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Topic: Roasted Coffee Beans that are Accurately Roasted (14 msgs / 449 lines)
1) From: Allon Stern
On Jun 10, 2008, at 4:27 PM, Jamie Dolan wrote:
<Snip>
Get a thermocouple. It's like opening your eyes - you can watch the  
roast progress, pause, progress, etc., where before you might not  
have noticed anything.
It's all about temperature - you can't roast without heat, why  
measure with your eyes?
(not to say looks aren't important - but I prefer to use eyes, nose,  
ears, AND measure temperature)
-
allon
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2) From: Tom Ulmer
It's a crack based relationship.

3) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
I have been working on a high res printed card that might help. 
There's always going to be some play in visually evaluating degree of 
roast, but I think a very well-printed card can help, because texture 
and other clues are helpful beyond color. One issue with using coffee 
itself as a reference is that it does actually change color over 
time. I used to keep a "library" of roast shades using roasted and 
ground samples but it became useless after a month.
As far as the printed card, I am hoping that it will low cost so we 
can include it as a freebie in orders, like we do with our "origin" 
cards... I could also do a series of them and by including only the 
practical middle roast ranges, stay with a small format. If there was 
a series that including, for example, a SHB central wet process, a 
Brazil dry process, a semi-washed sumatra ... this could be quite 
useful.
Tom
--
                   "Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"
            Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting  -  Tom & Maria
                      http://www.sweetmarias.com                Thompson Owen george_at_sweetmarias.com
     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - tom_at_sweetmarias.com
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4) From: peterz
Jamie,
There are some tiles manufactured to check the degree of roast against, 
but the roast needs to be run through the grinder first to get it accurate.
To me it would be great to just have something to compare my roasted 
beans to on the fly so to speak.
Some one on this list had assembled a bunch of paint sample cards from 
home depot or a paint store, and they were for sale from hime for lots 
cheaper than the tiles.
If someone were to have the tiles I bet a paint store could match the 
color quite easily with the technology they have today, (maybe even 
print some sample colors!) then just paint a bunch of sheets and ship 
them to whoever wants them for whatever the cost is to make them. Very 
cheap I bet, if a few hundred of us were interested; but then there 
would be labor costs.
The tiles are a few hundred dollars. You probably just need the ones 
that interest you though.
I think Ginny was offering a set of tiles for sale not to long ago.
Best,
PeterZ
Jamie Dolan wrote:
<Snip>
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5) From: Dean De Crisce
You could get the roasted coffee of the week from tom.
But fwiw...i find that I do not use color as roast indicator. I use the cracks and bean size/surface. 
City is anywhere from onset to finish of first crack. The surface is wrinkled. Size is not entirely maximized.
City plus is after first crack ends...from ten to ninety seconds after. All chaff is off. Bean surface is smoother.
Full city is moments prior to second crack. So that when its pulled to cool, a few snaps of second crack may be heard. Bean surface is completely smooth. Bean crevice is empty of chaf.
Full city plus is ten seconds into second crack. Generally dry..but oil may surface in spots after a few days rest. This is different from vienna which is forty seconds into second crack and has a sheen on the bean.
Stop the roasts at these times with a single bean...compare and taste them. Different beans may appear somewhat different.
Hope this is somewhat helpful.
Dean De Crisce
Sent from a Treo phone.

6) From: Frank Parth
<Snip>
Tom,
Free would be good, but I'd be happy to pay for it also, especially if you had it printed up as a poster. I could 
mountit over my roasting area and not have to try and explain the differences in the roasts to visitors.
Frank Parth
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7) From: Ira
At 02:18 PM 6/10/2008, you wrote:
<Snip>
You might also find out what black envelopes to keep them in would 
cost as otherwise they might fade.
Ira
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8) From: Robert Yoder
I'd love to have such a card!  Thanks!
