HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Greens storage (once again) (27 msgs / 823 lines)
1) From: miKe mcKoffee
While I've been an advocate of vacuum sealing greens for over 7 years many
seem to think it's extreme and unnecessary. There's an article on greens
storage (part 1 of 2) in the current June/July Roast Magazine.
How fast can greens be destroyed by improper storage? One example from pg
64: "As an example of the delicate nature of green coffee consider this: We
took 100 grams of newly arrived Tanzanian Peaberries that registered a
moisture content of 11 percent and set it on a tray in a room with 72F and
21 percent relative humidity. In 24 hours the coffee moisture level dropped
from 11 percent to 8.5 percent. After 48 hours, it was down to 7.5 percent.
All that, in just two days."
Article also discusses what that means to the cup (which isn't good) and
much more.
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
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2) From: miKe mcKoffee
Make that May/June Roast Magazine... 
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3) From: Bill
21% RH... sounds like Cheyenne WY!!!!  Still grateful for the coolerdor idea
from a couple of guys on this list.  Been doing great, and it's real good
because it limits my stash!bill
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 10:27 AM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
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4) From: Edward Bourgeois
MiKe What do you use to measure with? Has anyone tried putting a home
digital hygrometer in a wide mouth jar or even a plastic bag with some
beans? How accurate would it be? Once determined to be the right %
range then they could then be foodsaver vacuum packed.
Ed B.
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 12:27 PM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
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5) From: John Despres
Until you buy another cooler :>)
John
Bill wrote:
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ee.com
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6) From: Tom Ulmer
Quite certainly storing greens in conditions of high and low humidity will
effect bean moisture.
At the risk of sounding like the ass that I am, how would one know that the
11% moisture content at the beginning of the example would be optimum for
that particular bean.
Furthermore a loose discussion on coffee flavors turning baggy at some point
in time is hardly anything but stating the obvious.
I believe the summary poses the question for discernable differences in
storage methods. Was anything presented at the SCAA Conference in support of
the discussion?

7) From: John Despres
I put a digital hygrometer into a new bag of beans for a 24 hour period. =
The relative humidity didn't go up all that much. This was done in the =
interest of building a bean humidor. I wasn't all that successful. It's =
interior is roughly 18 square feet and I couldn't get the RH up very =
much. But now I have a lovely cabinet with an antique glass door to =
store beans in, though.
John
Edward Bourgeois wrote:
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ee.com
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8) From: miKe mcKoffee
Yup, part two of the Roaster Magazine article is slated after their SCAA
Convention presentation/workshop. 
BTW, why do you think some COE coffees are being shipped at additional
expense vac'd from origin? Why has Tom gone to the additional expense of
shipping some select batches vac'd at origin? A whim? Just to throw money
away? I think not.
FWIW IMO the preponderance of Roast Magazine articles, written by various
seasoned respected coffee professionals, is anything but a "loose
discussion". "Knowing" the optimumal moisture level for a green is exactly
part of their professional training and gleaned from years of research.
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
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URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
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9) From: miKe mcKoffee
I don't yet, I was quoting the article. Meters for determining greens
moisture content 'taint cheap. The article mentions "cheap ones" running
IIRC $600-$1000. It may be recalled Tom didn't even have a greens moisture
meter until fairly recently. Currently I can only trust they're relatively
where they should be when I receive them and attempt to keep them
stabilized. My practice for years has been to Foodsaver vac' pack greens
right after receiving them.
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
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10) From: Ed Needham
So tell me again why we ship greens in a burlap bag?  Maybe vac sealing at 
the mill might is the best option for shipping if we could get our heads out 
of the sand and change centuries old standard practices.  Didn't Tom specify 
shrink wrapping bags for transit from one farm?
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

11) From: Tom Ulmer
My guess would be that going through the extra efforts to try and preserve
certain beans as stasis is an attempt to keep the green beans in a
particular moment. Whether the method is valid and to what ends seems open
for discussion.
A quick reference to a U.S. Army study on the preservation of coffee does
seem loose to me, particularly since my perspective (as well as yours I
believe) on the subject is most probably very different. I must say that I
enjoy my subscription to Roast and the subject article but find no evidence
to jump into the preponderance of prevailing thought.
Cheers.

