HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Adventures in Behmor Roasting #6 (33 msgs / 860 lines)
1) From: Rick Copple
Well, knowing my adventurous spirit, I decided today I would review the 
directions in the manual, because I was a little iffy on the A-D time 
things, as to how they related to the rest of the settings.
Reviewing the notes in there, I noticed that each letter corresponded to 
a roast profile, the D doing double duty. I stared at the P5 setting, 
labeled good for Hawaiian coffee. I just received a pound of Purple 
Mountain Kona. I had thought maybe I would try another bean on that 
setting before risking my more expensive coffee on it, but today I felt 
like throwing all caution to the wind. Why not follow the instructions? 
What a novel idea!
The recommended setting for an island coffee is P5, D, and hit the + 
button twice to add on 30 seconds. If I let that go all the way, 
according to the instructions, it would take me to 2nd crack, assuming 
similar voltage to Joe's tests.
Naturally, I didn't want to take these babies to 2nd crack, so I 
recalled the approximate time between first and second, and decided I 
would endeavor to hit a city+, maybe on the verge of FC would be fine.
Toss the pound in, hit the 1# button, P5, D, ++ and Start. Away they 
went. Or, maybe I should say, around and around they went.
I believe that started the roast out at 23:30, if I recall. I watched 
them roast away. About 4 minutes till shut down, first crack started, 
and this time I didn't shut the machine off! I decided I would cut it at 
2 minutes till. But, I ended up at 1:30 left on the timer when I decided 
to hit the cool button. Looking back, I would have been more fully into 
a city+ if I had gone with 2 minutes, but I wanted to make sure, and 
honestly, the dark chocolate at the FC roast level sounded appealing.
After cooling, I believe I ended up with a city+ right on the verge of 
FC. Maybe just slightly over into FC land. But at least on the upper 
edge of city+. I'll probably be able to tell better once I brew it and 
drink. But the beans look good, it all went as planned this time, and I 
expect to have a wonderful pound of Kona to enjoy this coming week.
I realized something I had said earlier. This is more like instrument 
flying. Sight doesn't do a lot of good, at least until I can get a feel 
for what they look like under red lights at the various stages of a 
roast. All I have sensory-wise is sounds, and to some extent smell (but 
for me, that's too ambiguous...I don't know what every bean smells like 
when it's done, and I have a limited number that I roast more than a 
couple pounds of). So, I need to trust the instruments more. If I had 
done that with the last P2 roast, it would have been fine. In this case, 
it worked. The roast went as planned with the desired results.
Now that I have a better idea of the time settings (A-D) in how they 
relate to the rest of the settings, I think it will work out better. 
Once I get a good feel for those, then I can start experimenting with 
adjusting the legs to accomplish specific tasks.
-- 
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2) From: Rich
It is very important to remember that the Behmor manual was written by 
an engineer.  It is crystal clear if you are also an engineer (or 
acceptable substitute), if you are not then it is just words on a page. 
  There is so much information packed onto each page it is difficult to 
assimilate.
You seem to have discovered the secret.  You do not need the light, time 
and cracks will do it, nicely.
Rick Copple wrote:
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3) From: Bob Hazen
Bzzzzt!  Wrong answer!  :-)
I >am< an engineer and the manual isn't crystal clear to me!  I talked with 
Joe some time back.  He acknowledged the manual was in need of a re-write.
Bob

4) From: Eddie Dove
Since I never got to finish the Aerospace Engineering program, would
that make me an acceptable or unacceptable substitute?
If one does not qualify as an engineer (or acceptable substitute),
should they refrain from purchasing a Behmor?  Should vendors warn
potential buyers, "Purchase at your own risk.  You may not understand
the manual. Engineering degree (or acceptable substitute) preferred."
Shall Joe Behm instantiate an application process in which the Behmor
will be sold only to those that are engineers (or acceptable
substitute)?
The Behmor is a good roaster for a great many people at a very good
price point.  Many people thoroughly enjoy the automation of the
Behmor and produce coffee that they consume with great delight.  I
would venture to guess that those individuals read the manual and even
understood it; perhaps a generous percentage of those individuals
aren't even engineers (or acceptable substitute).  Hopefully, those
that aren't engineers (or acceptable substitute), that were
considering the purchase of the Behmor, and even more Sweet Maria's
coffee, won't reconsider their purchase.  Newcomers to home roasting
can get good results quickly with the Behmor.
