HomeRoast Digest


Topic: OT: Earth Hour (96 msgs / 2219 lines)
1) From: Greg
Lets join in on turning out our lights tonight from 8pm to 9pm local time in
support of Earth Hour.  Myself I am curious to see what the savings will be
for just turning our lights out for one hour....
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2) From: miKe mcKoffee
Rather than that how 'bout being in the habit of always (ALWAYS) turning out
the light when you leave a room. It annoys me no end lights being left on
and when mentioned "oh I was coming back later" or similar...
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
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3) From: Dave
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 7:44 AM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
I'm with you miKe. Lights left on is definitely one of my pet peeves.
When my daughter moved out my electric bill dropped an average of
$50/mo. And I can always tell when she's visiting.
-- 
Dave
Some days...
It's just not worth chewing through the leather straps
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4) From: Dave
8pm, its dark here this time of year. Are we supposed to light candles
and generate soot? That'll help with global warming;-)
-- 
Dave
Some days...
It's just not worth chewing through the leather straps
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 7:38 AM, Greg  wrote:
<Snip>
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5) From: Joseph Robertson
I decided not to get bend and upset every time it happens and went proactive
on it.  I have started putting in motion switches that you can adjust for
time on. When you leave the room and no motion for set amount of time out
goes the lights. Not that expensive considering they pay for themselves.
This "earth conscience" awareness thing begins with waking up to the fact
that we don't just live on a rock here but a living and breathing object
that needs to be looked after on the most basic levels.
JoeR
On 3/29/08, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
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6) From: Brett Mason
I can't resist....
I'll be turning my lights on outside this evening, so I can see this
wonderful Earth even when it's dark!  What a great place!
Brett
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Greg  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Brett
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7) From: Brett Mason
I have seven sons, and a constant theme in our house is "Turn out the
lights, TV's, Computers, and game machines...."
I am thinking of getting the clapper (http://www.amazon.com/Clapper-Sound-Activated-Switch-Each/dp/B0000CGKLR),so
when the boys are having fun, I can applaud them....
Brett
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 9:44 AM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Brett
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8) From: Joseph Robertson
SpaceShip Earth.....;)
JoeR
On 3/29/08, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>
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9) From: Brett Mason
I like Snopes - gets rid of the information...
Here's two houses - one is a 20 room energy guzzling hole, and the other is
an energy efficient eco-friendly home....
Find the conservative, and find the Earth Friendly person....
Then look here:http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/house.aspLights on at 8PM tonight
Brett
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 11:05 AM, Joseph Robertson 
wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Brett
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10) From: Clay Spence
If it's clear where you are, go outside and see if the light pollution is
any less. You might be able to see more stars. Of course it depends on how
many of the lights are actually turned out in your area.
I've got to try the motion switches. Some people claim it actually increases
security outside your house, since the lights come on only if something is
moving.
Clay
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11) From: Joseph Robertson
Clay,
Those others that I know are using the motion light systems say it is a no
brainier. Most just don't know what's on the market or many don't give a
rip. Let's hope earth day wakes a few up. Even if it is only for a few
minutes. In my human experience it seems there are two distinct groups of
folks. Those that care and are conscious of environmental issues already and
those who go through life with three things on there brain, money,sex,food.
Could be in any order. I'm interested in those on the wire about to have
that once in a lifetime epiphany where they realize life here goes way
beyond the 50 or so square inches of earth they stand on every day.
Off the soap box and back to the business of coffee.
JoeR
On 3/29/08, Clay Spence  wrote:
<Snip>
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12) From: Paul Helbert
We lived in France and Morocco in the mid to late seventies. Couldn't
believe the waste when we got back home. Our apartment in Grenoble had push
button thirty second timers on the stairwell and hall lights. Our car got
about 40 mpg. The heater was electric resistance into a brick pile which
only used current at night when the off peak loads (and prices) were lowest.
I'm all for anything which might cause folks to wake up and conserve. I
guess this hour of lights off qualifies. At first I was concerned that it
might cause problems for the utilities, but I think their software is up to
managing it...and I doubt if any oversupply will be widespread. It doesn't
seem to have caused any problems in the time zones of Australia, Asia or
Europe as far as I can see from the news on the web.
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 1:18 PM, Joseph Robertson 
wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Paul Helbert
Maliki militant Shi'ite al Qaeda bomb Ibn Batuta Castro terror Chaney
illegal Yankee Dollar eh?
--Homeland security, Thanks for reading this.
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13) From: Brett Mason
Paul - how many miles do you drive in a week?  In fact, that question is for
everyone...
I certainly think Miles-Per-Gallon is an interesting concept, but how many
miles are you driving every week?
My Porsche gets really poor mileage.  But who cares - I drive 1/2 mile to
work, and 1/2 mile home.  This commute brings very little impact on our
Earth, but I can only imagine the anger and resentment it might cause to
those who would judge the vehicle on the FUN or PERFORMANCE factor.... or
even MPG factor...
So, how many gallons a week are YOU burning?
Brett
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 2:54 PM, Paul Helbert 
wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Brett
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14) From: Aaron
Screw earth hour,  just more propaganda from the bedwetters and warmers.
If one is truly conscientious then they will have been doing this kind 
of stuff already, not just some simple minded act propogated by simple 
people to make everyone 'feel good'.  Oh GEEEE,  Look at MEEE,  I really 
DO CARE......  put self into self hugging straight jacket pose.
Kind of like those who goto church twice a year,  christmas and 
easter... yah like that's going to save you....  its pretty much just an 
empty gesture.
You really care, then make those changes PERMANENT,  turn off your 
electricity, oh but wait, then you'd miss this weeks episode of american 
idol.  wow THAT is critical, can't miss that.   Hypocritical BS is all 
it is.  I just love those who are always willing to tell everyone else 
what they need to do, yet rarely walk the walk themselves.   Gee I 
wonder if Owlgore is going to shut down the grid on that mansion of his 
...naah.. that'd be too much of an inconvenience.
Oh and the motion switches... they burn energy 24 hours a day 7 days a 
week, even in idle mode.... I think itd be cheaper, and more efficient 
to beat the kids ass and make them turn the lights out after they leave 
the room.... naah,  that delves into the accountablility thing again.
Aaron
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15) From: Brett Mason
Hey Aaron - your post is POLITICAL.
