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Topic: Good beans, Bad coffee--VacuVin (19 msgs / 458 lines)
1) From: sci
Paul,
Re: Chocolate. If you have a Yemeni, especially SM's new Ismaili, try it at
FC, rest it for 3 days: Chocolate H-Bomb. I gave this to a friend of mine
and he tasted the chocolate. This is why Mohka has come to mean "chocolate"
in most people's vocabulary even though there's no relation other than
similar flavor. Toward the bottom of the cup, I can barely tell that I'm
drinking coffee. In fact, hot chocolate puts me to sleep, and so does this
stuff. I have drank a big mug and had to put it down because I was dozing
off to sleep.
miKe,
Like you I love roasting coffee from anywhere it is grown. I grew up in
Mexico and was around coffee at every stage of production. I remember
smelling coffee roasting on homemade clay griddles over an open fire. This
was coffee raised on the mountain behind the house; all of it DP. Within one
month of roasting dozens of origins, I was inexorably and irresistibly drawn
to Yirgs/Sidamos, especially the DPs. Sure, I love a balanced Central or
anything really. But I always keep a batch of Yirg C to C+ around for at
least one cup a day. The world looks rosier from behind a mug of Yirga
Cheffe!
Vicki,
If you have chance to pick up some Vacu Seal bags for $5 they get nearly all
air away from the bean. The bag collapses and conforms to the beans, thus
eliminating all the space that air can occupy. I have vacuum jars, but even
when you pull a hard vacuum on the jar, there's lots of empty space in
there, hence more oxygen atoms to react and oxidize your precious beans.
Ivan
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 18:29:58 -0400
From: "Paul Helbert" 
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Good beans, bad coffee,        and the elusive (to
       me) blueberry
To: homeroast
Message-ID:
       <6e31221f0804271529g4a389bd2le185d991a482841e>
Content-Type: text/plain; charsetF-8
All these differences in tasters! I smell rather than taste the
blueberries, enjoy the centrals and have yet to taste anything I'd
call "chocolate" in my coffee. I have thirty varieties in my stash.
Which ones do folks find to be "chocolate bombs" and at what roast
levels?
--
Paul Helbert
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2) From: raymanowen
"I have vacuum jars, but even when you pull a hard vacuum on the jar,
there's lots of empty space in there, hence more oxygen atoms to react
and oxidize your precious beans."
I have jars too, and the CO2 evolved by the fresh roasted coffee beans
displaces the less-dense O2 molecules. Regardless of the pressure, even in
interstellar space no volume exists in which there is no matter.
The famous Hard Vacuum is only a relative term here on the planet. CO2 is
always more dense than O2 molecules. As the CO2 evolves, it fills the jar to
overflowing, pushing out the O2 molecules. Treat the coffee beans like
Gherkins in a pickle jar. Don't pour the beans [and the CO2] out, but dip
the beans out and take advantage of Physics.
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?
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3) From: kevin creason
On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 1:05 AM,  wrote:
<Snip>
hmmm, ray as usual you spark some interesting thoughts. Most get discarded
as this one most assuredly will also, but I have to throw it out there:
There's a couple of huge vacuum chambers at the Johnson Space Center, just a
couple of buildings away from me. Now I'm not saying store roasted coffee in
the chambers-- it'd be hard to roast that much!-- but I'm thinking some
people interested in some real figures could write up a request for a
study-- how much gas is emitted by roasted coffee? Roast it, lock it up
under vacuum, and measure what comes out.
How about another study? Design a solar roaster for use outside the Station,
see how coffee roasts IN a vacuum. The only problem then would be the
astronauts on board for six months with the worst coffee you can imagine.
You know there would be some grinding going on in weightlessness and that
dust would probably ruin some equipment. Oh, and talk about a profile-- have
to look at their very rapid orbit and see how long they are facing sol and
design roaster and capacity to roast in that timespan.
-- 
-Kevin
/* Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you
with experience. */
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4) From: raymanowen
Kevin, I've thought about roasting submerged in a fluid other than air. The
traditional process has always involved Oxygen-infested atmosphere, maybe
with CO2-enhanced combustion products.
Maybe the green coffee beans could be held for a period of time in a bell
jar at reduced pressure, with CO2 introduced to achieve atmospheric pressure
equilibrium.
The roasting could take place at 1atm pressure in a CO2-rich closed loop,
with CO2 as the fluid. Normal roasting takes place with the beans tumbling
in a hot fluid within some kind of container: Heated air in a drum, popper,
bread maker's pan, deep bowl or whatever.
At the elevated temperature of roasting, the oxygen present reacts more
rapidly with the coffee bean's hydrocarbons. As things stand now, staling
gets a running start.
Drum roasting could be attempted in a bell jar or chamber. Then you have two
minor problems:
1.) - No transmission medium for sound in a vacuum, couldn't hear the
cracks;
2.) - IR radiation could be directed at the drum/ beans, but how to measure
the bean temperature...
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
"Space junk" takes on new meaning when beans spill out...
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5) From: Ed Needham
I need a lab.
Maybe a Golden Retriever or two will do.