If you deem that I am not an "acceptable substitute," shall I refrain
from further use of my Behmor until I finish my degree?  Please
advise.
Eddie
-- 
Docendo Discimus
Home Coffee Roasting Blog and Referencehttp://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 7:26 PM, Rich  wrote:
<Snip>
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5) From: Bonnie Polkinghorn
I graduated with a degree in EE (a long, long time ago), and I still
don't understand the manual.  It's the combo of percentages and times
that I don't get.  I would like the examples to use real times, not
percentages.
Like, if you set it for 1 lb at P2 and set the time for 18 minutes
before start, how much time at each level.   I can understand this.  I
can also understand how much time at each level if you end the roast
before the full time is up.
If you set it for 1lb at P2, set the time for 16 minutes, and add 2
minutes after 1 minute, how much time at each level?
And, if you set it for 1 lb at P2 and set the time for 16 minutes and
add 2 minutes after 10 minutes, what would the times be?
I do understand if you add time at the very end of the roast, you are
lengthening the very last stage.
I would like these examples for each P2,3,4,5.
The percentages is what drives me to drink - more coffee, of course.
Bonnie P.
On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Rich  wrote:
<Snip>
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6) From: John Despres
That settles it. I'm not buying a Behmor. I am neither an engineer or an =
acceptable substitute. The directions for the Gene Cafe are very simple, =
so I'll stick with that one.
Thanks for the heads up, Rich
John
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e.com
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/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
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-- =
John A C Despres
Hug your kids
616.437.9182
Scene It All Productions 
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7) From: Rich
I believe you are referring to the abundantly (not) clear Part V.8, yes? 
   I will take a shot at a more detailed explanation later today (Sunday).
If any of the other individuals who have the answers to these questions, 
feel free to share.  I know you are out there...
Bonnie Polkinghorn wrote:
<Snip>
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8) From: Floyd Lozano
There is an abundance of people on this list that are quite pleased
with the Behmor, both it's operation and the support they receive.
The manual is available on the website, so you can make the decision
yourself as to whether it's too complicated or not.http://www.behmor.com.  I encourage people to do so.
On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 8:36 AM, John Despres
 wrote:
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9) From: Bob Hazen
Yes, yes.  Floyd is correct.  You can decide for yourself.  IMNHO, the 
manual in no way detracts from the useability and performance of the Behmor. 
Certainly, it's not a deciding factor in picking a roaster.  One still needs 
to get hands-on experience with any roaster that no manual can address.  On 
top of that Joe Behm has shown he is very accessible and will answer 
questions.
Bob

10) From: Alchemist John
Have you actually read the manual John?  I find it funny you would 
decide based on the impression someone else has of the 
manual.   Granted most people buy items based on reviews, but the 
positive seem to way out weigh the negative.
Oh, and for the record, Joe is not an engineer and he is who wrote 
the manual.  FYI.
At 05:36 4/13/2008, you wrote:
<Snip>
John Nanci
AlChemist at large
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11) From: Eddie Dove
Yes, yes.  Floyd and Bob are correct.  There are also lots of
accessible, people on this list that willingly and helpfully share.
And John ... anyone that can learn to use the Gene Cafe and produce
great coffee (like I personally know you have) after reading the
Konglish in the Gene Cafe manual, can certainly understand the Behmor
manual and make great coffee with it.
Eddie
-- 
Docendo Discimus
Home Coffee Roasting Blog and Referencehttp://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 10:05 AM, Bob Hazen  wrote:
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12) From: Rick Copple
Bonnie Polkinghorn wrote:
<Snip>
I didn't see any examples in there, perhaps that aspect is what is 
missing for you? After all, figuring a percentage doesn't take anything 
more than a middle school, high school at most, "degree".