Unlike everyone else's post on the same subject, which somehow isn't
POLITICAL?
Where's the list police when ya need them?
LIGHTS ON at 8 folks...
Brett
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 4:42 PM, Aaron  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Brett
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16) From: Bryan Wray
Wow Aaron... someone been deprived of coffee for the past couple days (or months... for that matter...)?
Chill out man, sit back, enjoy a cup... breathe.  It's going to be okay.
-Bry
 
"It is my hope that people realize that coffee is more than just a caffeine delivery service, it can be a culinary art"- Chris Owens of Cafe Grumpy in NYC.
       
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17) From:
I have been avoiding commenting on the earth hour thread because I try to
stick to coffee on this list, perhaps because I am a Bible Thumping Baptist
Preacher and I have many opportunities to opine and wax an elephant on what
ever I feel is relevant so I don't need to do it here.
That being said  Aaron's post was spot on....In my never to be humble
opinion
David

18) From: Brett Mason
There's a Concert Choir concert at the High School tonight, and I am
thinking that perhaps I can sneak into the back, and shut off the lights
precisely at 8PM.  I can only imagine the pleasure of the audience,
realizing we are helping save the planet....  I'll turn them back on at 9PM.
Brett
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 6:17 PM,  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Brett
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19) From: Joseph Robertson
Bret,
I drive a little less than you. Regarding your comment about being judged by
your vehicle, I don't have a lick of time for those with so little insight
to know the difference between green cars and collector cars for the love of
it.
JoeR
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>
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20) From:
Hey now we are thinking how about finding the master power switch at the
movie house, imagine how much juice the local multiplex uses.  You can then
tell all the complaining moviegoers that they are helping to save the
planet.
Funny how Michigan has had their snowiest winter in recent memory including
the 4 inches we got on Thursday (That's March 27)  Global warming at its
finest

21) From: Paul Helbert
Did I start this by pointing out that, in my experience, Europeans were way
ahead of us in conservation of limited resources three decades ago? If so, I
apologize to the list. Setting up ridiculous paper tigers, name calling and
second guessing the motives of others is "spot on"?...My pet goat!
--
Paul Helbert
5% of the world's population consumes 1/3 of its resources and makes nearly
half of the waste. That 5% is US. -- Bumper sticker (that I think is true).
Does it make us think? Apparently not everyone.
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22) From: peterz
Truck stops and gas stations are easy to shut off also. They have a nice 
big red emergency off button.
The may not stay off for an hour though.....
isemingerfamily wrote:
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23) From:
Cool....u got a pet goat?  Him or her?  What is its name?  do you milk it?
Big market for goat milk I hear.

24) From: Paul Helbert
Naaah, I keep sheep and chickens for meat and eggs, but no goats. Some of my
customers have asked me why I don't do them and I responded "inertia, I've
never raised them". I read up on them and am still not interested. They are
just too bull headedly individualistic. I don't want the competition.
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 7:34 PM,  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Paul Helbert
My farm also helps support a thriving fox population!
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25) From: Dennis Parham
I have also gone green... But love cars.., I'm considering my next  
project of a replica speedster packed with a123 liion cells.... I  
currently have a small side hobby business making electric bikes...  
One goes about 40mph!! I love it and spared no expense since fuel cost  
is nil!! We will see how the car goes or even an
e-Espresso bike cart!!! Hehehe
On Mar 29, 2008, at 7:24 PM, Joseph Robertson   
wrote:
<Snip>
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26) From: John Despres
Am I allowed to use a flashlight to see how this roast is doing? I think =
it's smoking...
-- =
John A C Despres
Hug your kids
616.437.9182
Scene It All Productions 
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27) From: Brett Mason
Very cool, but...
Where's the custom guitars?
Brett
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 7:02 PM, Dennis Parham  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Brett
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28) From: Brett Mason
NOPE...
Brett
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 7:09 PM, John Despres <
john> wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Brett
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29) From: Aaron
NO flashlights.  Once the roast hits third crack it'll do the 
autoignition thing and give you plenty of earth friendly light... 
although perhaps not too kitchen friendly..  just follow the weep weep 
weep of the smoke detector to the exit.
Aaron
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30) From: Dennis Parham
That is growing by leaps and bounds!! We are marketing worldwide a  
music method ( not sure me posting site will upset tom.. So I'll just  
leave that out for now... LOL. Anyway it is basically a music and  
entertainment industry methods in a box... For those wanting to know  
how to get into business side of entertainment... So I'm still in  
there!!!
Dennis P
On Mar 29, 2008,  at 8:12 PM, Brett Mason  wrote:
<Snip>
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31) From: miKe mcKoffee
Oh boy get to disagree with Brett. Flashlight IS ok IF it is using
rechargeable batteries that have been charged with a solar cell charger:-)
Kona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
www.mcKonaKoffee.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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32) From: Brett Mason
Unless the solar cell recharger was made with all natural materials, you're
damaging the environment even more....
And if it was made with all-natural resourcesw, did you get an environmental
impact study completed before you so arrogantly delved into altering our
natural environment?
Cavalier ungrateful people who want to ruin our environment...
Brett
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 8:07 PM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Brett
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33) From: John Despres
WOOHOO! I think it's ok since it's one of those shaker kind that I =
recharge. But I had to turn on the lights to find the fire =
extinguisher... Fourth crack beans I can sell to the taco joint Dennis =
was visiting.
miKe mcKoffee wrote:
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e.
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e.com
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/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
<Snip>
-- =
John A C Despres
Hug your kids
616.437.9182
Scene It All Productions 
JDs Coffee Provoked Ramblings =
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34) From: Rich
Thank you David, I could not agree more.  I thought Aaron's post was to 
the point and very well worded.
isemingerfamily wrote:
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35) From: Rich
That is assuming you are not lynched at 2001hrs....
Brett Mason wrote:
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36) From: Brett Mason
Earth Hour makes a mockery of people who are conservation minded in their
everyday life.  It makes a point of show, not substance.  And it demeans
people who don't get in line and bow to the HUMANISTIC IDOL it has become...
It's a shame.  My family spent many hours today cleaning up state parks in
southeast Iowa.  There were 7 of us there, clearing trails, picking up
trash, and making it different.
But we didn't create 'PARK HOUR" or "SERVICE DAY"...  And we do stuff like
this all the time...