12) From: Paul Helbert
While I've no doubt that vacuum bags might help preserve flavors by
creating an impervious barrier, I'm at a loss to understand any
beneficial effect of the vacuum on moisture content beyond that of a
non evacuated plastic bag or other moisture barrier. In fact, it seems
to me that the effect would be to lower the moisture content of the
beans due to the reduced partial pressure (indeed all gas pressure) of
water vapor. Once the beans out gas the water vapor necessary to
achieve equilibrium the moisture reduction would stop; but so would it
in a non evacuated bag or a bag filled with CO2 , N2 or air containing
water vapor at any given relative humidity.
Too much moisture and your beans get moldy.
Too little and they dry out. Best solution? Drink up!
-- 
Paul Helbert
Prepackaged, roasted & ground coffee,,,
Some of the worst ideas since sliced bread.
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13) From: Edward Bourgeois
I've been to a couple cuppings with George Howell, testing effects of
various shipping and storage approaches and the differences are quite
evident. He may be a bit of a fanatic when it comes to defects but the
proof is certainly in the cup.
Ed B.
-- 
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14) From: Mike Chester
miKe,
I vacuum seal my beans also and they seem to last a lot longer before 
declining in flavor.  I imagine that for the Kafe, you are buying whole bags 
of coffee.  How do you store them?  The food Saver would not be practical 
for such large quantities.  Do you simply use them fast enough that long 
term storage is not a concern?
Mike Chester

15) From: raymanowen
"...use them fast enough that long term storage is not a concern-"
Someone seriously in the coffee shop business is not in the profitless
business of long term green coffee storage. Use public storage and transfer
the burlap bags to plastic garbage cans for that.
Burlap bags are for green coffee transportation.
Iechyd da, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?
On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:51 AM, Mike Chester  wrote:
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16) From: Floyd Lozano
Vacuum sealing from origin is to protect the coffees from the harsh
storage and shipping conditions at port and in transit.  Vacuum
sealing surely has a positive effect in the home environment, but
arguably less so than during transport from origin.  I'd like to know
what the optimal storage environment is for coffee (hey, maybe it's
'total vacuum', but maybe it's pressurized N2 at some humidity in
equilibrium with the water content of the bean, I dunno).  I know Tom
doesn't vac seal every coffee he has, though he might like to!  And I
know that even months after it shows up there, and I order it and
consume it here, it's still stellar.  My advice is if you have a nasty
environment, seal your beans.
George Howell's cuppings  - you will taste the frozen, vac sealed
beans over a year old, those stored in burlap, and one other, I forget
which storage method was employed (might just be out of jute, open
air).  The cups are drastically different.  One is vibrant and fresh,
one faded and plain, and one downright nasty, tasting wooden and flat
with a musty odor.  He has other cuppings as well, comparing different
origins and processing methods.  Not all of his advice is what you'd
agree with, though the storage methods are difficult to argue with -
they just taste better!  For example, he believes the 'fruity' flavors
you find in those Ethiopian coffees, the ones imparted to the bean
during processing (partial fermentation of the fruit), are a defect.
I just happen to like the strawberry, apricot, blueberry, mango, and
other flavors I find in such coffee.  Sometimes!
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 10:56 PM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
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17) From: Jamie Dolan
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My house temperature can range from 65 to upper 70's.  I was going to
put my beans down in the basement, where it is a bit more consistently
around the upper 60's, but the humidity does get a little high.
My SM coffee is in the bags it came in, half is in the burlap and half
is in the plastic bags.
Is my house considered a "nasty environment" for beans?
Do I need to start vac sealing before all hope is lost?  (or do I need
to run the air conditioner just for my beans to keep the humidity down
;-) LOL)
Jamie
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18) From: Edward Bourgeois
The Roast mag article referenced a US military study documenting green
coffee storage that determined to maintain a 12% moisture level they
need to be stored at 77f and 60rh
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19) From: raymanowen
I see- We're talking Army Coffee here.
"...a US military study documenting green coffee storage that determined to
maintain a 12% moisture level they need to be stored at 77f and 60rh."
"60rh" is meaningless. The phrase, "...to maintain a 12% moisture level they
need to be stored at 77f and 60rh," means:
To maintain beans whose mass is 12% H2O, they must be in a 77F gaseous
environment that contains 60% of the concentration of water vapor that it
could contain at saturation.
Good. Then you'll be first on your block to have Specialty Coffee converted
to Army Coffee.
The 77F is a little warm to store green coffee over the long term IMO, a=
nd
you can depend on Burlap bags to allow free passage of moisture, temperature
and barometric pressure.
Army Coffee depends on 60% rh at 77 F, which depends on the barometric
pressure. The Burlap bags have an Open Door Policy to temperature, pressure
and moisture, so forget about the Army Coffee research with Burlap.
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 5:55 PM, Edward Bourgeois 
wrote:
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20) From: miKe mcKoffee
Contraire RayO. It's the Most serious in the coffee business who look to
stabilize premium greens between crop cycles, which is "long term" of which
I speak not multiple years. 
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
www.mcKonaKoffee.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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21) From: Edward Bourgeois
I've spent many a hot day in a burlap bag. Packing the wool from my
farm and on other farms shearing crew, we pack the wool in 8' tall
burlap bags on wool towers. You climb up throw the fleece in and then
jump down in and tamp it down around the edges. Talk about baggy
fragrance. It really is potent stuff.
-
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
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22) From: Dennis & Marjorie True
sounds like my humidor....
Do I now need to store my coffee and cigars together?
(I wasn't planning on building a walk in but I just might have to)
Dennis
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23) From: John Despres
Per everything I've looked at, cigars require a higher relative humidity =
level than the beans. Beans need an RH of about 60 - 64% and I read =
cigars need 72%. If you store together, choosing one level or the other =
you may have dry cigars or moldy greens.
In my studies for my humidor cabinet, I visited a cigar shop. Their =
cabinets as well as the walk in were kept humid with a traditional room =
humidifier. IIRC, they were using the cool steam type.
John
Dennis & Marjorie True wrote:
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24) From: miKe mcKoffee
Didn't say "preponderance of prevailing thought" (though some of the most
cutting edge professionals are using rather extreme storage methods with
premium beans) but rather said "anything but a 'loose discussion'." 
Also I do not say only vacuum sealing greens and storing at room temperature
is the optimal method, only that it has been an effective method for me and
my limited resources, not necessarily the most effective method. I do
definitely believe more effective than burlap or cotton or zip lock bags
etc. 
IMO the majority of storage methods used are outdated but remain the norm do
to costs. Similar goes for roast storage, especially in retail environments.
If roasts were stored deep frozen hermetically sealed "shelf life" would be
extreme, but costs substantial and hence it is not the "preponderance of
prevailing application" regardless the thought.
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
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25) From: Tom Ulmer
I guess I keep getting muddled up in the ends and the means. A quick analogy
would be that of a superb bottle of wine. Experience dictates that improper
storage will leave the wine undrinkable. As well, there is a limited shelf
life and there is a span of time when the desirable flavors are at the peak.
When does it become more feasible to attempt to keep a loaf of fresh baked
fresh rather than simply baking another loaf? Should the use of chemical
preservatives be used to extend the shelf life of coffee roasted or green?
Should they be gassed and kept under wraps? How does any particular method
affect the resulting cup?
Surely you find benefit from the vacuum sealing or you would not continue
the practice. For my purposes I find that air-tight storage canisters,
periodic roasting, regular consumption, and timely rotation of my greens
cabinet work fine. In the errs of my ways I've even discovered that ground
coffee stored in an air-tight container in the refrigerator for a few days
can produce outstanding espresso.
Now if I had several tons of a particular bean that I was scrambling to
market within a given window of time my attitude may not be so cavalier...

