HomeRoast Digest


Topic: P2 Is Your Friend (41 msgs / 1079 lines)
1) From: Bob Hazen
Fellow Behmor-ites:
I have an epiphany to report.  The ahah!  The Ford Lightbulb. . . .
P2 is my friend.
Awhile back Les posted some great information on how he tamed P2.  It's copied below for reference.  I worked with his approach for a while and had some good results.  Perhaps because my Behmor is hotter, or my line voltage is higher, I got quicker and darker roasts than he did.  Since then I've learned a few things.  Perhaps, it's old news to the list, but then again....
The real key to using P2 is to precisely place timing of the 100% to 70% power drop.  This occurs at 60% of the time on the clock at the start of the roast.  I've based my technique on the approach Les described, but with a tweak.  For a 1/2 lb of greens, I use P2A -1lb and then subtract some time before the roast.  I suppose it doesn't matter if you start with P2A - 1/2lb and add time; you get to the same point.  What I've been doing is running a 1/2 lb roast on P1 and determining the time that 1st crack starts - precisely - with a stop watch.  P1 is at 100% power from the beginning of the roast.  Just like P2 is up to 60% time.  This first roast happens quite quickly and you have to keep an eagle-eye on it, but I let it finish it's course.  You can do this with P2 as well, provided you get into 1st crack under full power and P2 hasn't already dropped the juice on you.
Once I know at what time 1st occurs on P1 for a given bean and weight I'm ready for a P2 roast.  I set the P2 time so that 60% of what's shown on the clock before the roast will be about 20 seconds before the time to 1st crack already determined.  This means that about 20 seconds before P2 drops from 100% to 70%, the beans should be entering 1st crack.  The roaster coasts into 70% power as 1st is getting going.  Make it 0 seconds and you hit 1st at a gallop; 20 seconds and you go in at a trot, 30 seconds and you hit 1st slowly and gently; a walk if you know horses.
The great part of this is you can stretch out 1st and the gap to 2nd.  If you go into 1st slowly though, be careful, because you can stretch things far enough to wind up hitting P2's surpass ending where it pops back up to 100% at the end of the roast.
I just finished a 1/2 pound of Sulawesi on P2A - 1lb with time subtracted to show 15:20 on the clock.  1st occurred at 9:30 and ended at 12:20, 2nd began and I hit cool at 14:30.  
Thanks Les, for pointing me down this path!
Bob

2) From: Les
Thanks for the refinement Bob.
Les
On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 3:08 PM, Bob Hazen  wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

3) From: Bill
Bob,
Don't use the Behmor, but that is a very well written summary.  Seems nice
and straight-forward for people to figure out how to stretch out the roast.
 Just roasting vicariously through you Behmorites, it seems like it is a
great intro roaster, but takes some real thinking to get it to do exactly
what you want.  Sounds like you all are doing a good job of putting it
through its paces.
nice job, Bob.
bill in wyo
On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 6:18 PM, Les  wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

4) From: Chad Sheridan
Interesting--I've been doing the same thing, but I am getting squirrelly 
results today.
Let me explain a bit.
First, I have been aiming for the same thing you've described, 
Bob--namely, timing the transition from 100% power to 70% power right 
around the start or up to 20-30 seconds into 1st crack.  The thing is, I 
am not sure that what you describe in the timing is working on my 
roaster.  For example, when I put a bit over 1/2# on the 1# setting, and 
add two minutes time for a total of 20:00 (before the roast starts), the 
roaster transitioned to 60% power at 10:48, which is 60% of 18:00.  The 
same thing occurred when I hit P2, 1#, B (which set the clock to 20:00) 
and then added two minutes (22:00 total) before the roast started.  For 
that roast, the Behmor dropped to 70% power at 12:00 (60% of a 20:00 roast).
I will have to conduct some more experiments to confirm my last day's 
observations, and then contact Joe.  This behavior is not consistent 
with the manual descriptions and everything I have read on the roaster.
More to follow as I keep experimenting.
--Chad
Bob Hazen wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