So I stand up and challenge the fiction of idealistic show that offers
little substance....
Hope everyone else's hour was as fun as mine.  I kept my lights on...
Brett
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 9:26 PM, Rich  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Brett
  If I am not causing you to think, then I am letting you down.
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37) From: Floyd Lozano
That's one way to look at it.  Or maybe, the intent is to draw
attention to the idea of conservation.  It's like saying 'Say No To
Drugs' is a mockery of everyone who every day does just that, with out
ever being told!
Hooray for you with the trash picking up.  Maybe if you did make the
Annual Mason Day Park Renewal Challenge, it would draw more attention
to the idea of cleaning up after one's self and / or others, and
inspire other to do the same.  And I don't think it would be a mockery
to the others around the world that do similar things.  It would just
be people trying to make more of a difference, that's all, and there's
nothing wrong with that in my book.
-F
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 10:37 PM, Brett Mason  wrote:
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38) From: Brett Mason
Good point Floyd...  Actually it is a pretty big group, and it meets every
week.  It's called Boy Scouts, and occurs worldwide.  amazingly, it seems to
create leaders, help others, and teach excellent moral principles....
But alas, it takes commitment.
So much easier to get evreyone to turn off light bulbs, and then act like
that is making a difference...
I don't need my name on it.  Been doing this for 12 years, have made a very
substantial long term commitment to making a difference.  But that's too
much for some, and because it's no longer politically correct to have
conservative moral character, it's denigrated very broadly.  What do we call
someone who works hard and tries to make a difference?  Oh yeah, "he's a
real BOY SCOUT." in a very demeaning fashion....
So yeah, I think Earth Hour is a charade.  Need more movie stars to step off
their jet, say a good word, and then disappear back into the pretend world
they come from...  Take the activists with you please as well...
Light a candle for me... right.
Brett
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Floyd Lozano  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Brett
  If I am not causing you to think, then I am letting you down.
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39) From: Jeff
You hit the nail on the head, Brett. Hypocrisy happens, and it's 
non-partisan.
For instance, deregulation of the financial industry allowed some poor 
suckers who failed high school math to get scammed by some slime ball 
mortgage brokers who never heard the words "moral" and "ethical." 
Conservatives tell them to "pick yourself up by your bootstraps and take 
personal responsibility."
Then those same conservatives bail out Bear Stearns to the tune of 
THIRTY ONE BILLION TAXPAYER DOLLARS (almost enough to to pay for the 
Iraq War for three weeks).
In other words, conservative economic policy includes but is not limited to:
a) big corporations get a pass on personal responsibility, therefore
b) they don't have to pull themselves up by the bootstraps, and
c) only big corporations qualify for Welfare, and
d) when you run out of money, cut taxes on the rich, start a war, and 
borrow a few trillion from China (to better understand that one, see a) 
above).
(Disclaimer-Conservative economic policy may put you and your family 
under a bridge. But hey, cheer up! Corporate execs and stockholders are 
eating extra well tonight!)
Brett Mason wrote:
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40) From: Chad Sheridan
Except "say no to drugs" didn't work, just like most heavy on show, lite 
on action things do.
Floyd Lozano wrote:
<Snip>
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41) From: Brett Mason
Hot Air Jeff - you're just Hot Air...
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 11:19 PM, Jeff  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Brett
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42) From: Floyd Lozano
I wanted to join Boy Scouts when I was a kid, and I could not.  My
brother and I could not afford a uniform.  Apparently the organization
has strict socioeconomic requirements. ;)
-F
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 12:14 AM, Brett Mason  wrote:
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43) From: Ed Needham
As a therapist, part of my job is to help someone find a way to re-think, 
re-form new habits, and re-build reactions, behaviors and whatever in the 
few short months I work with them.  I am keenly aware of how symbolic 
actions can affect change in an individual.  Without going onto boring 
details, I personally think 'making a statement' is a good first step, even 
if it has no immediate effect on the desired end result.  A day of prayer, a 
'lights out' hour, a march down main street are all statements that tilt the 
balance toward change.  God knows we need to make some changes.
(but I also spent the weekend at the Scout-o-Rama with my son)
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

44) From: Brett Mason
Floyd you are the first person I have ever met who could not join Boy Scouts
because of financial cost.
I don't buy it.
Brett
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 11:29 PM, Floyd Lozano  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Brett
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45) From: Brett Mason
Floyd you are the first person I have ever met who could not join Boy Scouts
because of financial cost.
I don't buy it.
Brett
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 11:29 PM, Floyd Lozano  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Brett
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46) From: Floyd Lozano
I wasn't the first.  My older brother beat me by 10 months! ;)
-F
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 12:31 AM, Brett Mason  wrote:
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47) From: Brett Mason
Now you have me chuckling...
B
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 11:42 PM, Floyd Lozano  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Brett
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48) From: Lynne
Joseph -
Very well put. Thank you!
Lynne
Joseph Robertson  said:
<Snip>
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49) From: Paul Helbert
In the human species, the sickness may be the self delusion that what we do
does not matter.
-- 
Paul Helbert
In my experience it is the sick chicken which fouls its nest.
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50) From: Lynne
Joseph -
Joseph Robertson  said:
<Snip>
It took me many years before the conservative living practices of my
depression-era mother & father finally sunk into my brain. (my mom always
simply called it the depression, while my dad never talked about the
suffering they experienced - I think, for them, there was nothing 'Great'
about it). They never wasted ANYTHING, because they considered it almost a
sin (no, my mother actually did call it a sin to waste).
Today, I'm attracted to simplicity. Guess some of their teachings FINALLY
reached me. It does pain me to see others who I care very deeply for, abuse
the resources that God trusted to put in our hands. Guess no matter how
drastic the evidence, (I've learned in sociology classes) it is human nature
to hang on to the familiar, to resist change. Honestly, I wish it wasn't
so... but until the effects hit home (I just heard a talk at my college by
someone who survived the Sudan genocide attempt in Dafur - drought, the most
crucial outcome of our abuse of this planet - is taking place already in
many parts of the world), some just won't believe.
One of the effects is with coffee production. There is no way that drought
is NOT going to effect us.
Now I'll get off my soapbox.. and back to the coffee.. (in the morning - now
it's time for bed..)
