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Topic: Starbucks bashing, revisited (31 msgs / 631 lines)
1) From: Barry Luterman
Time to take the CSA pledge
On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Paul Goelz  wrote:
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2) From: Paul Goelz
I recently bought some Cafe Estima and some Mokha Sanani..... the 
Estima was mentioned here recently as being a coffee of interest and 
the Sanani is one I have had from Tom and loved.... and also had at a 
Starbucks tasting (before I had it from Tom) and liked.
Well..... I have to say I retract most of the positive things I have 
said about Starbucks.  They were both quite definitely awful.  The 
Estima was typically Starbucks over roasted and tasted burned.  The 
Sanani had absolutely none of the lovely smooth chocolaty flavors it 
has from Tom and when I roast it to FC.  It too tasted burned.  In 
fact, about five days after I bought it, I tossed the remaining beans 
after the pot this morning was nearly undrinkable..... bitter, burned 
and pungently nasty.  They could be passing off Vietnamese YUK as 
premium coffee for all I could tell.  At that roast profile it all 
tastes the same.
I still consider some of their steamed milk espresso drinks 
acceptable, but these coffees were a complete and total 
disaster.  Especially in light of the $16/lb price tag.  YUK.
Paul
Rochester Hills, MI USA
paul at pgoelz dot com
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3) From: miKe mcKoffee
<Snip>
 
<Snip>
Man don't ever stumble on a coffee house that does GOOD espresso based
beverages or you may be forced to change your opinion further. Bad espresso
makes for bad any beverage with espresso in it IMNSHO. It's like night and
day.
Kona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
www.mcKonaKoffee.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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4) From: Paul Goelz
At 09:21 PM 3/6/2008, you wrote:
<Snip>
Before they changed to automatic machines, the local Starbucks did in 
fact have acceptable steamed milk espresso drinks.  The espresso 
itself was still a bit bitter but in a drink it was better than the 
other places around here by a wide margin.  These days, it is not as 
good any more although it is still drinkable.  For that they still 
get credit in my book.
We have Carribou around here as well as some independents and 
Starbucks is the best by a wide margin.  I once got a decent latte at 
the Beanery but the next one was pretty awful.
Why people drink the COFFEE at Starbucks is beyond me.
And I have stumbled into a coffee house that does good espresso.  My 
house ;)  It isn't perfect because I don't drink enough espresso to 
justify a separate roast, but the FC coffees we drink actually make 
nice espresso when they are fresh.
Paul
Paul Goelz
Rochester Hills, MI USA
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5) From: Edward Bourgeois
On the Starbucks web site the describe their roasting technique. The
last sentence sums it up as they finish 2nd crack.
quote "Green coffee beans are heated in a large rotating drum, then
their transformation begins. After about 5 to 7 minutes of intense
heat, much of their moisture evaporates. The beans turn a yellow color
and smell a little like popcorn. After about 8 minutes in the roaster,
the "first pop" occurs. The beans double in size, crackling as they
expand. They are now light brown. Very sour one-dimensional flavor
notes are dominant, while more complex coffee flavors haven't yet
developed.
After 10-11 minutes in the roaster, the beans reach an even brown
color, and oil starts to appear on the surface of the bean. At this
roasting time (different for each coffee, but usually somewhere
between 11 and 15 minutes), the full flavor potential begins to
develop in the beans, bringing all of their attributes into balance.
The "second pop" signals that the coffee is almost ready. The moment
that the coffee is released into the cooling tray is a memorable one.
The smell of freshly roasted coffee fills the air, along with the
sound of applause created by the final clapping of the "second pop."
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
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6) From: John Despres
I recall someone on the list wanting to know how to roast like =
Starbucks. There it is in a nutshell - Go to the applause of second pop.
Second pop, indeed.
John
Edward Bourgeois wrote:
<Snip>
e.com
<Snip>
<Snip>
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7) From: Brett Mason
http://www.kingsford.com/On 3/7/08, John Despres  wrote:
<Snip>
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Cheers,
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8) From: Barry Luterman
Amazing I read that as.... Second poop, indeed.
On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 7:41 AM, John Despres 
wrote:
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9) From: raymanowen
Be Nice, GI.
The baristas at that Purveyor of Coffeelike Beverages (PCB) just completed
some education about a week ago. PCB closed their stores for a few hours to
effect the training.
I was going to watch PCB on the Dow Jones ticker to see their stock jump
while they were closed down.
Then I realized my GAS factor re: PCB is vanishingly small, and I was in the
middle of moving. My aversion to moving exceeds my disinterest and permanent
Passover for PCB.