5) From: Seth Grandeau
Bob, thank you for the suggestions.  I've been trying to figure out the
proper way to use P2.  I was a little confused by part of your write up.
Are you suggesting that we should schedule the power drop to happen 20
seconds *before* 1st crack or 20 seconds *after* 1st crack starts?  I think
you are suggesting that I want the power to drop before 1st crack starts,
but I want to make sure.
Thanks again!
-Seth
On 5/11/08, Bob Hazen  wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

6) From: Bob Hazen
Uh-oh...  I hate to find typos in my posts.  However this is an important 
nuance and worth clarifying.  I intended to say that the beans should be 
entering 1st crack between zero and 30 seconds >after< (not before) the 
roaster kicks down to 70% power.  The idea being that the roaster will take 
some time to coast down to the cooler temperature.  Meanwhile, as the heat 
drops, the beans are getting going into 1st.
Sorry about the confusion, folks.
Bob

7) From: Paul Helbert
That is what I've been doing with pretty consistent results. I wonder
if Chad has variable voltage problems?
-- 
Paul Helbert
Prepackaged, roasted & ground coffee,,,
Some of the worst ideas since sliced bread.
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

8) From: Chad Sheridan
Paul Helbert wrote:
<Snip>
Paul,
I do not think so--Behmor is plugged into a variac that I've been too 
lazy to move from it's former glory of controlling my Poppery.
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

9) From: Paul Helbert
Variac! Man, I need to find one of those.
<Snip>
-- 
Paul Helbert
Prepackaged, roasted & ground coffee,,,
Some of the worst ideas since sliced bread.
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

10) From: Justin Marquez
I like both Bob and Les' suggestions!
"YABI"...
(Yet Another Behmor Idea....)
I have only got about 8 Behmor roasts under the belt so far and I am still
refining the procedure.
Load the half-pound batch (actually I load 2 cups dry measure greens, which
is very reliably 320 grams, +/- 5 grams), hit 1#, and then maximize the
allowed time. When 1st crack has been going on for about 1 to 1.5 minutes,
open the door for a minute or so, then close it and listen for second crack
to signal when to hit "COOL".
Or, if you don't want *any* C2's, just hit COOL as soon as you would have
closed the door as mentioned above.
This should work even if there are voltage variation issues, although the
elapsed time would vary.
Obviously, this is a less attractive profile if you roast indoors.
Safe Journeys and Sweet Music
Justin Marquez (CYPRESS, TX)
On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 9:17 PM, Seth Grandeau  wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

11) From: Deward Hastings
Coming to the Behmoor from a fully instrumented and fully manual controlled
Rosto was a bit of a shock.  The (potentially) larger batch size seemed an
advantage, but meant *lots* of wasted bean for every failed roast (of which
I had . . . several . . . in the beginning).  Of the built-in "profiles" P1
rushes from first crack to second, and P3 and up make no sense to me at all.
The lack of control almost made me give it up completely.  What were they
thinking . . . all those buttons with function whimsical and capricious at
best . . .
P2 is the only useful option.  Or it *would be* useful if there were some
way to reduce power on command . . . P1 with a "turn it down" button.  That
button ain't there.  The only way to make P2 work is to find some way for
the pre-programmed "turn down" to happen at first crack . . . and since
there's only a very limited range of control over when the turn down happens
one is forced to the alternative . . . control when first crack happens.
You cannot do that real time, but you can do that by adjusting batch size,
so that's what I do.
An example:  If I set initial conditions at 1 pound, P2, C, and +++  I get
to a maximum time of 22:30.  That causes the power turndown to occur at
13:30 (into the roast, not by the timer.  See Ps. below).  A full pound of
bean will not reach first crack in that time, so I reduce batch size until
it does.  For my regular "house blend" that's about 330 grams, and the roast
then goes another 4-4:30 to second crack and a manual stop . . . missing the
"power up" at the end of P2 completely (what's that there for anyway, other
than to start a bean fire?).
There's still variation between bean varieties, but I'm getting better at
guessing, and the first batch with a new (to me) bean is now more likely to
be just "not quite right" rather than blown altogether.
Ps.  I simply *hate* the countdown timer.  Since my roast is never going to
end at "0" I'm forced to remember the programmed maximum time and do mental
arithmetic every time I want to know where I am in the roast.  Or use a
separate timer, which is what I now do . . .
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

