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Topic: Stretching for espresso (8 msgs / 284 lines)
1) From: Edward Bourgeois
When needing to stretch a roast after 1st c. to somewhat flatten the
brightness and acidity of a Central or African for espresso. How
should you change the profile before 1st? Shorter, longer, quicker or
slower ramp to first? Obviously you would need to slow it down during
or coming out of 1st to be able stretch towards 2nd. I want to keep
the roast on the light side to retain the fruited notes. I want to use
these in blends(with Brazilian, Sumatra, India) but hopefully be able
to use a slightly higher % of them.
Ed B.
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2) From: miKe mcKoffee
When using coffees targeted for espresso blending I usually don't slow the
drying, tanning or browning stages. (Of course slow or fast is relative to
what was used before!) For instance roasting WP Yirg' (Kochere) for Ohana
blend element both stretch start of 1st to end of roast and take it a bit
darker final degree than might for other brewing methods actually going to
first touch of 2nd, ~5:30 start of 1st to end of roast. While a lighter and
or shorter roast of the WP Yirg' works great as SO shot it takes a higher
shot temp. (Plus to a degree benefits from updosing and long tight ristretto
pull to accentuate sweetness over varietal character.) DP Yirg' (IMV)
doesn't need as much stretching or to go as dark, no 2nd for IMV. (Both used
in Ohana) Part of my roast technique and blend design is getting each blend
element to "sing" as an SO shot at the same shot temp. Have been thinking
about tesing longer and lighter but it's such a damn good shot blend now
have been hesitant to mess with it! (But will:-)
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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3) From: Joe Screnock
Edward Bourgeois wrote:
 > When needing to stretch a roast after 1st c. to somewhat flatten the
 > brightness and acidity of a Central or African for espresso. How
 > should you change the profile before 1st?
Since my other post (forwarded to the list by miKe) didn't get any 
bites, I'll hop on this thread.  Perhaps my other post was too 
overarching to get a concise reply.  :-)
Am I to understand that lengthening the time between First Crack (FC) 
and Second Crack (SC) will reduce the brightness and acidity of a roast? 
  Does it do anything else?  That is to say, if one were to stretch a 
non-bright (Sumatra) coffee, what would be the result?
Conversely, what would be the difference in flavor if the roast were 
ramped up during FC in order to shorten the time between FC and SC?  Is 
there ever a time where it would be desirable?
Is there some limit on how long the stretch should go?  miKe mentioned 
5:30 from FC to SC/EOR.  Would 10:00 be too long?  Why or why not?  What 
flavors or other characteristics would be present or missing if the 
roast was stretched too far?
181 roasts in the RK, 35 with the most recent setup (Natural Gas, 
indoors, so I don't need to roast in 0 degree weather!) and I'm still on 
the steep up-side of the learning curve.
Thanks for the discussion.
Joe
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4) From: miKe mcKoffee
The best teacher is experience. Roast the same bean various ways and cup.
Make changes based on results and repeat. Bracket various degrees of roast,
bracket same degree various total time, vary ramps same degree same time.
Decide on a result repeat adding slight variations in time and or temp and
or ramps and confirm. And repeat as necessary until 110% satisfied. I know,
sounds extreme and seldom is there time for the extreme but it takes what it
takes if as good as it can be is the goal.
FWIW I'd expect 10min FC to SC to kill flatter than a pancake about any
coffee. But who knows how some beans may react, real answer see above! Does
stretching FC to SC do anything else? It can tend to elevate sweetness but
too much will mute/muddle varietal character.
A few thousand roasts various methods under my belt the last scant 7 plus
years. When I get to a thousand roasts on the USRC I'll likely have an
excellent handle on it's full range of nuance capabilities. Perfecting a
craft takes time. AND Perfection is unattainable so there will always be
room for improvement. No shortcuts. I'll be on the up-side of the learning
curve until the day I die!