<Snip>
Going by what appears to be the percentages on the graphs, p16:
0 to 100% power: 20% of time: 18 * .2 = 3.6 minutes
At 100% power (482%): 20% to 60%, or 40% of time: 18 * .4 = 7.2 minutes
At 70% power (374 degF): 60% to 90%, or 30% of time: 18 * .3 = 5.4
At 100% power (482 degF): 90% to 100%, or 10% of time: 18 * .1 = 1.8
So, it would be:
0 to 100%: 3.6 minutes
at 100%: 7.2 minutes
at 70%: 5.4 minutes
at 100%: 1.8 minutes
Total roast time: 18 minutes
<Snip>
0 to 100%: 3.2 minutes
at 100%: 6.4 minutes
at 70%: 4.8 minutes
at 10%: 1.6 + 2 = 3.6 minutes
Total roast time: 18 minutes
<Snip>
If I'm understanding correctly, same as above, cause adding and 
subtracting only lengthen and shorten the last leg once you start the 
roast, no matter when during the roast you add it.
<Snip>
That would be true any time after you hit the start button. Adding time 
before hitting the start button increases the overall time of each leg 
based on the percentage. After hitting the start button, you can only 
affect the last leg of the roast.
<Snip>
While I agree, a few examples might help to make it clearer for some 
folk, it isn't too hard to figure out if you really want to know those 
approximate times.
Well, in general to this thread I started, apparently by reading the 
manual, I'll say this. Could the manual have been written better? Yeah, 
probably. I've done some tech writing before, and I know how I would 
have organized the data that might have made it more accessible for 
some. And yes, some examples like the above usually would help make it 
clearer.
That said, and I'm sure Joe will be improving that aspect, I didn't find 
the manual hard to understand. Is there a lot of data to assimilate? 
Yes, and that's why I went back to review the A-D time settings, to see 
if I could relate them to the overall scheme of the roasting. I had 
either forgotten it when I read it the first time (I did study the 
manual on-line before my Behmor ever arrived). But the info is there, 
and in an understandable format if you take the time to read it. I have 
no trouble understanding how to roast with it.
My problems have been more due to forgetting certain things, and simply 
learning how to roast with a new machine. Very little that I read did I 
feel like I needed any kind of degree to understand and apply what was 
in the manual.
I think that feeling comes more from the number of possibilities you 
have to chose from in how to set up the roast. But, the key is, you can 
make it as simple or complex as you want. There are standard settings 
you can use that will apply to most beans. There are simple instructions 
on p11 that tell you what buttons to push to use these settings. I used 
the standard setting for P5 and it came out exactly as the manual said 
it would. No one needs a degree to read: Push the "1# button", next, 
push the P5 button, now push...
The only ambiguous issue there is the hard bean/soft bean description. 
Even after homeroasting for four years, I had not run across those 
descriptions before. If I did, I'd forgotten them. Considering that part 
of the hope is that this will gain mass market appeal, language would 
need to be used that would be more easily accessible to the average 
person, like "High Grown" and "Low Grown" which pretty much everyone can 
understand what that means. How to know whether a particular bean is 
high or low grown is another issue that needs to be addressed, if one is 
to pick the right profile. Sometimes we know that when it is labeled 
"1500 meters" coffee bean, other times it might not be so obvious.
Actually, I think if examples of certain kinds of beans could be given 
for each profile, like P3 and P5 both have types of coffee listed, 
Brazilian for P3, island coffees for P5, that would be more user 
friendly even though maybe not as precise in some instances.
That said, I found most of it perfectly understandable. And, I'm not an 
engineer either. I do bookkeeping, no degree in accounting, but on the 
whole, I had no difficulty understanding what it said, aside from a 
couple examples like the above where I had to learn on my own what was 
meant.
But I certainly wouldn't say that the manual would be a cause for anyone 
to not order this machine. I'm no poster boy for having difficulty *due 
to the manual* but my difficulty has all been operator error due to, if 
anything, not following the manual as closely as I should have.
BTW, my Purple Mountain Kona had a very nice citrus note to it, dark 
chocolate in the background some, but the citrus and floral notes 
dominated. I believe I hit city+ pretty much dead on. The P5 setting 
seemed to work very well for this Island coffee, exactly as the manual 
stated it would. Cool!
And that's one key test of any set of instructions. When you follow 
them, do you get the expected results? In my case, I did.