Lynne
(Liberal in her politics, Conservative in her lifestyle)
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51) From: Sandy Andina
Before I left the house to go out for dinner tonight at 6:30, I turned  
off all the lights except the one in the upstairs foyer (it lights the  
staircase for safety) and the pass-through to the office (the chain  
snapped off the ceiling fan light fixture, and I was not about to burn  
myself by unscrewing the CFL bulb).  I figured I wouldn't be home till  
11. Meanwhile, my son came home at 9:30 and had forgotten about Earth  
Hour; he panicked and ran downstairs and was just about to flip the  
breaker back on when he decided to try the TV set--only then did he  
remember.
On Mar 29, 2008, at 8:15 PM, John Despres wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
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52) From: Lynne
I completely forgot. Just like me - an hour late & a dollar short, as they
used to say (boy, that really makes me feel old..)
Anyway, I *had* good intentions. :(
Lynne
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 1:26 AM, Sandy Andina  wrote:
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53) From: Sandy Andina
I've always been bothered by the concept of "light pollution." Yes,  
urban and suburban civilization produces enough light from  
streetlamps, headlights and buildings to obscure views of the stars  
and planets.  Yes, it is a shame. But "pollution?" Doesn't that imply  
not only the presence of adulterants or impurities but also some  
harmful and perhaps irreversible physical effect on the those  
subjected to it and on the environment?  Noise "pollution" can damage  
hearing (often permanently).  Air and water pollution cause disease  
and damage to flora and fauna, as well as depletion of the ozone  
layer. But an abundance of electric light? Carbon footprint from the  
energy used to generate it aside, what physical harm does it cause? We  
can't stargaze in the cities and suburbs? Well, there are lots of  
things for which you need to "rusticate" to be able to enjoy.  Is it  
worth sacrificing public safety because of poorly lit streets that  
encourage increased crime or poorly lit roads that cause impaired  
visibility which in turn causes accidents? Is it worth eliminating  
night shift jobs at offices and factories (causing both unemployment  
and reduced productivity) in order for us city-dwellers to see 2000  
stars in the night sky instead of 200?  Yes, it is desirable for  
everyone, not just those who live out in the country, to be able to  
enjoy our natural surroundings, including the full beauty of the  
heavens. But it is more desirable, IMHO, to reduce street crime and  
auto accidents and provide full employment.  We can't have it all. And  
unlike the gases and particulates that foul our air and water, and  
excess noise that wrecks the structures of our inner ears, all that  
artificial light does not in and of itself create any physical damage-- 
permanent or temporary.  There isn't enough of it leaking into the  
night sky to confuse our biological clocks.Heck, *sunlight* causes  
deleterious physical and chemical changes.
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54) From: Joseph Robertson
Thank you for your comment on my post. I don't know if you remember me Lynne
but I remember you from the last home roaster gathering at miKes. A great
bunch of folks. I can't wait till the next reunion. So many changes for us
all to talk about.
JoeR
On 3/29/08, Lynne  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
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55) From: miKe mcKoffee
I got my first boy scout uniform from the Goodwill. Were there's a will
there's a way.
<Snip>
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56) From: Aaron
Ahh big evil corporate america.  What they forget to mention is that 
those corporations are the ones paying most of the taxes so the 'less 
fortunate' can get their welfare checks and government cheese vouchers 
once a month.
The home thing,  ahh im sure the borrower had absolutely NO 
accountability in the whole mess.  He / She never knew they had crappy 
credit, or couldn't afford a 250K house on his 12 dollar an hour job.  
Lets make sure that if we are blaming folks for the housing crash we 
include ALL those who are guilty and quit this poor victim crap for the 
idiot who took a loan they knew damned well they couldn't pay back...  
(hence the 425 credit rating)  oh but god forbid you tell them no sorry, 
no loan for you, then they wave the (you are picking on me because I am 
*** fill in the blank *** card) and get their cherished victims 
status.   But as long as there are entitlement minded leeches around who 
think they are owed whatever they want, with absolutely no 
accountability on their parts, it will perpetuate.... generally spikes 
on electrion years as ALL the politicians see that the easiest way to 
buy votes is to promises the parasites more handouts.
Aaron
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57) From: Clay Spence
I agree with many of the things written in this thread, and the new one that
started. And I disagree with a few things.
If you go to the Earth hour web site (the US one athttp://www2.earthhourus.org/)a lot of the content is about what to do to
conserve all the time, not just during the hour. So the Earth "hour" event
is intended to be marketing, essentially. ("Consciousness raising" in now
old-fashioned terminology. I admit it raises my conservative hackles. I have
liberal hackles too. I'm wishy-washy in some ways.)
I took it with a grain of salt and looked for lights that I would normally
leave on but was happy doing without, but left on some that I wanted. For me
it was an exercise to see how many fewer lights I could be comfortable with.
There were a few I would be happy turning out, not a lot.
One motion sensor I found used 3 watts. Seems like a lot. If I calculated
this correctly, for a 100 Watt light bulb the sensor saves energy if it
keeps the bulb off an extra 45 minutes a day, roughly, on average. It seems
to save more to use fluorescents, but they may have other issues. So putting
everything on motion sensors probably doesn't save, but putting some things
on motion sensors does. You'd have to think about it. But I like gadgets so
I'll probably put a few in anyway. I have fluorescents where my kids tend to
leave them on.
There may be no sense in which we save the planet by conserving, but we
might save some species. I'm not very hopeful, and it's not something you
can prove. You never get to go back and try it some other way.
Sandy, about light pollution: I think there are a few examples where
artificial lights hurt animals, but I don't think it's a big effect. I don't
really know. You are absolutely right that lights are needed for safety. And
there aren't many people who go outside and look at the stars at night. I
used to, and don't much anymore because I can't stay up much, too lazy, etc.
While not many people stargaze, outside lights can be chosen to illuminate
what they're supposed to, and not shine into the sky, or into other places
the light isn't intended to go. The result can save energy and therefore
money. And as a side effect it reduces what some call light pollution.
Checking the sky was just a suggestion. I didn't see much difference, but my
neighbors mostly didn't turn out their outside lights, so probably not many
people did.
On the other thread someone started talking about population. Politicians
ignore the problem, I think partly because it doesn't get votes and partly
because there aren't many good solutions. Educating women in poor areas,
maybe. It does seem likely to make all conservation efforts nearly
pointless. The only difference may be to make things not as bad as they
would have been.
