my taste. I re-boxed it and it is awaiting the
marriage of dear friends who can use it with great ceremony when they have
company. (Assuming this thrice engaged buddy of mine actually goes through
with it this time).
Later, I scored an old Cona II table-top on eBay, then a Cona D which needed
a few parts. Got the parts from SM and learned to use it (upgraded to
conical burr grinder to eliminate fines). Ditto an old Cory. Haven't gone
for the Yama because of the cloth filter which I suppose would make a brew
with flavors between the glass rod filter machines and the paper filter. A
buddy has a Yama and I hope we can get together one Saturday morning over at
Lucas Roasting LLC in Broadway to do some side by side comparisons including
the French Press that Troy uses to cup all his roasts.
Any of the glass filter rod vacuum brewers will not disappoint you if you
are looking for richer, fuller coffee with truly unctuous mouth feel. For
paper filter coffee I'll stick with the pour over method for its simplicity
ease of cleaning and low parts count. Any paper or cloth filter is going to
remove some of the goodies from the coffee.
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19) From: Brett Mason
Change your grind...
Brett
On 2/19/08, Scott Bukofsky  wrote:
<Snip>
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20) From: Les
You have to keep the TV clean!  Mine wasn't doing so well and then I
realized I had skipped a routine cleaning.  It is amazing what a good flush
and soaking the basket in cafex will do.
Les
On 2/19/08, Brett Mason  wrote:
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21) From: Wes Tyler
Scott...I've had a TV for a year. My first impression was about like yours. A lot money and trouble for  no better coffee. The biggest improvement came with a coarser grind. I use a Rocky at 45. That idea came from Brett in his AP. I use 1.25g of coffee per oz of water. Preheat the SS pot, hold up the brew and stir it a couple of times, open brewer one notch when about full and let it go. I use paper filters because that's how my wife likes it. The gold filter gets better flavor  IMO, but a little more mud. Probably need to change Rocky's burrs for less fines. TV is now the best coffee maker I've owned. 
wes
----- Original Message ----
From: Brett Mason 
To: homeroast
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 12:28:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Technivorm Disappointment
Change 
your 
grind...
Brett
On 
2/19/08, 
Scott 
Bukofsky 
 
wrote:
<Snip>
Thanks 
to 
all 
for 
the 
advice.  
Some 
thoughts 
for 
today:
<Snip>
I 
tested 
the 
water 
temperature 
at 
the 
spout: 
200F, 
so 
that 
is 
fine
<Snip>
The 
amount 
of 
coffee 
thing 
is 
interesting....
<Snip>
 
-  
 
SCAA: 
10g 
coffee 
to 
6oz 
water 
= 
1.67g/oz
<Snip>
 
-  
 
Me 
(pre-technivorm, 
using 
pour 
over): 
24g/10oz 
= 
2.4g/oz
<Snip>
 
-  
 
Tom 
(from 
tip-sheet, 
plus 
measured 
10g/scoop) 
= 
60g/40oz 
= 
1.5g/oz
<Snip>
Based 
on 
this, 
it 
looks 
like 
I 
am 
used 
to 
a 
lot 
of 
coffee 
per 
unit 
of
<Snip>
water....
<Snip>
Today 
I 
used 
45g 
for 
24oz 
of 
water 
= 
1.9g/oz.  
I 
thought 
the 
coffee 
was
<Snip>
pretty 
good, 
but 
still 
a 
bit 
flat 
compared 
to 
what 
I 
am 
used 
to.
<Snip>
I'll 
keep 
playing 
around....
<Snip>
-Scott
<Snip>
On 
Feb 
19, 
2008 
9:03 
AM, 
Larry 
Johnson 
 
