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Topic: First meticulously (until the end) monitored roast (15 msgs / 595 lines)
1) From: Ken Knott
465 grams by the way...   a bit more than intended, but I used up what I had of that bean.
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2) From: Brett Mason
Welcome to Second Crack - that's the frenzied snappin dance the beans were
doing when you pulled them!  That's heat enduced, so without the cooling, it
ran on you...
Will still be good!
I don't GC, but your time seemed long to get there.  Did you have too few
beans in the load?  (my guess)
Thanks for sharing,
Brett
On 3/6/08, Ken Knott  wrote:
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3) From: Kevin
Ken,
You can't go wrong following in Eddie's footsteps.  His knowledge and
willingness to share it has been invaluable to me.  Without Eddie and others
on this list, I'd be in coffee purgatory.
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batch.  I find 8 oz (230g?) to be the max.   That's about right for second
crack considering the temp was ramped back up around 12:30 from your notes.
Typically, I wouldn't ramp it back up to 482 after first crack if you want
to approach second.  Just seems like too much heat to me after first crack
on the GC.  A good base-line profile I use on the GC is:
300F for 5 min  --> Warming phase, just to warm up the beans.  If this is
skipped and the beans are hit with too much heat, too soon, the outside
scorches and then insulates the center of the bean.  I've ruined many a
roast when I was starting out by just throwing heat at the bean.
~430F  for 5.5 min--> critical drying phase, time is strictly a guide here.
go by smell and sight of the beans (absolutely key).  less dense beans (i.e.
low grown like a Kona) will take on heat much more quickly here and tan
faster IMHO.  With low grown beans, I've actually stopped this at 4 min.
More dense (high grown) beans will take the heat on much more slowly so you
may want to take this out to 5 min or so).  I tend to take this drying phase
out longer for Kenyan's to tame some of the brightness.  But if you want a
brighter Kenyan, you can shorten this (I've done that too with success).
456-464 (depends on the time of year since I live in upstate NY.  colder
days it's 464, in the summer it's 456-460) --> to first crack.  First
typically (depending on the duration of stage 2) will be hit around
13:30-14:30.  I've noticed on my GC that spiking the temp to 482 for two
minutes after the drying phase to hit first crack sooner has no effect since
the GC can only increase temperature so quickly and the heating element has
only two states (off and on).  There is no modulating control loop here that
ramps temperature more quickly based on the differential from the temp set
point and actual state.  it's full blast until the temp is reached, then
off.  So, the ramp may depend on the specific unit in question and the
voltage at the receptacle.  My machine would never reach 460 from 430 in two
to 2.5 min.  Therefore, I use 456-464 through first crack through the end of
roast.  1st crack typically is a slow roll for ~2min and then the roast can
be extended or the temp raised slightly to the cap of 464 to get to second
crack or darker roasts.
I haven't been successful in using 482 after the drying phase to hit first
sooner and then dropping to ~460 once 1st crack starts.  The issues I ran
into here were two fold:
1) the temp GC didn't hit 1st crack any sooner (maybe 15 to 30sec sooner,
but that's it for me)
2) once 1st started and the temp was dropped to 460, the GC would shut the
heating element off until the temp read-out displayed 460. Then the element
would kick on but there is a lag between the time the element turns on and
the when the temp begins to rise again. The temp would coast down and bottom
out at ~445 and then take time to rise back up to 460 in accordance with the
natural ramp of the gc (again no control loop, just an element that's full
blast or off).  This would have the net effect of 'stalling' 1st crack and
stretching out the roast.
Hope this helps.
My home coffee roasting blog:http://homecoffeeroastblog.blogspot.com/Kevin
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4) From: Scott Bukofsky
Excellent notes, Ken.  I mentioned in a previous note that I had been
playing around with roasting profiles lately, and the effects are dramatic.
For about a year I had been using the simple 360 degrees/5 minutes, 460
degrees until roast end with good results.  Last week I tried adding in the
intermediate heat step as you describe and the results were much better.  I
roasted some CR LaMinita with each profile to ~ same final roast color, and
the roast with the intermediate temperature step was much better.  The other
roast was lifeless in comparison.
-Scott
On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Kevin  wrote:
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5) From: John Despres
Ken,
Eddie's profiles are excellent tools to get you started. I used a quite =
few until I got a handle on what I was doing as well.
Your GC seems to heat up much faster than mine. Taking 8 minutes as an =
example, you're 10 degrees higher than I am in the same type of profile.
I think your massive amount of beans may have had something to do with =
the quicker climb. I almost always roast 229 grams (half pound). A =
smaller volume will slow things down a bit. I tend to hit first between =
13:30 and 14:30 depending on the bean and profile.
I can't find the bean you roasted on the SM site, but was it dry =
processed? At that volume of beans, your chaff production would have =
been huge and the exit vent may have been clogged up, keeping more heat =
in the drum. Another concern roasting that much is fire - the chaff can =
catch on fire if it can't exit the drum, especially if you're going to a =
full 482.
If I want to avoid second, I set my final bump for about 465 - 470 which =
is where first occurs on my GC.