Clay
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58) From: Floyd Lozano
Certainly, and good for you!  I can't tell you for sure if there was a
Goodwill with two uniforms that long ago, or whether my mother could
have sewn one together from old sacks of grain.  I can't tell you if
with a mother that didn't have a driver's license, and a father that
worked 2nd shift just to make enough money to pay the rent for the
house we lived in, if we could have willed a way to do Boy Scouts.
I'm happy to report though that I live very comfortably now, making
many time more than my father did, with a good education (my parents
felt this was important, and I agree!) so all's well that ends well.
Our will back then was spent simply surviving, and it worked, even
without the Boy Scouts!
-F
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59) From: Floyd Lozano
You oversimplify.  Some people are not educated well enough to
distrust it when someone offers them loan terms that sound too good to
be true.  Predatory banks are not without culpability here.  It is
idiocy to assume that there is one simple and straight reason for the
crisis and that it is always the fault of stupid people that just want
to own a home.  It's a hard way to learn that lesson for them.
And corporations pay the taxes.  How wonderful of them!  It's grand
that they don't simply pass that along to the consumer in the form of
higher prices and recover that money for shareholders or company
principals.  I for one am happy for their benevolent and giving
nature, as I sure would hate to think that tax was somehow
incorporated in the price of goods that I eventually purchase!
There is no blanket reason for blame here.  The system is complex and
not easily understood without examination of the whole, much like any
large and complex system, like our ecology, our economy.  Earlier, you
did say we are the proverbial tick on the dog's hind end.  In the
greater scheme of things, yes, we are, and the complexity of these
systems, so large and grand to us, pale in relation to the universe in
which we live, and in whatever thing this universe is but some
insignificant component.  When I screw up my little tiny cup of coffee
in my little tiny pot in my little tiny house in my little tiny piece
of the hugeness of existence though, it's pretty important to me!
Our effort is better spent trying to enrich and better the lives of
those around us.  There's enough bitterness and ill will to go around
without crapping in the pool some more.  I for one, will try to
concentrate my efforts in those threads, and bid this one farewell! =D
-F
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 5:55 AM, Aaron  wrote:
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60) From: Ben Salinas
The first motion sensor that popped up on google draws 20mA at 12VDC (note
that this is probably its peak draw, not its idle draw, so these numbers
could actually be lower). This coorelates to about .24W or about 5.76Wh per
day. So, in a month, one of these switches will use about 172Wh. Let's
assume it is controlling a 60 Watt bulb (in actuality, it would probably be
controlling something larger). This means that if it turns the bulb off for
more than 3 hours in a month (remember that there are about 720 hours in a
month) then it is saving energy.
Of course, you do have to take into account the fact that the motion sensor
has to be made from materials, and shipped from somewhere far away.
Additionally, there might be a marginal increase in energy use for the light
turning on and off more. But, your bulbs will also last longer, which also
needs to be taken into account.
To put it into a context we will all understand, this thing will draw about
2000Wh per year. That's the same as running your 2000W espresso machine for
1 hour. In other words, no one who owns an espresso machine should complain
about the current draw of a motion activated light switch (especially since
it ends up saving power) until they only use their espresso machine 1 hour
per year.
< It seems to save more to use fluorescents, but they may have other issues.
So putting everything on motion sensors probably doesn't save, but putting
some things on motion sensors does.>
At my college, one of our facilities guys will go around campus at night,
and write down what lights are on. If they are left on more than once, the
switch gets replaced with a motion detector. When people complain that the
lights sometimes turns off on them he says, "Well, you shouldn't have left
your lights on." It's actually quite effective.
Interestingly enough, the most expensive pair of pants I own I purchased
when I was 15- my office Boy Scout dress pants, coming it at $65. But (at
least in my area), they are required if you ever want to go on to become an
Eagle Scout (it's also required to jump through a bunch of hoops)
On 3/30/08, Floyd Lozano  wrote:
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61) From: Joseph Robertson
miKe,
You bring back some warm pre-coffee memories. Speaking of saving energy and
costs, I also got my boy scout uniform from Goodwill and a lot of
accessories from the CC store in Vancouver. Being a young boy I didn't know
any other way. I'm glad my mother made sure I got to have all those
memorable experiences.
JoeR
On 3/29/08, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
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62) From: Michael Wascher
"Education" isn't a cure-all. I had ring-side seats as thousands of highly
educated engineers, managers, and executives lost their jobs & pensions due
to predatory buying of corporations. Short-term profits based on quirks of
the tax law benefited a few, at the cost of many lives & a loss of long term
wealth that would have benefited the entire country.
If it's worth the expenditure of capital to fix the economy now then it
should have been worth the expenditure of capital to protect our citizens
from predatory practices.
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 10:54 AM, Floyd Lozano  wrote:
<Snip>
<Snip>
-- 
"Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring
the deadening effect of a habit." --W. Somerset Maugham
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63) From: Sandy Andina
On Mar 30, 2008, at 7:10 AM, Clay Spence wrote:
<Snip>
An example is the lighting along the most recently renovated sections  
of Lake Shore Drive--it is aimed at the roadways and pathways, with as  
much shielding as possible to eliminate upward "leakage." But it still  
is wrong to refer to excess light as "pollution," because light is not  
a pollutant nor even a substance.
Sandy Andina
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64) From: Sandy Andina
By the time I became a Brownie in 1959, it was permissible to wear a  
white shirt, dark skirt, beanie, neckerchief and pin instead of the  
full uniform--in fact, I was considered unusual because I had one  
handed down to me from my first cousin, whose mom was our troop  
leader. I think maybe three of twenty of us wore full uniforms.  And  
we had a fund to buy a beanie and neckerchief for any member who  
couldn't afford them; the pins were free. It was understood that when  
we "flew up" to Girl Scouts we would donate our Brownie regalia except  
for the pin. (Every girl had a white blouse or shirt and dark skirt,  
because they were required in NYC public schools for weekly assembly  
day; pants were a school no-no for girls under any circumstances  
except severely cold winter weather--and even then we had to wear them  
beneath a skirt or dress. That was the rule right up through 12th  
grade, and it was not changed until 1968).  When my son became a Cub  
Scout in 1991 here in Chicago, full uniforms were no longer required-- 
any navy blue shirt on which to sew the insignia and badges and any  
navy pants except jeans were acceptable, and the Sally Ann had plenty.  