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 4:25 PM, Paul Goelz  wrote:
<Snip>
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"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976
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10) From: Allon Stern
On Mar 7, 2008, at 1:20 PM, raymanowen wrote:
<Snip>
New printing on the cups: WARNING: CONTAINS PCBs
-
allon
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11) From: Sandy Andina
On Mar 7, 2008, at 5:16 AM, Paul Goelz wrote:
<Snip>
Because old habits (and current addictions) die hard? My singing  
partner in Andina & Rich not only was the first to record my song  
"Caffeine" (that was his version on one of the CoffeeGeek.com  
podcasts) but truly "walks the walk."  He will drink black coffee any  
time, anywhere (however, he did pronounce the execrable joe at a  
little diner n. of Effingham, IL barely drinkable, but proceeded to  
drink it anyway). His travel mug is as indispensable as his cowboy  
hat. Believe me, as awful as Starbuck's brewed coffee may be, it is  
worlds better than what passes for coffee in many if not most truck  
stops and diners (at which I stick to water or tea). As much as I love  
coffee, there comes a time during the day when I realize I need to  
keep hydrated and that the pint of water necessary per cup of coffee  
to stave off dehydration is not within my reasonable capacity to  
consume.
<Snip>
I can certainly vouch for that!!! :)  I still have lovely memories of  
those Yemen Mokha Sana'ani cappuccini!
Sandy Andina
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
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12) From: Sandy Andina
Yeah, I remember years ago their stores would have several sealed  
glass bins of beans--green, yellow, city (which they disdainfully  
called "cinnamon"), full city (which they erroneously claimed is still  
not "done") and dark roast (deep French, just this side of Spanish or  
what they erroneously called "espresso").  These bins were features of  
the stores for years, and miseducated the public into thinking that  
only dark=good (and by implication, the mark of not only the  
connoisseur but also of maturity and macho in the consumer as well).
Sandy Andina
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
On Mar 7, 2008, at 11:31 AM, Edward Bourgeois wrote:
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13) From: raymanowen
" Why people drink the COFFEE at Starbucks is beyond me."
At the PCB, the beverage emulated has a certain etymology:
Cof Fee < medical term "cough" + price = 4bucks. Deciphering the code of the
Newspeak term:
"Cough" has had the -ugh expurgated and the fee (4bucks) partially
integrated.
Not wanting to disclose the actual price, they advertise it as  * bucks, not
4bucks. That has morphed to their registered trade name, "Starbucks," that
we understand as  **$.*
Actually finding COFFEE at *$ is a caseless hope, but it's 4bucks,
nonetheless.
In full disclosure, I really did get an Outstanding double shot at the PCB
kiosk at Safeway a couple of months ago. I was too dumbfounded to turn back
and exclaim to the barista how much I liked it. (My synapse carries a pocket
mirror so it thinks it's actually talking to something. I never thanked the
guy.)
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?
On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 4:16 AM, Paul Goelz  wrote:
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14) From: Dave Kvindlog
<Snip>
Oil on the surface on the beans minutes before 2nd crack?  Roasting too
hot!!!
-- 
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iHomeroast
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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15) From: Rich
Sounds like the "second pop" is actually the third crack.  Time to call 
the fire dpt.  Be proactive.
Dave Kvindlog wrote:
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16) From: Michael Mccandless
Kingsford roast.
McSparky
On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 9:05 PM, Dave Kvindlog  wrote:
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17) From: Edward Bourgeois
Within this thread I posted the Starbucks roasting technique as stated
on their web site(reposted below). I did not mention the picture they
use also tells much. A large drum roaster with plumes of smoke pouring
from it as the applauding beans(as they put it) have been dumped. I
have not bashed *bucks in the past because I have never consumed any
of their products. But their roasting description under "coffee
education" really bothered me. To me there is nothing wrong with them
selling very dark roasted coffee product that is their call. There are
some who prefer such and that is a personal choice.
But to imply that what Tom has taught us or how MiKe roasts for his
customers is basically inferior roasting is not right. Their roasting
description is poorly written and very misleading at best. Being as
large as *bucks is I imagine their site gets a lot of hits. For those
who are just trying to learn about coffee this kind of "coffee
education"(as they call it) deserves to be bashed.
quoted
"We're passionate about the way we roast our coffee. We call our roast
the Starbucks Roast(R). It's more than a color: it is the cumulative,
positive, and dramatic result of roasting each coffee in a unique way,
helping each one reach its maximum flavor. The color can be duplicated
-- but the taste cannot....
 Green coffee beans are heated in a large rotating drum, then their
transformation begins. After about 5 to 7 minutes of intense heat,
much of their moisture evaporates. The beans turn a yellow color and
smell a little like popcorn. After about 8 minutes in the roaster, the
"first pop" occurs. The beans double in size, crackling as they
expand. They are now light brown. Very sour one-dimensional flavor
notes are dominant, while more complex coffee flavors haven't yet
developed.
After 10-11 minutes in the roaster, the beans reach an even brown
color, and oil starts to appear on the surface of the bean. At this
roasting time (different for each coffee, but usually somewhere
between 11 and 15 minutes), the full flavor potential begins to
develop in the beans, bringing all of their attributes into balance.