-- 
Rick Copplehttp://www.rlcopple.com/Homeroast mailing list
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13) From: miKe mcKoffee
Rick, great detailed  post on how to use the manual to effectively use the
Behmor. Only problem I saw was your assumption or assertion everyone can do
simple High School level math! Unfortunately all too often I see in real
life it's not the case.
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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14) From: Bonnie Polkinghorn
Hello Rick,
I didn't realize that adding or subtracting after the start of the
roast only affected the last leg of the roast.  That clears up a lot
of my questions.   I had these wild ideas that were extremely too
complex.
Thank you for taking the time to explain it.
I love my Behmor.  Just because I don't understand exactly how it
works and how it exactly divides the time, doesn't mean I don't enjoy
having it.  I also enjoy learning more and more about how it works,
and I do appreciate the folks on this list taking the time and
patience to explain things.  Hopefully, by understanding more how it
works, one can learn to roast even better.
My (1.00 - .99) *6 / 3 cents
Bonnie P.
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15) From: Paul Helbert
On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 12:16 AM, Bonnie Polkinghorn <
bonnie.polkinghorn> wrote:
<Snip>
I'm not sure that is correct. My understanding is that it adds or subtracts
time to the last leg at the expense of the next to last leg, thus changing
both of them. Do I have that wrong?
-- 
Paul Helbert
Prepackaged, roasted & ground coffee,,,
Some of the worst ideas since sliced bread.
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16) From: Dennis Ryan
the legs are based on percentages.
If you change time before hitting start, the legs are altered  
proportionally
If you change the time after you hit start, the time is appended to  
the end, without changing the other legs.
On Apr 14, 2008, at 9:04 AM, Paul Helbert wrote:
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17) From: Rich
This small fact is the cause of the confusion.  The manual explains how 
changing the time allocated to the last leg, time changed after start of 
roast impacts the percentage of each leg.
The simple answer is as stated below, roast time additions or deletions 
  from the default that are made before start impact all three segments 
proportionately.  Time additions or deletions made after start of the 
roast impact only the last segment.
All of this may be expressed as a percentage change in the total roast 
or just time, depends on how you want to look at it.
Also, note that selecting A,B,C, or D will impact all three segments of 
the roast.  Same effect as adding timee with the + button before start 
of the roast.
Dennis Ryan wrote:
<Snip>
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18) From: True, Dennis W. FC1 (CVN69)
Great To know!!!!!
I hope to have my Behmor soon and I will keep this email for refrence
Thanks!
Dennis

19) From: Bonnie Polkinghorn
I just found something interesting, there is a new - to me - Behmor
manual online.
It is totally different than the one I received with my machine, which
I received on 12/25/07, thank you Santa.
I have not had a chance to read this new manual, but it is available
to download from the behmor.com website.
It looks to have a lot more information than the one I have.
John, I don't want to be the cause of someone not purchasing the
Behmor because I am dense and can't wrap my head around some numbers.
I know you were refering to Rich's email, but I feel guilty about your
decision, too.
Bonnie
On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 5:36 AM, John Despres
 wrote:
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20) From: Rich
Th fog lifts.  Check the graphs of the profiles in the back.  All will 
be clear.
Bonnie Polkinghorn wrote:
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21) From: Dennis Ryan
The graphs online are also more detailed.
On Apr 14, 2008, at 11:11 AM, Rich wrote:
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22) From: Dave Ehrenkranz
Huh,
I just checked the Behmor site and the only thing new I see is a two  
page update (Manual Updates 02.06.08) which answers some questions and  
gives some maintenance tips. The manual is the same one I got in  
November with the unit and downloaded online (version 3.3) in  
November. I do recommended the manual as it is easier to read because  
the manual that came with the unit has small print.
But if there is a newer manual where are people finding it?
dave
On Apr 14, 2008, at 8:33 AM, Dennis Ryan wrote:
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23) From: Rich
Dave, I believe that is the manual they are referring to, the 3.3 
version.  As it is in .pdf format you can expand any given page or 
section of a page and that makes the profile graphs easier to read and 
interpret.
Dave Ehrenkranz wrote:
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24) From: Dennis Ryan
nohttp://behmor.com/roasterheat_specifications.htmlOn Apr 14, 2008, at 10:13 PM, Rich wrote:
<Snip>
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25) From: Dave Ehrenkranz
Thanks for the link. BUT these graphs are the same as in the manual.  