(We went to our local school uniform store--most kids in our  
neighborhood went to Catholic school and though the public schools  
would not require white shirts and dark pants or skirts for all kids  
at all times until a couple of years later, plain cotton navy pants  
and shirts were very cheap and abundant. The uniform store also sold  
Scouting and Campfire accessories).  Nobody was turned away from  
Gordy's troop or den because of inability to afford any part of the  
uniform; those kids too proud to ask for assistance were allowed to  
attend in street clothes.
On Mar 30, 2008, at 9:43 AM, Floyd Lozano wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
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65) From: wncopeland
Hello Aaron,
      I have been roasting for about 2 months with my popper.  Low tech but still much better.  I have been getting great ideas from SM list.  I just had to "pop" in about your note on corporate largesse.  It turns out that corporations were doing a decent job of paying their taxes in the 70s.  They then paid 40% of all taxes.  Today, however, they only pay 14% of taxes, so it is not possible to say they are supporing our nation with their taxes   Bill
---------

66) From: wncopeland
Hello Aaron,
      I have been roasting for about 2 months with my popper.  Low tech but still much better.  I have been getting great ideas from SM list.  I just had to "pop" in about your note on corporate largesse.  It turns out that corporations were doing a decent job of paying their taxes in the 70s.  They then paid 40% of all taxes.  Today, however, they only pay 14% of taxes, so it is not possible to say they are supporing our nation with their taxes   Bill
---------

67) From: Brian Kamnetz
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 3:03 PM, Sandy Andina  wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy,
I presume that people are taking liberty with the literal definition
of "pollution" to make an aesthetic point.
However, I just checked a couple online dictionaries and several of
the actual definitions of "pollute" seem to leave room for this usage.
For example:
3. desecrate something: to violate the sacred nature of a holy place
Retrieved 03-30-08http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/pollute.htmlBrian
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68) From: Scott Polick
Actually, light is a substance.  It both a wave and a particle.
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 3:29 PM, Brian Kamnetz  wrote:
<Snip>
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69) From: Sandy Andina
On Mar 30, 2008, at 9:54 AM, Floyd Lozano wrote:
<Snip>
And there was one point in time at which home prices were rising so  
much that it was not unreasonable to expect that one would be able to  
accrue enough equity to later refinance at a lower fixed rate. When we  
bought in 1987 for $155K, rents were rising, Bob got an unexpected  
bonus and we would have gotten creamed in taxes had we not bought.  We  
were able to put down 20%, and we had an 11% fixed rate 30-yr loan,  
average at that time. A couple of years later, rates fell to 6.85 and  
we refi'ed to a 15-year; several years ago, rates fell again and with  
some digging and negotiating we were able to get a 10-yr. fixed at  
4.85 for just the remaining balance (most lenders wanted either at  
least 15 yrs. or insisted we take out enough cash to make the  
principal $100K; as we wanted to refi just the balance for just the  
remaining 7 years, that was unacceptable).  Even as recently as 2002,  
it was reasonable to expect values to keep rising.  After a high  
appraisal of $575K, our place is currently still worth at least $400K.  
We have about $70K and four years to go before we burn our mortgage.   
OTOH, my mom never owned property until she bought her FL retirement  
condo in 1994.  Rates had risen to nearly 7% for an ARM and 7.75% for  
a 30-yr fixed; she negotiated a 30-yr fixed on a $32.5K loan for 7.5%,  
fully expecting that by her death her equity (already $10K) would have  
exceeded the balance. By the time Hurricane Wilma had hit and prices  
had begun to plummet (at one point, the place was worth $120K and we  
even had a postmortem appraisal of $86K), she had passed away; when we  
were ready to sell, the bottom had dropped out of the market and we  
couldn't even find snowbirds who wanted to rent. Condo association  
rules prohibited any rentals of less than three months' duration, and  
the tenants would have to abide by all the same eligibility and other  
rules as owners.  My sister and I own it now, subject to the mortgage.  
At this point, there's $22K left on the mortgage and I doubt the place  
would fetch even that much (not even fully furnished, with its brand  
new HVAC unit) because it needs a complete redecoration including more  
modern kitchen and baths.  So in order to be able to even abandon the  
place by giving it back to the association (condo assessments and  
utilities are sucking over $600/mo out of our bank acct.) without  
killing our credit ratings, we're going to take out a home equity line  
of credit on our own house and pay off the condo mortgage, repaying  
the equity loan at 4.8%/mo. for about half what we're paying per month  
now. (Escrow shortfall due to rising property taxes, as well as the  
prospective tax increase itself, swelled our monthly payment from $220  
to $450 in just ONE year).  So not everyone caught in the mortgage  
crunch got there due to greed or poor judgment.
Sandy Andina
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70) From: Ed Needham
Even as far back as the eighties, there were laws in San Diego intended to
curb 'light pollution'.  The reason?  Palomar Observatory.  It seems the
'light pollution' from all night business and street lighting added so much
atmospheric light that it interfered with the sensitive scientific
observations of Palomar.  So limited, low pressure sodium lighting, which
looked very strange to my eyes back then, was instituted as the law.  This,
in conjunction with restrictions of when outdoor lighting could be on, and
how much lighting was allowed made things difficult for me when I was trying
to apply corporate design standards to new and remodel KFC stores.  I'm sure
'light pollution' affects other areas of life, and is likely a valid
concern, but I'm not aware of any.http://www.astro.caltech.edu/palomar/lp.htmlI still think the eerie yellow glow of the low pressure sodium lighting is
creepy.
(yes, I had career in architecture back then, not to be confused with what I
do now)
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

71) From: Paul Helbert
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 3:23 PM,  wrote:
<Snip>
Oh, it's possible to say it, alright. Just re-read the post.
<Snip>
-- 
Paul Helbert
I read it on the internet, so it has to be true.
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72) From: Sean Cary
there are laws in So Fla to keep the lights off for the turtles...if you
live on the beach during the season when they hatch, you have to keep your
lights off.  It confuses them and they walk across roads and get squashed...
I am not a huge fan of the Earth Day stuff - we are quite the recyclers and
I am always on the kids to turn off lights, or turn of the water or
whatever...