12) From: Paul Helbert
I agree, a reduce power option is needed. I also use a separate timer
which I start simultaneously. Looks like those four A,B,C,D buttons
could be used for something more useful since time is easily set
otherwise.
On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Deward Hastings  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Paul Helbert
Prepackaged, roasted & ground coffee,,,
Some of the worst ideas since sliced bread.
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

13) From: Rick Copple
Paul Helbert wrote:
<Snip>
I believe the lettered timer buttons were to aid the people in knowing 
what time went with what profile. P1 & A, P2 & B, P3 & C, P4 & D--, & P5 
& D++. Those are the settings that are supposed to bring your coffee to 
second crack if your voltage is equivalent to the voltage used in 
defining those settings, which mine must be.
For instance, the other night I roasted the Ethiopian Lima (can't recall 
if that's the name for sure), one full pound, on the settings 1#, P3, C. 
I let it run to the end, and when the cooling cycle had kicked in, it 
had just touched 2nd crack. It ended up a nice full city roast, where I 
roast most all my beans unless I have reason to change it. I think P3 
will end up being my standard setting, then moving to P1 or P2 for 
high-grown coffees and P4 or P5 for Konas (Did one pound of Kona on P5 
and it resulted in a perfect city+ roast, hitting the cool button about 
2 minutes before the end.)
But the lettered buttons make it easy to go to the right time for the 
particular profile. I hit P3, C, and I know I've got it where it needs 
to be. Unless I have reason to play around with the settings, I'm set. 
That's better than having to hit + five to ten times and remember the 
right amount of time that P3 should be set at to get to full city.
But a power reduction knob or set of buttons would be a nice addition. 
However, I did try P2 on B setting with a full pound recently, to test 
the standard time. While I didn't get a lot of pop in first crack, in 
part due to the heat going down before it fully rode into it, I think, 
it still produced a roast where I wanted, but did have to add on 30 
seconds to get it there. And the coffee came out tasty, which is what is 
really important.
And I guess I don't mind, even appreciate the count down timer. I can 
glance and know how much longer the standard setting has left. I can 
know when it gets down to 4 to 3 minutes, I should be hearing first 
crack going or something is wrong, and then can adjust the time if need 
be. And, based on the estimate that second crack will start around 3-4 
minutes after 1st gets underway, I find it easy to note when first gets 
rolling, and hit cool about 2-2.5 minutes after that for a city+ roast, 
1-1.5 for a city roast, or let it roll to 3 minutes more more for a full 
city and beyond.
So far, that has worked on virtually every setting I've tried, using the 
standard times. So for me, though I have a timer I could use, it would 
be useless to me. I find the countdown timer, personally, more of a 
benefit to track where I'm at.
-- 
Rick Copplehttp://www.rlcopple.com/Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

14) From: Paul Helbert
Good points Rick. I had not known why the A,B,C,D buttons were there
since they seemed redundant, but maybe you have hit upon the idea
behind them.
I think the count down timer thing is that many of us have gotten used
to counting up with previous (and still used) other roasting methods.
My log sheets are set up for counting up in real time, so I just use
the same old timer I've always used. My main problem may be that I am
roasting on Eastern Daylight Time and the Behmor was engineered for
Pacific Standard Time.
On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 2:11 AM, Rick Copple  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Paul Helbert
Prepackaged, roasted & ground coffee,,,
Some of the worst ideas since sliced bread.
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

15) From: Bill
Paul wrote: 
Very nice Paul.  Yes, I'm pretty sure that'll be your problem!!!
Perhaps a time vortex of some sort might help things.  Or a time machine.
 Keep us posted
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

16) From: Stephen Carey
Oh, how I thought I was getting this with just over 90 roasts, still 
a beginner by many standards, but I thought I was learning.  I read 
this and I have to dissect it to have it make sense and I am not 
stupid, but this makes me feel it.  It just shows me there is so much 
to learn.  But, darn it, I plan on learning it and getting better and better.
I do wonder what our great grandparents, roasting in some of the 
contraptions which Tom has on one of his history pages would think of 
us now, or what the cowboy on the trail roasting some beans over a 
fire and in a pan would think.  How did they get what they liked - 
did they even try or was coffee just a hot morning drink in those 
days.  I best read up on my history, eh?
Stephen
At 06:08 PM 5/11/2008, you wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