wrote:
<Snip>
I 
can't 
speak 
for 
the 
TV 
- 
don't 
own 
one. 
But 
I 
was 
disappointed 
by
<Snip>
the 
Presto 
Scandi 
that 
everyone 
spoke 
so 
highly 
of. 
I 
know 
not 
to
<Snip>
expect 
much 
from 
a 
$20 
coffee 
maker, 
but 
supposedly 
its 
shortcomings
<Snip>
were 
in 
the 
area 
of 
longevity 
and 
features; 
its 
value 
was 
that 
it
<Snip>
brewed 
coffee 
at 
the 
appropriate 
temperature 
and 
made 
a 
good 
cuppa.
<Snip>
Try 
as 
I 
might, 
I 
never 
got 
that 
to 
happen. 
Even 
with 
the 
Swiss 
Gold
<Snip>
filter.
<Snip>
But 
for 
less 
than 
$40, 
I 
have 
a 
Yama 
vac-pot 
from 
SM 
and 
I 
love 
it. 
I
<Snip>
use 
it 
on 
weekends 
when 
I 
have 
time 
to 
spend 
on 
making 
and 
drinking 
a
<Snip>
pot. 
Best 
coffee 
I've 
ever 
brewed, 
and 
I've 
tried 
a 
lot 
of 
methods 
-
<Snip>
French 
press, 
manual 
pour-over, 
Melitta 
drip, 
Bunn 
drip, 
Presto 
Scandi
<Snip>
drip, 
Bialetti 
Moka 
pot, 
Aeropress, 
Swiss 
Gold 
one-cup, 
et 
al. 
The
<Snip>
Yama 
is 
tops 
at 
my 
house.
<Snip>
On 
2/19/08, 
Floyd 
Lozano 
 
wrote:
<Snip>
Well, 
what 
you 
get 
for 
that 
$200 
or 
whatever 
is 
a 
coffee 
maker 
you
<Snip>
will 
likely 
never 
have 
to 
replace 
if 
you 
take 
care 
of 
it.  
I 
had 
a
<Snip>
Delonghi 
that 
cost 
$100 
and 
failed 
after 
a 
year.  
Other 
coffee 
makers
<Snip>
that 
just 
didn't 
get 
hot 
enough 
($100 
Bunn 
that 
I 
gave 
away, 
I 
think,
<Snip>
though 
I 
kept 
the 
$35 
clearance 
thermal 
carafe 
version, 
unopened, 
in
<Snip>
case 
of 
dire 
emergency!)  
Sure 
you 
can 
get 
the 
same 
results 
from 
a
<Snip>
manual 
pourover 
cone 
and 
probably 
better 
results 
from 
the 
methods 
you
<Snip>
mention 
below.  
For 
me, 
the 
money 
was 
worth 
the 
10 
to 
15 
minutes 
I
<Snip>
save 
every 
morning, 
cause 
in 
the 
morning 
every 
minute 
is 
precious!  
I
<Snip>
need 
to 
pick 
up 
a 
vac 
pot 
or 
chemex 
for 
the 
weekends 
though 
- 
I 
have
<Snip>
heard 
so 
many 
good 
things 
about 
those 
brewing 
methods, 
I 
owe 
it 
to
<Snip>
myself 
to 
try 
them!
<Snip>
-F
<Snip>
On 
Feb 
19, 
2008 
8:03 
AM,  
 
wrote:
<Snip>
?I'm 
also 
disappointed 
with 
the 
tv 
brewer, 
i 
received 
one 
for 
xmas
<Snip>
from 
the 
misses. 
for 
the 
price 
around 
$250 
i 
expected 
more. 
i 
expected
<Snip>
better 
coffee. 
the 
brewer 
works 
great 
and 
makes 
my 
coffee 
most 
mornings
<Snip>
but
<Snip>
i'de 
rather 
use 
my 
chemex 
or 
vac 
pot. 
the 
tv 
is 
easier 
to 
use 
and 
thats
<Snip>
why
<Snip>
it 
gets 
used 
as 
much 
as 
it 
does.
<Snip>
?? 
dave
<Snip>
<Snip>
More 
new 
features 
than 
ever.  
Check 
out 
the 
new 
AOL 
Mail 
! 
-
<Snip>http://webmail.aol.com<Snip>
<Snip>
Homeroast 
mailing 
list
<Snip>
Homeroast
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<Snip>
Homeroast 
mailing 
list
<Snip>
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--
<Snip>
Larry 
J
<Snip>
<Snip>
Homeroast 
mailing 
list
<Snip>
Homeroast
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<Snip>
Homeroast 
mailing 
list
<Snip>
Homeroast
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-- 
Cheers,
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22) From: Scott Bukofsky
Grind is indeed another variable.  I wouldn't have thought to go coarser,
though.... I am at about 25 on Rocky, though of course that means nothing.
45 is what I would use for a French Press....
We shall see,
Scott
On Feb 19, 2008 12:57 PM, Wes Tyler  wrote:
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23) From: BeanMeUp
Floyd,
I guess the sediment that passes through my Swissgold filters could be  
an issue... if I ever made it to the bottom of a cup.
My wife says that I am naturally caffeinated, and it is not wise to  
add more.
MANY THANKS to all of you for the kind welcomes and the helpful links.  
This is indeed a cozy place.
Brian
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