I pick up trash and always clean after myself wherever I go  - if folks
would just not be pigs on a daily basis it would have a much greater impact
then some arbitrary Earth day.  I get disgusted by what I see - pretty much
every day.  How do you just toss a dirty diaper in a parking lot?  Or let
the water run for no reason - there are so many ways to be responsible, and
folks just don't do it.
Most folks are just plain ass lazy.
Sean
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 4:31 PM, Ed Needham  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Sean M. Cary
Major USMC
Tempus Fugit, Memento Mori
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73) From: John Brown
we have hat same type of law here in Tucson for the same reasons..  just 
a few more observatories.
Ed Needham wrote:
<Snip>
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74) From: Aaron
25 miles a day, uphill in the snow, both ways....  :: yawn::
Aaron
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75) From: Aaron
Train your rotten lazy kids, and yourself while yer at it to turn the 
lights off when you leave a room, then you won't have to worry about the 
2KwH a year wasted electricity.  Use the money saved on something 
useful, like paying on that failing mortgage you were suckered into 
taking.  Or quit drinking espresso, those machines are energy guzzlers.  
Between the two that's 2.5 liters of cow farts that don't need to be 
released into the atmosphere.  I hear the spotted owls sighing a hoot of 
relief right now.
Aaron
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76) From: Jeff
So how do you justify our government bailing out Bear Stearns to the 
tune of 31 billion taxpayer dollars? Why don't they practice what they 
preach, and give it back? Why don't you practice what you preach and 
write you congressmen, letters to the editor, etc.? Send me a copy, and 
I'll believe you're sincere. I'll put a signature on all my post that 
says "Arron is sincere", too!
What do you have to say about tens of thousands of American corporations 
moving their headquarters overseas to avoid taxes? Is that how they show 
their patriotism?
Warren Buffet pays his taxes honestly. He said that secretary's on his 
payroll pay a bigger percent of their income in taxes than he does. 
Please do some fact-checking before you post. It cures "open mouth, 
insert foot" disease.
There are foolish, stupid, vulnerable people in this world. I can think 
of a few dozen I could talk out of their money. Does that make it OK to 
rip them off? It's the victim's fault?
If women didn't wear purses, they wouldn't get them stolen or snatched. 
Should we just tell them "you should have known better" and let the perp 
off the hook? It can be said of many victims that "they should have 
known better."
Using your logic we'd have to close most of our prisons! On the other 
hand, using your logic would destroy our country, so someone else would 
have to close them. Since we're not using our Constitution any more we 
should just sell it and give the money to Bear Stearns?
I love sincere, intelligent discussion, Arron. It would be wonderful to 
hear you say something that wasn't taken directly from the right-wing 
psychos of right wing radio and fixed news. Like maybe an original 
thought? Just because you like to hear the same thing over, and over, 
and over, and over, and over again doesn't mean everyone else does, too.
Aaron wrote:
<Snip>
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77) From: sci
That's right! But, I think maybe the Earth Hour might impress some
impressionable minds to be more conscious and stop being lazy.
One of my pet peeves on the environment is the billions of cigarette butts
that litter every road and intersection in NC. NC still has very high
smoking rate. I have seen lazy ass people stop at a red light and empty an
ash tray full of cigarette butts on the street! There bucket fulls floating
in the rain. Disgusting!
People just need to stop being lazy and use common sense. Every light bulb
in my house is a compact florescent energy saver and I'm about to switch to
LEDs that use about 100 times less energy than a standard incandescent bulb.
Plus, LED's will last longer than I will live so they will definitely save
lots of $$ after they quickly pay for themselves.
For what it's worth...
Ivan
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
there are laws in So Fla to keep the lights off for the turtles...if you
live on the beach during the season when they hatch, you have to keep your
lights off.  It confuses them and they walk across roads and get squashed...
I am not a huge fan of the Earth Day stuff - we are quite the recyclers and
I am always on the kids to turn off lights, or turn of the water or
whatever...
I pick up trash and always clean after myself wherever I go  - if folks
would just not be pigs on a daily basis it would have a much greater impact
then some arbitrary Earth day.  I get disgusted by what I see - pretty much
every day.  How do you just toss a dirty diaper in a parking lot?  Or let
the water run for no reason - there are so many ways to be responsible, and
folks just don't do it.
Most folks are just plain ass lazy.
Sean
To: homeroast,      "Ed Needham"
       
Message-ID:
       
Content-Type: text/plain; charsetO-8859-1
there are laws in So Fla to keep the lights off for the turtles...if you
live on the beach during the season when they hatch, you have to keep your
lights off.  It confuses them and they walk across roads and get squashed...
I am not a huge fan of the Earth Day stuff - we are quite the recyclers and
I am always on the kids to turn off lights, or turn of the water or
whatever...
I pick up trash and always clean after myself wherever I go  - if folks
would just not be pigs on a daily basis it would have a much greater impact
then some arbitrary Earth day.  I get disgusted by what I see - pretty much
every day.  How do you just toss a dirty diaper in a parking lot?  Or let
the water run for no reason - there are so many ways to be responsible, and
folks just don't do it.
Most folks are just plain ass lazy.
Sean
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78) From: Aaron
Jeff wrote:  Blaaah.... ad nauseum.
So your far left wing propoganda is somehow supposed to be better than 
my right wing propoganda?   Go drink your lithium milkshake and watch 
for them black helicopters with the H for Haliburton on the side of 
them.  Better double up on the tinfoil hat there too bud.  Oh by the 
way, can you show me any valid links for YOUR data?   Wow the 
moonbattery shows no ends.  But you are entertaining at least, I will 
give you that much, kind of like a cockatoo or a parakeet, only higher 
maintenance and less well behaved.
Aaron
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79) From: Aaron
Ivan, thats even more crap there with the flourescent bulbs.
Yes they ARE cheaper to use, yes they DO use less electricity BUT they 
contain mercury.  That EVIL metal that the rest of the corporations get 
castrated for even speaking out loud of, yet all the sudden, now that it 
fits neatly into their little brain washing,  oh it's perfectly ok now 
to have it in your house,  then throw the bulb in the trash with the 
rest of the landfill bound garbage.. no sweat, THAT mercury doesn't 
count as pollution, because it fits our cause.... kind of...
Regular flourescent tubes contain mercury as well.  people are supposed 
to... dispose of them properly (for those educated in a government 
school, this means to NOT throw them into the trash)... but that rarely 
happens, and most end up in the garbage.....