17) From: Bob Hazen
Stephen,
It's all about setting up the time P2 drops to a lower power.  I aim for the 
power drop to occur about 20 seconds before the start of first crack.  That 
drop in power occurs at 60% of the time on the clock when you start the 
roast.  If you know when 1st starts on a full power roast (i.e. P1), figure 
out your starting time needed so 60% of that time is about 20 seconds 
earlier than 1st crack.
This is working well for me.  It keeps 1st and 2nd from banging into each 
other.  1st starts gently and if I go to 2nd, it doesn't crash and burn, but 
goes in gently.
Let me know if you want me to send you a spreadsheet that shows P2 in graph 
form - easier than punching buttons on a calculator.
Are you using P2?  What tricks have you learned in 90+ roasts?  Do you 
prefer other profiles?
I also wonder what Grandpa and Grandma would think about our obsession (and 
cell phones, computers etc.).  I bet in their day that if they could get 
pre-roasted coffee, it was so state that any bean, even roasted poorly, that 
was relatively fresh would be better.  I wonder of local mercantiles did any 
roasting?
Bob

18) From: Stephen Carey
Bob, thank you for the nice note.  We are kind of on the same 
page.  First, most of my roasts were on the IR2, which I still use 
for some beans, I just like it and have it down for some roasts.
I am doing what you are doing in using P1 to know when the first 
crack starts.  I am beginning to try what I see posted here and then 
tweak them for me.  Some I just play with and see what happens.  I 
did find that I - which doesn't mean it can't be done - am not good 
at translating my IR2 profiles to a profile on the Behmor.
On the Behmor I am getting very good at the Konas, which are great 
beans.  I did my first IVM last night - after only one nights rest it 
still tasted very good.  I can't wait for a day or two and then see 
what profile I might come up with for it.  I am not afraid to try new 
things and risk the roast, I know I can at least get it to something 
better than the chain store down the street and have fun doing it - 
and the occasional fire is kind of exciting.  I have had two, one the 
beans were saved and tasted great - the fire was a bit of chaff, I 
was in the cool cycle.  I got the beans out, got them cooled and they 
were okay and the house smelled a little smokey, but like coffee and 
that is good.
The other one I think I shared about, I truly fell asleep - I had 
taken the red-eye in after a long project.  That evening, after no 
sleep I thought I would roast a Costa Rican - it became charcoal and 
hotter than I would have ever imagined it could be.  Luckily, I got 
it out of the Behmor and into our fireplace - appropriate.  That time 
the house didn't smell too good, but with no damage, but that of 
pride, done, we had a laugh and that was a good way to end a day.
I will let you know what I come up with using P2 and your 
suggestions, thank you for putting them here.
Stephen
At 08:25 PM 5/17/2008, you wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

19) From: Rick Copple
Paul Helbert wrote:
<Snip>
That makes sense. I also used a timer, but it was more of a guide than 
anything since I wok roasted. More of an art with that type of roasting, 
and I've never kept logs that much. I've had to adjust my style of 
roasting to the Behmor, since I can't see the beans as well as I could 
in the wok. More reminiscent of my popcorn roasting days.
<Snip>
lol! Good one! However, I wouldn't recommend adding three hours to your 
roasting time. ;)
-- 
Rick Copplehttp://www.rlcopple.com/Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

20) From: Paul Helbert
On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 3:01 AM, Rick Copple  wrote:
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
Good one, Rick. First good laugh of the morning. Thanks!
-- 
Paul Helbert
Prepackaged, roasted & ground coffee,,,
Some of the worst ideas since sliced bread.
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