The "second pop" signals that the coffee is almost ready. The moment
that the coffee is released into the cooling tray is a memorable one.
The smell of freshly roasted coffee fills the air, along with the
sound of applause created by the final clapping of the "second pop."
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
Amherst MA.http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/Homeroast mailing list
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18) From: Bill
I hadn't really thought about it before, but I was thinking about *$ and
their roasters.  I have heard that they use continuous roasters, and that
they have 3 roaster complexes in this country.  But their roasters can't be
hacks... I just realized that.  I mean, it must be a real art to make beans
"palatable" as charred and stale little nasties... Anyway, I had never given
the roasters (the people) much thought...  bill
On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Edward Bourgeois 
wrote:
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19) From: John Despres
There is something to be said for consistency. By their standards, they =
get it right every time. That takes some sort of skill, right?
If their "coffee education" catches on, the next generation of roasters =
will be referring to second "pop".
Second pop indeed.
John
Bill wrote:
<Snip>
en
<Snip>
<Snip>
ee.com
<Snip>
<Snip>
e.com
<Snip>
<Snip>
-- =
John A C Despres
Hug your kids
616.437.9182
Scene It All Productions 
JDs Coffee Provoked Ramblings =
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20) From: Bill
here's to thinking that i would prefer a second beer to a second pop...
On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 12:17 PM, John Despres <
john> wrote:
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21) From: sci
Of course all of Sweet Mariaistas disagree with this. However, as Pendergast
points out in his riveting book, the dark roast revolution is about profits.
The crappy beans that Starbucks tosses into their hoppers probably does
taste "very sour one-dimensional flavor notes" after first crack. I try to
explain this to people and they think I'm crazy. I tell them that you can
take a good green bean and a crappy green bean and roast them both to French
Roast (what they want to rename as Starbuck's Roast) and they will taste
about the same: burned. However, roast them both at City and there's where
you can separate the sheep from the goats.
after about 8 minutes in the roaster, the
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22) From: Brett Mason
I think you're spot on regarding the cheap beans, particularly as Starbucks
does.  Great beans can go to French Roast, if done so carefully, and the
tastes will be caramelized, yet evident.
I am not certain Starbucks can help themselves.  Because of the vast amount
of beans consumed, there are not enough high end beans to meet their
objectives and still turn  profit.  In essence, their business model
precludes them from mass-producing high end beans...  Occasionally their
black apron selections, roasted lightnote style, can turn a nice presspot...
Not that I have ever had these.  But I have...
Regards,
Brett
On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 7:02 PM, sci  wrote:
<Snip>
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23) From: Floyd Lozano
I for one hope they never turn their eye to the stuff we buy.  A coffe
giant like them could snap up every single small lot they wanted, I'm
sure.  In 2007, they bought over 20 million pounds of coffee.  Then
again, they probably paid a lot less a pound than we do ;)
-F
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24) From: Bill
20 mil... sounds like a stash that's about right... plenty of variety!
On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 10:40 PM, Floyd Lozano  wrote:
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25) From: Edward Bourgeois
I'd guess, for less than 1cent more per cup or shot going to the
farmer and local processing would allow the basic quality improvements
needed.
On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 12:42 AM, Bill  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
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26) From: Paul Goelz
At 02:17 PM 3/9/2008, you wrote:
<Snip>
I'm pretty sure that was what it was called when I started roasting 
in around 1995 or so.  I recall being surprised when the term second 
"crack" came into the vocabulary.
Paul
Paul Goelz
Rochester Hills, MI USA
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27) From: Paul Goelz
At 12:40 AM 3/10/2008, you wrote:
<Snip>
Not if you look at the shelf price.  $16/pound for the burned stuff I 
bought.  Yikes!  That is impressive profit.
Paul
Paul Goelz
Rochester Hills, MI USA
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28) From: Floyd Lozano
We should see if we can bring a new term into vogue.  Since crack and
pop have already been used, I vote 'snap'.  Today, I am drinking 10
day rested Sumatra Tarbarita peaberry taken 30 sec into second snap.
-F
On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 6:19 AM, Paul Goelz  wrote:
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29) From: Allon Stern
Perfect for a "rice crispies" blend!
-
allon
On Mar 10, 2008, at 8:09 AM, "Floyd Lozano"  wrote:
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30) From: Ross
Floid,
If you use Snap for 1st, 2nd should be called crackle.  Trying to stay on 
subject,  now that Starbucks has been bashed sufficiently it's time to buy 
their stock.  If you bought it a year ago, my condolences, however timing is 
everything, and now is the time.  I will remind you how much you would have 
made a year from now and a year after that.  Probably enough to supply 
yourself with green beans for life.
Ross

31) From: Bill
you know 'snap' is still in use with the teens as a mild curse word.  so you
could say, 'ah, snap, my stupid beans sailed into second snap without any
warning!'  then we'd all be really cool.
On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 6:09 AM, Floyd Lozano  wrote:
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