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Topic: Alchemist John? Any help here? Was Caffeine via (12 msgs / 282 lines)
1) From: Brian Kamnetz
I've been hoping that Alchemist John would pipe up here. In the past
he has posted on this topic and, interesting as it was, I just cannot
recall what he said. I do recall (I think) him saying that until the
coffee is roasted the caffeine is not accessible at all.
Brian
On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 6:31 PM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
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2) From: Alchemist John
And here I am.  I did do a rough study some time ago.   I will try 
and choose my words carefully here.
What I found was the water extractable caffeine plotted on a mg/kg 
basis (non-corrected 'wet' weight of roasted beans) vs roast time was 
semi-gaussian (the level rose then fell) with an apex somewhere 
around Full City.
I did not correct or even take into account the density change.  I 
weighted out ground coffee, "french pressed" it, then micro-extracted 
the caffeine from the water (coffee) with MeCL2, and analyzed via GC/MS.
I don't quite get what you are saying Bryan.  No offense, but it 
sounds a bit like what I hear when people have data and want to fit 
it to a model that doesn't fit or when someone is disagreeing just to 
disagree (which can be fun).  I will grant the beans are getting less 
dense as they roast, but a gut feeling is that the ground coffee is 
not changing significantly in the area of the roast curves where we 
drink coffee (City to Vienna).
What Brian was alluding to about the caffeine was a hypothesis on my 
part only.  The caffeine was quite low for "under roasted" beans and 
roughly corresponded to how hard/difficult they were to grind.  I 
don't have much belief that caffeine is actually created during the 
roasting process, so the only other explanation I see is that it is 
simply not available for extraction by being bound up in the (hard) 
cell matrix.
It might be fun to do a more rigorous study at some point and include 
a normalization from green been weight and compare available, water 
extractable caffeine vs total caffeine (extracted with solvent and a 
sonic cell disrupter).
Questions?
At 16:51 3/25/2008, you wrote:
<Snip>
John Nanci
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.chocolatealchemy.com/Homeroast mailing list
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3) From: True, Dennis W. FC1 (CVN69)
Ok so you are saying there is Caffeine IN the COFFEE BEANS? 
That is sweet!!!!!!
Ok I had to have some fun...
Seriously thanks John for the very insightful study BTW what is a GC/MS?
(Gas Chromatagraph?)
Dennis

4) From: Alchemist John
Gas Chromatagraph/Mass Spectrometer - one of the toys I have at work.
At 05:16 3/26/2008, you wrote:
<Snip>
John Nanci
AlChemist at large
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5) From: Rich
And right handy for detailed analysis of you morning cup of coffee.  And 
today it might even be lower cost than a Clover...
Alchemist John wrote:
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6) From: Brett Mason
My morning analysis is conducted using a 'muter-mug of whatever I brewed....
B
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 8:05 AM, Rich  wrote:
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-- 
Cheers,
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7) From: Brian Kamnetz
Thank you, John. I recall now being fascinated by the normal
distribution you previously mentioned.
Brian
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 8:02 AM, Alchemist John
 wrote:
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8) From: Cameron Forde
Both coffee and tea plants (as well as others) use caffeine as defense
against insects and so it wouldn't make sense for it not to be present
until roasted.
Cameron
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Brian Kamnetz  wrote:
<Snip>
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ceforde
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9) From: Kris McN
Cameron,
The caffeine is present, it's just not water-soluble until roasted. Insects
don't roast and brew, they chew.
Best
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Cameron Forde  wrote:
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10) From: Alchemist John
I didn't say not present - I said not water extractable.  If an 
insect eats the bean, it is exposing the caffeine.  No contradiction.
At 14:09 3/26/2008, you wrote:
<Snip>
John Nanci
AlChemist at large
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11) From: Cameron Forde
John,
I hope that what I wrote didn't come across as my disagreeing with
your findings.  For some reason I thought someone had written that the
caffeine was produced in the roasting (but looking back over the
thread I can't find this statement).  I think that it is pretty
interesting that plants produce a chemical to fend off an invader and
in so doing create a symbiotic relationship with another species.
Cameron
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Alchemist John
 wrote:
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ceforde
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12) From: Alchemist John
No, you didn't come across that way at all.  I just wanted to make 
sure what I said was clear.
At 20:41 3/26/2008, you wrote:
<Snip>
John Nanci
AlChemist at large
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