21) From: Chad Sheridan
Bob,
I'm ~almost following that approach.  I've been having good success with 
timing the drop to 70% power about 20-30 seconds ~after~ the first pop 
of 1st crack.  Almost all of my recent sample cupping roasts have used 
this method, and it's given me repeatable results.  First crack proceeds 
relatively gently for a couple of minutes into the power drop.  Another 
one of my friends uses this same technique with similar results.
It seems that every time I've tried to time it after, the 1st crack did 
not start until several minutes after the power drop, and it was muted 
or almost non-existent.  I'll have to use your technique exactly to see 
if I had been timing the start of 1st crack more than 20 seconds after 
the drop, which may have been what was slowing things down (based on the 
taste--the roast didn't really stall).
As I wrote before, the only thing I noticed was that adding or 
subtracting time before the start of the roast was not affecting when 
the power dropped on several roasts--it continued to to drop at either 
10:48 (for an 18:00 start time) or 12:00 (for a 20:00 start time) even 
when time was added or subtracted from the base 1# or 1# with "B" 
pressed.  I haven't had the time to investigate further.
Though I've got the machine hooked up to the variac I use(d) for my 
Poppery, I've got a kill-a-watt on the way to confirm that my voltages 
are where I expect them.
Thanks for your post--you keep giving me more tweaking ideas
Chad
Bob Hazen wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

22) From: Deward Hastings
There's a lot more to the timer thing than just habit.
If you adjust your roasts (either by adjusting time or batch size) so they
end at "0"  (which means using the Behmors's built in profiles, and a bit of
luck) the countdown timer works OK, and is convenient.
The issue arises when you want to modify, or "force", a profile . . . as
with making the power reduction in P2 occur at first crack (instead of well
before first, as it otherwise does).  In that circumstance the roast will
*not* end at "0", and the countdown becomes inconvenient if not useless.
Suppose, as in the example I gave previously, that the first 'crackle" of
second was at 4:50 on the timer, and I shut down at 4:30 . . . how long was
the total roast time?  What, of any practical use, did the timer tell me
along the way?  It certainly did *not* provide useful information about when
the roast was going to end . . . if I'd waited for "0" I'd have had a BBQ.
Granted, a count-up timer doesn't tell me when the roast is going to end
either, but at least it's not dangerously misleading, and at any point along
the way it gives me results in the conventional format of "how long to
first, how long to second, how long the roast".
The Behmor seems to be engineered at almost every turn to make it difficult
to exercise any control over the roast profile.  Once the roast has started
there are no "adjustment" options except the plus/minus time buttons and
"stop".  It does not give the user useful information (that it easily could,
like time into roast, or chamber temperature, or power input), or useful
control (like power level), and that seems to be deliberate, as both could
easily have been provided at essentially no cost.  At least the horribly
long cooling time can be dealt with (by opening the door and spraying the
roast chamber with a mister) . . . but do have your exhaust fan on full when
you do it.
There's a lot to like about the Behmor, but it's a flawed tool, and we're
forever going to be talking about workarounds and "fixes" to get it to do
what we want, or to perform anywhere close to its real potential.
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

23) From: Bob Hazen
Deward brings up some good points.  We really are talking about work-arounds 
with the Behmor.  It would be great to just have a power button.  Since it's 
not there, we resort to trickery in order to get it to do what we want.  I 
suspect a great deal of the interface and pre-programmed profiles are a 
result of the ETL certification process.  Part today's business world. 
Protect you from yourself.
However, there's quite a history PID'ing espresso machines.  Perhaps some 
enterprising soul can devise a substitute controller for the Behmor.  I bet 
that there are logic-level signals in there that control the motor on/off 
and heater power settings.  It should be pretty simple for this enterprising 
soul to set up a PIC controller to control events and times on the Behmor 
via this logic interface.  Yes, this is a work-around of a greater 
magnitude.  I suppose if one wanted better temperature control, the heaters 
could be PID'd.
Hello Enterprising Soul - you out there?
Bob
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

24) From: Vicki Smith
I don't know that is a flawed tool as much as it is a $299 tool. I'm 
betting that if Joe Behm had chosen a higher price point, we'd see much 
of what we are addressing with workarounds.
v
Deward Hastings wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