6) From: Sean Cary
you can have mine, wife got him while I was in Iraq...drives me nuts.  The
lab that is...well the wife does also.
Sean
On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:22 PM, Ed Needham  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Sean M. Cary
Major USMC
Tempus Fugit, Memento Mori
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7) From: Coffee
I'm a computer guy, not a chemist, but from my layman's perspective, I  
would think that roasting is just controlled burning which, one would  
think, requires oxygen... Of course, I wouldn't mind being corrected  
-- that's how you learn stuff ;-)
-Peter
On Apr 29, 2008, at 5:09 PM, raymanowen wrote:
<Snip>
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8) From: miKe mcKoffee
One must assume neither your lab or wife read the List or you'd be torn to
shreds!
:-)
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
<Snip>
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9) From: Ed Needham
I was under the impression that CO2 and O2 would mingle and not layer.  I 
know from beer fermentation (I have 5 gallons happily bubbling away on my 
island in the kitchen as we type) that profuse CO2 generation displaces the 
O2 in a fairly short time, but I also know that if I leave the air lock off, 
that O2 will infiltrate and spoil the beer.
OK, chemists, does CO2 and O2 stratify, or do they combine?
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

10) From: Jim Gundlach
The reactions that take place during roasting only involve the  
compounds within the bean.  And since there is water in the beans even  
after drying, some reactions involving oxygen probably do take place  
but they are very different from combustion.  Also, there may be some  
limited surface reactions but I doubt that are significant.  Oxygen  
from the air would be required for combustion once the temperature got  
high enough.  Absent oxygen at the higher temperatures my guess is  
that you would be making little charcoal beanetts.
        pecan jim
On Apr 29, 2008, at 8:13 PM, Coffee wrote:
<Snip>
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11) From: miKe mcKoffee
I would think roasting coffee requires oxygen...at least for the person
running the roaster! ;-)
Hmmm, Debi's best friend works for NASA. Maybe I should submit coffee
roasting as a future experiment... 
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
<Snip>
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12) From: John McEwan
Ed Needham wrote:
<Snip>
CO2 & O2 do stratify in brewing - Otherwise how could open fermenting 
(i.e. No top cover on the fermenter at all) be so popular in the UK and 
other places.
The Co2 is heavier than the O2 (and also air) so it displaces the air / 
O2 and provides a protective blanket for the brew.
John
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13) From: Ed Needham
OK, a little research on the subject shows a CO2 molecule has an atomic
weight of 44 (carbon, Oxygenx2).
So O2 would have an atomic weight of 32.
That means that 'thank goodness there is wind!', otherwise we would all
suffocate from CO2 while the O2 stratifies into the upper layers of the
atmosphere.
So if the CO2 is outgassing, and is not disturbed, it would form a
protective layer in a slightly sealed jar, or bag and not allow O2 to invade
unless disturbed.
Brilliant!
Seal the jar and you trap in the oxygen.  Crack it a little and it protects
the beans.  Disturb it and you start all over, with less CO2.
*********************
Ed "this ain't rocket surgery" Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

14) From: Bill
It seems that scooping beans out of a container would provide enough
agitation to move CO2 and displace with O2... while RayO's pickle analogy
makes sense, it seems like atoms would be a bit more sensitive than
cucumbers... comments?bill
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15) From: Bill
Just saw a new item on the SM website.  Any comments on the location of the
degassing valve?  It's on the bottom.  Whaddya think, would that be as
effective?  Hmmmmm...http://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.cupping-brewing.shtml#coffee_tinbill
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16) From: Jim Gundlach
OK,
    Another list induced tipping point.   I just put in a order for 4  
of the new tins and while I was at it I ordered two pounds of each of  
the Yemen coffees and half a pound of the Qishr Tea.  It will come  
slowly by UPS since the tins won't fit the flat rate boxes.  I hope  
they survive the UPS game of playing football with packages. Now, to  
go roast something.
        pecan jim
On Apr 30, 2008, at 12:45 PM, Bill wrote:
<Snip>
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17) From: raymanowen
The 12 oz. *Coffee Tin with De-Gas Valve* on the bottom is not a good plan,
IMO.
The first thing to depart the canister will be the evolved CO2. That's just
what you don't want.
Several illustrations should make the phenomenon clear- Lead-acid storage
batteries generate hydrogen gas and heat as they are charged and discharged.
They are vented, but not on the bottom.
In the laboratory, sodium metal is stored submerged in kerosene or light
mineral oil to exclude O2 from it. The metal chunks are carefully removed
from the top of the storage container to avoid POL spills. The container
doesn't have to be hermetically sealed, the sodium metal just has to stay
submerged.
Power distribution transformers get hot and are usually oil cooled. To
relieve the thermal expansion, the case is usually vented. Curiously, the
vents are never on the bottom.
Vented coffee bags should always be vented at or near the top so the O2 is
pushed overboard and the beans stay submerged in CO2.
For those that consider transferring coffee beans akin to shoveling coal, I
suggest relieving the drama and cupping 7-11 or Starbucks coffee.
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
How not to do it-
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18) From: Allon Stern
On Apr 30, 2008, at 3:36 PM, raymanowen wrote:
<Snip>
...
<Snip>
May I suggest a simple solution - invert the can.
Hmm, but then when you open the lid, all the coffee beans will spill  
out. I guess that won't work.
-
allon
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19) From: raymanowen
It would work!
Some graphics might be required- like a pictorial of several of the
canisters stored upside down in a kitty litter pan.
The hand comes down and retrieves the desired can- Arrows show the righting
of the can, removal of the lid, 1/8cup/ 1oz/ ~10g measure carefully dipping
out the desired coffee to the grinder...
Voila!
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976
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