You're doing everything right, but don't start any fires! Keep playing =
and asking questions. Your questions are good for me, too!
John
Ken Knott wrote:
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ad of that bean.
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ith	my GC
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hiopian coffee.  It was not the same as the one I used (Ethiopian Organic Y=
igacheffe), but same country, what the hell....  :)
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in, and finally finishing at 482....
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.  So in a panic I found gloves and got the chamber out and open to dump.
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n' strongly.. smelled great....
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ems as I could hear the beans much, much better when I pulled the roasting =
chamber out of it while dumping the beans still in 2nd crack (?)
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ting and I scrambled for gloves...
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2008
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ee.com
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e.com
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-- =
John A C Despres
Hug your kids
616.437.9182
Scene It All Productions 
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6) From: Kevin
Ken,
I also recommend using the GC's E-stop (bypassing the roasters cooling
cycle) dumping the beans into a rapid been cooler (I use a shop vac, dog
bowl with holes, and a 2 gal bucket setup) and then running the cool cycle
on the empty chamber.  Cools beans in under 1.5 min)  This will prevent the
beans from coasting to a darker roast.  Coasting tends to dull the flavor
IMHO.
-- 
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7) From: John Despres
Awesome, Kevin! This is a very nice description of how the Gene Cafe works.
You've solved an issue that's been puzzling me for a little while - the =
temp rate of increase. It seems, no matter what profile I choose, the =
temp at a certain time is almost exactly the same (within a couple =
degrees). For instance, after a 5 minute drying phase, I may choose 435 =
and the temp at 8 or 9 minutes is the same as going directly to 471.
On this machine, it's about the time - got it! Once my warranty runs out =
and if I'm feeling adventurous, I may see if there's a way to mod the =
heating element for raising and lowering the heat output rather than the =
current on or off feature. I'd sure like to drop the temp to something =
specific rather than set it at, say dropping to 455 from 471, and watch =
the readout fluctuate from 445 to 455 and back and forth. I'm sure the =
bean mass isn't cooling and raising at such a rate since the input temp =
probe is what I'm reading, but it drives me nuts.
I just built a halogen heated roaster with a rheostat that will allow me =
to gradually raise or lower the temp this way. Now I have to learn how =
to use it... You can see it at
I loved reading this! I have also moved it to my "save" file, a very =
select file with posts I will read many times. Thanks again.
John
Kevin wrote:
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-- =
John A C Despres
Hug your kids
616.437.9182
Scene It All Productions 
JDs Coffee Provoked Ramblings =
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8) From: John Despres
Awesome, Kevin! This is a very nice description of how the Gene Cafe works.
You've solved an issue that's been puzzling me for a little while - the =
temp rate of increase. It seems, no matter what profile I choose, the =
temp at a certain time is almost exactly the same (within a couple =
degrees). For instance, after a 5 minute drying phase, I may choose 435 =
and the temp at 8 or 9 minutes is the same as going directly to 471.
On this machine, it's about the time - got it! Once my warranty runs out =
and if I'm feeling adventurous, I may see if there's a way to mod the =
heating element for raising and lowering the heat output rather than the =
current on or off feature. I'd sure like to drop the temp to something =
specific rather than set it at, say dropping to 455 from 471, and watch =
the readout fluctuate from 445 to 455 and back and forth. I'm sure the =
bean mass isn't cooling and raising at such a rate since the input temp =
probe is what I'm reading, but it drives me nuts.
I just built a halogen heated roaster with a rheostat that will allow me =
to gradually raise or lower the temp this way. Now I have to learn how =
to use it... You can see it at =http://homeroasters.org/php/forum/viewthread.php?rowstart=20&forum_id=3=2&thread_id=857#post_8015
I loved reading this! I have also moved it to my "save" file, a very =
select file with posts I will read many times. Thanks again.
John
Kevin wrote:
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rs
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se
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om
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e.com
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-- =
John A C Despres
Hug your kids
616.437.9182
Scene It All Productions 
JDs Coffee Provoked Ramblings =
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9) From: John Despres
Uh, oh... After my last hugely supportive response to Kevin, I must =
disagree on this one and begin a new discussion...
I used to do the same - emergency stop and dump to the col/vac cooler. =
In the process of playing, I decided to drop temp, typically at the end =
of 1st or shortly thereafter, smell and watch, usually about a minute =
and hit cool, continuing down to 250 degrees.
I end most of my roasts this way now - Here's why: 1) the roast evens =
out very nicely. Those last few beans that needed a bit more time get to =
catch up a bit. 2) Chaff removal. The extra time tumbling in the drum =
shakes more chaff loose and out the exhaust port.
I love this list! So much to learn and so much to share.
John
Kevin wrote:
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-- =
John A C Despres
Hug your kids
616.437.9182
Scene It All Productions 
JDs Coffee Provoked Ramblings =
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10) From: Kevin
John,
Your method takes advantage of the cooling phase just down to ~250F as
opposed to the full 180F?  I can see that working.  With the cool down for
the little time it'll take the GC to cool to 250 excessive coasting
shouldn't be a problem.  Especially if at 250 one slams the breaks on and
uses a bean cooler.  I'll have to try that and let you know how it worked
for me.  Thanks!