25) From: Michael Dhabolt
Bob,
I've considered doing a PID # on mine. The only holdup is a person
would have to use environment temp. rather than bean temp.  A person
has a fairly considerable investment in the PID and SSR/heatsink and
Thermocouple probe necessary to do a serious job of it.  Being forced
into an environment temp as the controlling variable is a serious
compromise that may make the project, as I envision it, less
attractive. Now if a guy could open up the left side of the drum,
install rollers that the left end cap could roll on, probably have to
re-engineer the drum entirely to allow installing a bean temp TC in
from the left side ..... Hmmmmm.  Without the bean temp TC, I
seriously wonder what would have been accomplished - other than the
obvious direct and comprehensive control of the heaters.
Mike (just plain)
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

26) From: Deward Hastings
<Snip>
I'd settle for that.  I can easily put a thermometer into the roast chamber
(for what it's worth).  If the Behmor already has a temperature sensor there
should be a temperature display option.  It would be very helpful to have
control of heater *power* (Watts) in a way that makes operator control
independent of line voltage.
I like being able to hear the cracks . . . that's a great improvement over
air roasters.  I don't like not being able to do anything with the
information that provides (other than shut it off).
I like a little bit the smoke reduction . . . I don't like at all the way it
changes and obscures the "smell" of the roast.  Smell used to be a major
clue telling me how the roast is progressing.  Would removing or bypassing
the smoke reducer give better cooling?
The light could be better situated and focused to show bean color . . .
reflection off the mesh of the drum and the chaff catcher (I may punch a
hole in it) make it all but impossible to judge color as the roast
progresses.  It would help a lot with seeing the beans if the drum and chaff
catcher were dull, or even black.  It's hard to see dark things behind a
shiny, highly reflective screen.
The new tighter mesh drum is a great improvement . . . I haven't noted any
downside.
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

27) From: Michael Dhabolt
Deward,
Deward Hastings wrote:
<Snip>
Pretty do-able
<Snip>
Also do-able.  Feeding the PID a signal native to its function would
be easy with a ThermoCouple Probe into the chamber, and offsetting the
displayed temperature signal (at the PID) is a snap.  Someone sharper
than me may be able to get some indication from the installed sensor.
Many commercial roasters are familiar with using environment
temperature measurement to control their roasters,  The newer
generations of drum roasters usually have two measurement locations -
one ..... environment, two ..... bean mass.  Controlling the delta
between these two temperatures allows the operator to control the rate
of temperature change (hopefully - of the beans).
<Snip>
I wholeheartedly agree.
<Snip>
I think that doing away with the smoke 'Burner' would decrease the
heat input to the roaster - undoubtedly do-able to just unhook it.
What that would do to the total heat available to the roast would take
a little testing to understand.
<Snip>
I think it was Eddie Dove (if it was someone else - my apologies) who
posted a method of trimming a little metal from the chaff collector
tray arrangement to radically increase the visibility (the tray blocks
a lot of the light).  Try searching Homeroasters.Org for his mods.
There are some acid etches that would allow darkening the stainless -
if you follow thru on this - be sure and post what you used and how it
turned out.
<Snip>
Still have to order the new drum (laziness).
Mike (just plain)
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

28) From: Seth Grandeau
I just tried my first P2 roast, using Bob's directions.  I had a similar
experienace to Chad.
I was roasting Panama Las Victorias, 1/2# batch size.
On P1, I hit 1st cract at :10:36 and 2nd at 13:48.
I programed my P2 roast as {1#, P2, B, adjusted time to 17:10}, started the
roast and put extra time on it (after start) to get it to 20:00.  1st cract
didn't start until 11:00, well into the power reduction, which should have
occurred at 10:18.  1st never sounded like it was rolling, as it did on P1.
2nd crack did not start until 16:49, so it definitely spaced out the two
cracks.  Both roasts appear to be a nice FC/FC+ and are resting comfortably.
On 5/18/08, Chad Sheridan  wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

29) From: Bob Hazen
I remember wondering out loud (on list?) about measuring bean temp on a 
Behmor.  How >do< you get a thermocouple into the bean mass on a rotating 
cylinder?    One the listees suggested punching a hole in the Behmor case in 
line with the round, slotted support peg.  Drill a small hole in the center 
of the peg and poke the probe through.  It wouldn't need to rotate since it 
would be on axis.  Duh!  (slaps forehead)  Seems a thin probe from somebody 
like Omega could do the trick.  It would have to be bent so that the tip 
dropped down into the mass, but still avoided the agitators.  And the bend 
couldn't be so sharp as to prevent running it through the support peg once 
the drum was in place.
Details to work out, but... food for thought.
Bob