Yes much can be learned from the experience of others. Primarily as starting
points in personal learning IMO. There is no substitute for actual hands on
experience.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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5) From: Edward Bourgeois
MiKe   I think I hear you say i don't want to mess with my before 1st
profile for espresso as needing to be any different than if it were
for drip. Tom often mentions stretching certain beans especially for
SO espresso. For example the COE El Salvador Siberia "I highly
recommend this lot for espresso too, Single Origin Espresso if you can
extend the roast, finish slowly, tone down some of the brightness a
bit."  I assuming that even in a blend where I want to use a higher %
of a origin normally brighter bean I still want to try to tone it down
a bit.  I'm going to try a few test profiles on a central and try
pulling SO shots to compare and also see what rest factors are
involved to keep some fruityness
On Feb 20, 2008 11:53 AM, Joe Screnock  wrote:
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6) From: miKe mcKoffee
Suggest don't come to any conclusions until you've tried the shots out to at
least 10 days rest. And pretty much ignore shot results earlier than 5 or 6
days rest. Gotta tell ya, some of my best Ohana shots have been over 2 weeks
post roast. Yeah, various "fruits" a major element of Ohana's song.
And I'll retract/correct. I believe moderate slowing tanning through
browning can also have brightness taming affects. How slow and how affected?
What do I know!!! Ask me in another 10 years and few thousand more batches
under my belt:-)
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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7) From: Tom Ulmer
My opinion is there is no hard and fast rule. 
In general the longer times to first and subsequently to second will tend to
mute some flavors.
Whether this will have the effect you're looking for is unknown.
Starting from my standard profile...
A dense bean that works in an aggressive roast would not generally benefit
from stretching the time to first and extending second crack has some much
desired effects for my palate.
Whereas a less dense bean that needs to be coaxed along gently benefits more
from the stretch to first for my tastes than extending second.
However, this is just my take and subject to change as it suits me.

8) From: Joe Screnock
miKe,
Thanks for the reply.  This one paragraph is *exactly* what I was 
looking for:  "
 > FWIW I'd expect 10min FC to SC to kill flatter than a pancake about
 > any coffee. But who knows how some beans may react, real answer see
 > above! Does stretching FC to SC do anything else? It can tend to
 > elevate sweetness but too much will mute/muddle varietal character.
And I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of the post.  There is no 
substitute for experience.  However, if those *with* the experience 
would share some of it with the rest of us, we could have some broad 
guidelines of where to start our own experimenting.
To use a homebrewing example, if I wanted to make Honey Wheat with lots 
of banana / clove esters, I would use Wyeast 3086 (my personal 
favorite!) and hold the fermentation temp between 68 and 70.  Higher 
temps will accentuate the esters, but above 75 or so will result in it 
being too over-the-top and will add other undesirable flavors.  Lower 
than that will subdue the esters I'm trying to get.  Perhaps that's what 
someone else might like, and draw out the fermentation a bit.
Sure I could make multiple batches, changing the variables and noting 
the results, but it would be much quicker to have guidelines - a place 
to begin my trials.  And I wouldn't have 5 gallons times "x" batches of 
beer to drink!
To that end, I found the following:http://www.sweetmarias.com/roast.carlstaub.htmlInteresting notes on the sugars and acids present in green coffee and 
what the roasting process does to them.  I found especially noteworthy 
the suggestion to never heat the roaster above 520 degF (final 
sentence).  Up until quite recently my "profile" had been get the 
roaster to 535 as soon as I could (about 4 minutes) and hold until done 
(about 21 minutes to Second Crack).  I would get to First Crack in about 
16 minutes.  I'm not entirely sure I could get to First Crack in under 
20 minutes if I would have held the temp to a max of 520.  Now that I'm 
using natural gas indoors, I can get to first in 16 minutes at 500 to 510.
In my two roasts tomorrow, I'll do one with my current standard profile 
(500 for 10 minutes, 520 to First Crack, back to 500 and 3:00 to EOR) 
and try the second at 480 for 10 minutes, raise to 500 and see where FC 
and SC end up).  I'm not sure I can report cupping results as I'm still 
very much a novice at that.  Should be fun though.  :-)
Oh, the coffee to be roasted tomorrow is a Sumatra Lintong.
Thanks for your help.
Joe
miKe mcKoffee wrote:
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