Maybe it is just easier to read/see in the PDF version which you can  
download from Behmor site http://behmor.com/manual.html).If you  
click where is says "Click Here" you will download the complete manual  
(version 3.3) or you can also download the individual chapters (I thru  
V). Manual Updates 02.06.08 are new to me.
dave
On Apr 14, 2008, at 7:31 PM, Dennis Ryan wrote:
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26) From: Jim Anderson
I may have missed it in the original manual, but I see that it is now
recommended to wait an hour between roasts. Is this an addition or has it
always been this way?
Jim
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27) From: Dennis Ryan
Maybe there's something funny with my cache or something. when I  
click on them I see other data such as %power at %time of roast.  
danged cookies, must delete.
On Apr 14, 2008, at 10:49 PM, Dave Ehrenkranz wrote:
<Snip>
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28) From: Dave Ehrenkranz
Not sure but I have not waited an hour between roasts. The most I have  
ever roasted consecutively has been two roasts. But if you count the  
"cleaning" cycle as a roast I guess I have done three consecutive  
roasts.
I just searched the PDF version of the manual for "hour" and then for  
"between" and I did not find it. So my guess is this is something new.  
Most likely to emphasize that this is a personal roaster NOT a  
commercial roaster.
The most I have ever roasted consecutively has been two roasts. But if  
you count the "cleaning" cycle as a roast I guess I have done three  
consecutive roasts.
dave
On Apr 14, 2008, at 7:53 PM, Jim Anderson wrote:
<Snip>
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29) From: Rich
Not a cookie problem.  It is an embedded Java script.  When it runs the 
graph opens in another window with the power level and percent listed. 
There is nothing on the page to suggest that the graph is clickable for 
more details however.  I just took the ones in the pdf manual and blew 
them up so I could scale them.  Works fine.  I was going to build a 
spread sheet of all of the times and power level variations but someone 
else said they were already doing that so I saw no point in duplicating 
the effort.  Still waiting.........
Dennis Ryan wrote:
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30) From: Rick Copple
miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>
Ha, you're right there. If I made that assumption, it wasn't 
intentional. I was just assuming the educational level of *this list* 
was probably much higher than the general public, which even that 
assumption may not be true in all cases.
But, that said, the math there is fairly basic to figure it out.
But, Bonnie's confusion apparently was concerning what affect adding 
time after start did, which I admit some of the wording in places makes 
it seem like you can adjust more than the last leg, but in reality is 
only talking about how to proportionally change the first and middle leg 
in relation to the last leg by stretching or shortening them all before 
hitting start, and then shortening or lengthening the last leg again 
after start.
That's where with a manual, I would have the simple "Here's how to get 
started" section first, and then a second "Advanced User" section for 
those who wanted to learn how to fine tune it further than the basic 
pre-programmed profiles. That way your average guy could assimilate the 
simpler info, and later get into the more advanced if he/she wanted, or 
just leave it alone. That narrows the amount of info needed to use it 
for those just trying to get started with it.
And, on the reference to one hour between roast, since I recently 
received mine, I have no idea if it was missing before, but it was in my 
manual. Generally, I simply do one roast a day, Two days, I have two 
pounds and that lasts me a week or just over. I figure there's no reason 
to push it back-to-back, and if it will help the machine to last longer, 
why not?
-- 
Rick Copplehttp://www.rlcopple.com/Homeroast mailing list
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31) From: Michael Dhabolt
Rick,
Sounds like you've talked yourself into a project:
<Snip>
After all - you do have the skills.  Looking forward to the product.
Monkey Madness indeed !! ;~)
Mike (just plain)
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32) From: Lynne
And that, my dear Rick, is where you made your wrong assumption. You assumed
that the equation,
Higher Education = Basic High School Math Ability
is correct.
It is not.
;>})
Lynne
(who may, someday, tackle her math phobia... perhaps..)
Rick Copple  wrote:
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33) From: Rick Copple
Michael Dhabolt wrote:
<Snip>
Sure, if I got paid for it. :D
<Snip>
Someone's been sampling the short stories, I take it. ;)
At least the Behmor wasn't designed by monkeys. Who knows what they 
would do to that to take over the world.
-- 
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