30) From: Alchemist John
I have been playing with an IR TC.  I have found the mesh reduces the 
emmisitivity about 3% (on end) but other than that, it works 
fine.  No need at all to 'get inside' - the speed of light does 
wonders.  Basically, something to think about.
At 16:54 5/18/2008, you wrote:
<Snip>
John Nanci
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.chocolatealchemy.com/Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

31) From: Rick Copple
So far, I've not had to do any work arounds to get good roasts. I even 
let it cool at its own rate, and the coffee tastes great.
I know some would like more control over the heat and power, and I would 
concur with that to a degree, but I'm not beholding to waiting for it to 
hit zero to stop the roast either. I don't go by the timer so much other 
than I know if it isn't hitting first crack around 4-5 minutes left, 
whatever time I've set it on, that I'll need to add time onto the end of 
the roast, and to time the end of the roast which will happen so many 
minutes after first crack hits. So I guess as far as I'm concerned, I 
use it as designed and it produces good coffee.
But, that may be the difference between me who came from wok roasting 
and someone who comes from another style. I sort of understand the 
desire for this, but I find no need myself to do any work arounds. Works 
fine as designed. Other's mileage may vary, though.
Keep in mind, though, as I recall, Joe designed this so the average user 
out there could roast coffee, who many not know much about it, or want 
to do anything more with it than to hit some pre-programmed buttons and 
let 'er rip. He's trying to make roasting coffee beans accessible to 
Aunt Suzie. Probably still has some room to grow there too, but by 
nature that means it will be more limited than a full-fledged home 
roaster might be used to.
And so far, the programmed settings have worked well for me. I'm sure 
I'll come across a bean that won't fit neatly into one of them, then 
I'll have to figure it out.
-- 
Rick Copplehttp://www.rlcopple.com/Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

32) From: Ira
At 10:48 AM 5/18/2008, you wrote:
<Snip>
Having designed a few embedded controllers, and given the face that 
all the requests are about making the programming simpler, I'd 
suggest it had nothing to do with money.
Ira
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

33) From: Bill
Alchemist, I don't roast with a Behmor, but I'm still interested in the
discussions.  Could you be a bit more specific... where are you mounting it?
 Actually, I am wondering if an "IR TC" is the same as a hand-held IR or
another thing altogether.  I googled it but couldn't figure it out.  Thanks
in advance.bill in wyo
On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Alchemist John 
wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

34) From: Alchemist John
Oh, sorry, my own shorthand.  Any non-contact thermometer should work 
and is what I meant.  A hand held gun is fine.  I am using a M100 
from Raytech.  A bit more than a gun - takes wiring up a 12v power 
supply plus setting output options (J, K or mV) but it also has 
emmisitivity calibration capability.  I was playing with a spare 
Behmor I had around and just punched a whole through the left hand 
side.  This one is actually going to go into my Zen II roaster since 
it also has a mesh basket.
At 23:27 5/18/2008, you wrote:
<Snip>
John Nanci
AlChemist at large
Zen Roasting , Blending & Espresso pulling by Gestalthttp://www.chocolatealchemy.com/Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

35) From: Bill
Thanks for the clarification on that.  Interesting the way people are messin
with their Behmors.
bill in wyo
On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 5:44 AM, Alchemist John 
wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

36) From: Rich
If I were to guess I would be thinking it had a lot more to do with the 
postulated product liability.  Thee has been a great deal of hand 
wringing related to the potential for burning the beans.  This rampant 
postulation occurred long before the Behmor came to market.
Product liability lawyers and insurance companies are not inclined to 
trust the end user.
Ira wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