26) From: sci
I'm going with miKe on this vacuum storage issue. It seems that vacuum
storage is the uber method for storage of most commodities that are
sensitive to environment. We pay lots of $ for our precious green beans and
take many precautions. I silly 1 gal. vacuum  bag costs .50 cents and will
store 4# of beans. Moreover, the bags are reusable. Besides, I may keep a
bean for 6 months and I want it to be good when I use it.
Ivan
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 20:58:53 -0700
From: "miKe mcKoffee" 
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Greens storage (once again)
To: 
Message-ID: <003801c8b252$2a1bda70$6400a8c0>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
Contraire RayO. It's the Most serious in the coffee business who look to
stabilize premium greens between crop cycles, which is "long term" of which
I speak not multiple years.
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIhttp://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVI.htmKona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
www.mcKonaKoffee.com 
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
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27) From: Gary Raabe
Hello everyone;
I thought one was supposed to store them in cotton bags so as to not build up any moisture and cause mold. I usually take mine out of the plastic and put in cotton for that reason. Am I doing wrong? Some of my stash is 8-10 months old. I do have a food saver and could vac some when I buy larger quantities of a single bean. 
Thanks,
Gary Raabe> Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 17:18:06 -0600> From: raymanowen> To: homeroast> Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Greens storage (once again)> > "...use them fast enough that long term storage is not a concern-"> > Someone seriously in the coffee shop business is not in the profitless> business of long term green coffee storage. Use public storage and transfer> the burlap bags to plastic garbage cans for that.> > Burlap bags are for green coffee transportation.> > Iechyd da, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!> > Got Grinder?> > On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:51 AM, Mike Chester  wrote:> > > miKe,> >> > I vacuum seal my beans also and they seem to last a lot longer before> > declining in flavor. I imagine that for the Kafe, you are buying whole bags> > of coffee. How do you store them? The food Saver would not be practical> > for such large quantities. Do you simply use them fast enough that long> > term storage is not a concern?> >> > Mike Ch
 ester> >> >


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