The LEDs are a very good idea there, use as you said even less 
electricity, and are fairly clean to dispose of, (except for possibly 
minute amounts of beryllium in some).  The average lifetime is about 
100K hours on them.   One warning though, they do have fairly sensitive 
electronics and need fairly tight voltage regulation, or current 
regulation, depending on how you want to look at it.  Given this, if you 
live in parts of the world where the electricity is not the best, (parts 
of jacksonville as an example) a lot of spikes, surges etc etc.. it can 
prematurely burn them out on you.  This goes for flourescents too.  
Until I ran my entire house through my UPS / Inverter and filtered the 
electricity a bit, I could not keep a flourescent bulb alive in my house 
more than 6 months to save my life... THAT gets expensive after a while 
especially at 40 bucks a pop for UV'B' Bulbs for the lizards.
Yes I do use them, but not because im 'saving the earth'  rather because 
they are cheaper in the long run.  Besides, I like what they can do to 
the power factor hittin my meter.
Aaron
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80) From: Jeff
Ahhh, even more training from the far-right psychos. "When we can' t 
refute the facts, and all else fails, drag out the ad hominem attacks."
"Original", Arron. I said "original" thoughts would be nice.
Aaron wrote:
<Snip>
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81) From: Jeff
"Yes I do use them, but not because im 'saving the earth' rather because 
they are cheaper in the long run."
"Save money, **** the earth!"
I'm glad to know that it's OK with you if I dump my used motor oil in 
your back yard.
If not, who's backyard should I dump it in? I sure don't want to pay to 
have it recycled. That would deplete my bank account.
Aaron wrote:
<Snip>
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82) From: Aaron
Once again,you speak of facts.  Provide links to yours please.
This is the last I will speak of this subject on the list.
Aaron
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83) From: Aaron
Feel free to dump your used motor oil in my back yard,by all means.  Ill 
burn it in my diesel engine which I have powering a generator.  I love 
free electricity, especially when I get to smog out the neighborhood 
making it.  Keeps the mosquito's away and kills them dreaded awful loud 
geese.
Aaron
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84) From: Jeff
I'll consider that's a good idea if you can tell me how you're going to 
get it out of the ground after I dump it in your yard.
Address, please? I've got some oil to get rid of right now.
Aaron wrote:
<Snip>
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85) From: Jeff
Which ones do you doubt, Arron? I've given you a lot, and I don't have 
time to dig up each and every one. Especially considering it's not going 
to change your mind, anyway.
I'm posting for others to see and consider, or at least be entertained. 
Not everyone shuts off their brains when they hear something that didn't 
come directly right wing radio and fixed news.
Aaron wrote:
<Snip>
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86) From: Brett Mason
Yep Jeff, that Democrat-Majority-led Congress goes bailing them out...
Tell me about your politics again?  Of course, only if it fits your slanted
perspective.
You never did condemn the LIGHTS-OUT crowd for politiking on the list, but
there again, it was self serving....
Truly amazing...
Brett
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 9:03 PM, Jeff  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Brett
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87) From: miKe mcKoffee
A RIGHT upper cut, a LEFT jab, a RIGHT jab, a Left cross, a RIGHT hook, a
LEFT over hand... Been entertaining banter much like sometimes transpires in
brick & mortar coffee houses, and has since their earliest inceptions in
Europe.
But good thing Tom doesn't enforce his List rules!
"Off topic posting is discouraged, but if it is a spinoff of a
coffee-related thread, please use the subject line convention "OT". OT is
meant, as they say on the stage, as an "aside." People who consistently
start off topic threads or don't properly label off topic threads are due
for removal from the list. OT threads that have political, religious or
other flashpoint topics and have the intent to antagonize will result in the
removal of the poster." 
Score cards say so far it's a draw and no knock out in sight. Round eleven,
let the bout continue... 
Kona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
www.mcKonaKoffee.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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88) From: Paul Helbert
Interesting study - the progression from Jeff's original OT post.
-- 
Paul Helbert
So it is written. I read it on the internet, so it has to be true.
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89) From: Jim Gundlach
Jeff,
     You have my sympathy, but some people are beyond having a  
reasonable conversation with.   I've found the list much more  
enjoyable since I just delete every post by Aaron and Brett before  
even reading the subject.  If a post is by someone else, I check the  
subject to see if I'm interested.
      pecan jim
On Mar 30, 2008, at 9:03 PM, Jeff wrote:
<Snip>
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90) From: Brett Mason
Lights Out Pity Party for the two of you....
Suggested topics:
  How the nasty right wing is destroying this list;
  How another hour of no-lights would help the world that much more;
  Why Conservative Politics are the ones that shoudl be deleted from this
list;
  How the Conservatives manipulated the Liberal Congress to bail out Bear
Stearns;
  The truth on Global Warming, and other Fairy Tales.
You probably have more, but that should help...
Cheers,
Brett
Someone tell Jim I commented, because he already deleted this in his
inbox....
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 10:49 PM, Jim Gundlach 
wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Brett
  If I am not causing you to think, then I am letting you down.
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91) From: Michael Mccandless
My 4.7 Gal tank will get me to work for 2+weeks.
McSparky
On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Brett Mason  wrote:
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92) From: Brett Mason
My 12 gal tank gets me to work and home for about two weeks too...  Thanks
for helping our planet in a very meaningful way!  And I bet you enjoy the
ride too!
Brett
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 11:11 PM, Michael Mccandless 
wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Brett
  If I am not causing you to think, then I am letting you down.
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93) From: Michael Mccandless
All year.
Drove the car 10 miles last year (emissions).
McSparky
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 9:16 PM, Brett Mason  wrote:
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94) From: Brett Mason
OK, so you only drove 10 miles.  Big Deal.
Did you turn out the lights for the hour?
That's what matters...
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 11:30 PM, Michael Mccandless 
wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Cheers,
Brett
  If I am not causing you to think, then I am letting you down.
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95) From: Michael Mccandless
No.
My computer handles the lights.
McSparky
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 9:32 PM, Brett Mason  wrote:
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96) From: Sandy Andina
to keep this on topic, I turned off Silvia before 8 pm.....
On Mar 30, 2008, at 11:32 PM, Brett Mason wrote:
<Snip>
Sandy Andina
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
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