37) From: Seth Grandeau
There was a thread a few weeks back about "what would you do if you owned
your own coffee shop."  Most of us instantly went to some variation of
"on-demand" or "self-service" roasting.  miKe then pointed out all the
reasons why that wouldn't work (time, space, liablility, etc).  I'm sure for
a product manufacturer, there are similar contraints.  Product liability is
one, but building a product that a lot of people will buy is another.
Building a product that is perfect for people on this mailing list compared
to building a product that you need to sell 10s of 1000s of copies of are
two very different things.  I assume some tradeoffs were made to keep the
product simple enough that there would be those 10s of 1000s of purchasers,
and not just the few dozen who read this mailing list. :)
On 5/19/08, Rich  wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

38) From: David Morgenlender
Yesterday, I made my first attempts at using this approach.  It didn't work out
very well!
My first attempt was a 1/2 lb. of Mexico Organic Oaxaca WP Decaf.  I wanted the
power drop to start at 12:40, so I set the roast time to 21 min. (before
starting the roast).  The actual drop started at approximately 11:00 & lasted
through 17:00.  This gave me a WEIRD roast.  1st crack didn't start until 13:33
& had VERY sporadic pops.  It lasted until about 15:00.  After the power up at
17:00, 1st crack appeared again!  At about 17:48 1st turned into 2nd!  So, hit
Cool.  My intended C+ roast ended up being FC+!
Next up was Yemen Mokha Mattari FC+.  To delay the start of the power drop, I
wanted to set the time to 24:00;  however, the max. allowed is 22:30, so I used
that.  Now the power level drop was approximately at 10:00-16:00, i.e EARLIER
than the previous roast!!!
So, just for the heck of it, on my final roast (Panama Auction Lot - Mama Cata
Gesha), I decided to try the opposite approach ... I reduced the initial time to
18:00.  This time the power drop was at 10:30;  I hit Cool at 15:30, at which
point the power was still dropped.
Any idea what's going on here?  I just did not get results consistent with the
methods described in this thread.  I can't imagine power was jumping around
enough to totally skew the results.  Any idea how the Behmor would handle a
lower than expected voltage?  (When I get a chance I may pull out my variac to
play around.)
BTW, I should make sure I'm interpreting things correctly.  Once 100% power has
gone on awhile, the heating elements cycle on & off.  At the power drop, the
heating elements are off for awhile, then cycle.  When power returns to 100%,
the elements stay on for awhile, before resuming cycling?  If I'm
misinterpreting the signs of power drop & resume, that could explain my spurious
results (although the roast acted as if the power drop slowed the roast at a
time consistent with my interpretation, etc.).
Dave
On Sun, 18 May 2008 18:37:41 -0400, you wrote:
<Snip>
=======================================================
Dave Morgenlender
e-mail: dmorgen
=======================================================
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

39) From: Dave
I think there are 2 power control things happening here. There is a
safety control, which keeps the roaster from overheating, and there is
the programmed power control. I think the first is relatively
unpredictable, and makes figuring this out just that much more
difficult. because the power may cut when you don't expect it to, and
you really can't tell that it's the safety drop, not the programmed
drop.
-- 
Dave
Some days...
It's just not worth chewing through the leather straps
On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 1:40 PM, David Morgenlender
 wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Dave
Some days...
It's just not worth chewing through the leather straps
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

40) From: Deward Hastings
<Snip>
Exactly.  I don't see anyone asking for more automation, or more "features"
. . . the requests are for the most basic functions.  I just want access to
*user* control of the most basic roast parameters, time and temperature.  I
don't care one way or another about the stuff that (supposedly) makes it
possible to load a pound of beans, push a couple buttons, and forget about
it until you get back home and unload the finished roast.  I'm not asking
that "automation" be enhanced, or removed.  I don't care if it's there to
make a mass market consumer product out of it.  I just want to be able to
bypass that stuff altogether, and use it as a coffee roaster.
Not that a USB port wouldn't be convenient, mind you.  I'd be fine with
getting access to basic control functions that way.  I'd be fine with
hacking the controller, if schematics and the control structure were
published.
Just want to be able to turn it on, turn it off, and adjust the power.  Is
that too much to ask?
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

41) From: Allon Stern
On May 18, 2008, at 1:41 PM, Bob Hazen wrote:
<Snip>
Workin' on it, but on an iRoast2, using an ATMEGA168 (Arduino), not  
PIC....
The basic hardware/software should apply, however.
-
allon
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20


HomeRoast Digest