I'm just curious from your previous post, are you using halogen bulbs to
roast the coffee?  What wattage (sp) for the bulbs?  Have you tested it and
tasted the results?  Have you had an issues with the chaff igniting (are the
bulbs exposed to the chafe)? That's a darn nifty piece of engineering I'd
love to see a video of it in action!
BTW, love the "Spinal Tap" reference in the design!
Kevin
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11) From: Kevin
John,
Earlier in the thread you wrote,"I used to do the same - emergency stop and
dump to the col/vac cooler. In the process of playing, I decided to drop
temp, typically at the end of 1st or shortly thereafter, smell and watch,
usually about a minute and hit cool, continuing down to 250 degrees."
I was hesitant to try this out of concern that the roast would coast too
much past the desired end point.  Well, I roasted the last of my Peru Norte
Especial tonight using your suggestion to take advantage of the GC cool down
for about a minute.  The roast color was more even and there was much, much
less chaff on the beans.  Can's see how the bean coasted past the end point
with only 1 minute before hitting the bean cooler.  You've made me a
believer.
As for the practice of setting the temp to 482 after the drying phase, I
re-tried this tonight was well.  This time my GC rose above the normal
temperature set point used at stage 3 (460F) prior to first crack and
approached 482F. 1st was hit ~13:25 into the roast (almost a full minute
earlier than usual) and I immediately  dialed the temp down to 460F to
complete the roast using the GC cool cycle from 16:30 to 17:30 then the bean
cooler.  First crack lasted about 1.5 minutes.  I'm looking forward to
brewing this up tomorrow.
Two of my standard roasting practices have just fallen by the wayside
today.  I stand corrected on both counts.  That's the thing about this
hobby, as soon as you think you've got it mastered something comes up to
show you that you've only just begun the journey. So a big thank you to John
and Eddie for taking me one more step forward in this journey!
-- 
My home coffee roasting blog:http://homecoffeeroastblog.blogspot.com/Kevin
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12) From: Eddie Dove
Ken,
So how is the coffee?
Everything looks good except for the 465 grams of coffee, which would
have made two perfectly sized batches for profile control; the maximum
for the Gene Cafe is 300 grams.  It may roast that large of a batch
okay, if it doesn't start a fire, but the real problem will be halting
the roast.  Even with 300 grams of coffee, profile control is
difficult and the roast drifts quite a bit during cooling.  The Gene
Cafe uses ambient air to do the cooling and that air travels through
the heater box that was generating the heat to roast the coffee; the
heater box gets cooled too.  Although the fan does accelerate and
increase the airflow for cooling, the amount of heat in the roasting
chamber and the air passing through heater box does slow the cooling
process, and if the batch is too large, it can certainly exceed your
intended level of roast.
The increased fan speed during cooling is what also aids in the better
chaff removal using John's method of cooling.  Also, the slower
cooling, but with a smaller batch, account for John's method allowing
the roast to even out a bit.  While not slow enough to necessarily
flatten the taste (on smaller batches, ~230 grams), the slower cooling
should also reduce astringency on brighter coffees, highlighting the
sweetness.  I am glad John shared his cooling method and if I ever get
a few minutes to fix my Gene Cafe, I will have to try it.  Great work,
John.
Like John said, my profiles are a place to start.  You then must adapt
to your machine and your tastes.
Kevin & John - Thank you for the compliments.  It is greatly appreciated!
Respectfully,
Eddie
-- 
Stop telling God how big your storm is.
Instead, tell the storm how big your God is.
Home Coffee Roasting Blog and Referencehttp://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 8:42 AM, Ken Knott  wrote:
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13) From: Eddie Dove
Keep sending notes and we'll keep trying to help.
Have a great weekend!
Eddie
-- 
Stop telling God how big your storm is.
Instead, tell the storm how big your God is.
Home Coffee Roasting Blog and Referencehttp://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 10:38 AM, Ken Knott  wrote:
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14) From: raymanowen
"...what are the thoughts on the profile, temp ramp, etc, etc...."
My Q. exactly, along with some others.
I would never say "...good looking profile; nice ramp."
In spite of the BS numbers your particular temperature measuring system
might yield, the final arbiter is, "How does this roast cup?"
Then, can you repeat it (profile)? If so, it should cup the same. Your
observations and note taking are commendable. The true value in all your
work is to be able to repeat the roast at will, then introduce specific
variations to see how you like the cup at the end of the minor course
corrections.
My tongue and palate are crude, but I began to appreciate the flavors
associated with longer roasts- 10 minutes +, instead of the Blitzkrieg <5min
in a popper.
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 7:42 AM, Ken Knott  wrote:
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15) From: Bill
Ken,
I agree about the 5 pounder.  After a while of roasting different things I
got a 5 pounder to really try to hone in on a bean.  I got kinda tired of
that coffee, but I also had an opportunity to fiddle endlessly with it,
which was nice.  so maybe buy a couple of pounds that are intriguing and a
fiver and go at it.
glad to hear that it's good and that you're enjoying it.
bill
On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Ken Knott  wrote:
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