 =
robert yoder> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 14:18:49 -0700> To: homeroast=
eetmariascoffee.com> From: sweetmarias> Subject: Re: [Homer=
oast] Roasted Coffee Beans that are Accurately Roasted and Labeled> > I hav=
e been working on a high res printed card that might help. > There's always=
 going to be some play in visually evaluating degree of > roast, but I thin=
k a very well-printed card can help, because texture > and other clues are =
helpful beyond color. One issue with using coffee > itself as a reference i=
s that it does actually change color over > time. I used to keep a "library=
" of roast shades using roasted and > ground samples but it became useless =
after a month.> > As far as the printed card, I am hoping that it will low =
cost so we > can include it as a freebie in orders, like we do with our "or=
igin" > cards... I could also do a series of them and by including only the=
 > practical middle roast ranges, stay with a small format. If there was > =
a series that including, for example, a SHB central wet process, a > Brazil=
 dry process, a semi-washed sumatra ... this could be quite > useful.> > To=
m> -- >=> "Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"> Sweet Maria's Home Coff=
ee Roasting - Tom & Maria>http://www.sweetmarias.com>Thompson Owen george=
_at_sweetmarias.com>=> Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, C=
A 94607 - USA> phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - tom_at_sweetmarias.com>=> Homeroast mailing list> Homeroast=
sts.sweetmariascoffee.com>http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/=homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.com> Homeroast community pictures -upload yours=
!) :http://www.homeroasting.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820Now you can invite friends from Facebook and other groups to join you on Wi=
ndows Live Messenger. Add now.
https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_AddNow_Now
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9) From: Sheila Quinn
Me too -- great idea, Tom!
Sheila
Robert Yoder wrote:
<Snip>
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10) From: Michael Dhabolt
Tom,
Great Idea!!  The card size would be really useful.  If it costs us a
bit, so be it. Even if it works out to be a freebie, I'd like to buy a
stack.
I'd love to give out a few to shops that persist in pulling shots from
beans that look like they have been soaked in creosote.
Mike (just plain)
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11) From: Jamie Dolan
<Snip>
Hello;
Sorry for the delay in responding, it's been a crazy week here.  I did
consider that the color of the beans could change, but had no idea it
would be so fast.
<Snip>
This seems like a wonderful idea.  I think it would be fairly easy to
accomplish, and the cost would be fairly low.  I would suggest that
the beans simply be photographed and then printed out as photographs.
So the cost of the cards would merely be the cost to print a
photograph.  If you wanted a large quantity of the cards you could
even have them printed by a commercial printer for less money than
photographs cost.
I am able to take high quality photos, and believe that I would be
able to accurately color match the coffee beans to the printed photo.
I asked the lab I use about the accuracy of there color reproduction
and they said that they would be able to consistently accurately
reproduce the colors.
If someone wants to donate some beans that they feel are "accurately
roasted" (i.e. city, city plus, etc.), I an willing to shoot some
photos and send them out to the lab I use and see how good of a color
match we can get.
Thoughts?
Thanks
Jamie
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12) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
Well - I plan to print a lot of these cards. I think there are issues 
with finding a coffee that represents a good middle range of, for 
example, wet processed coffees. The trick is that you CAN"t approach 
this very scientifically. I have tried this too often. You can take 
absolutely uniform images of coffee at 10 degree increments, and  if 
somebody handed you the stack of images it would be nearly impossible 
to put them in order, or to determine important measurements, for 
example, where did 1st crack occur, or what roast level judged by 
flavor corresponds to a certain appearance. What is really happening, 
I think, is that you are "representing" what a particular roast 
result looks like in the bean, and the viewer is interpreting that. 
White balance, contrast, surface texture and reflectance (not to 
mention bean to bean variations) ... they all skew the process. It's 
really a lot harder than it seems , so I have found the best way is 
to do a bunch of C+ roasts for example, then take a bunch of uniform 
images (I use a copy stand with 4 balanced lights, george howell 
swears by a scanner he uses - maybe I should try that), then take it 
into photoshop and make it look right in CMYK color space. I just 
hope I dont print 5000 cards that are off, due to the printer. I 
guess it would be wise to order a proof in this case.
Tom
--
                   "Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"
            Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting  -  Tom & Maria
                      http://www.sweetmarias.com                Thompson Owen george_at_sweetmarias.com
     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - tom_at_sweetmarias.com
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13) From: Sheila Quinn
Yes, make sure you get a Matchprint proof (or similar quality) and that 
the printer knows ahead of time that the color is of the utmost 
importance. Printers will not normally guarantee color accuracy, so find 
someone who will do so and will guarantee your satisfaction with the 
final product.
I'm looking forward to these cards. They will be very helpful!
Sheila
=======
I just hope I dont print 5000 cards that are off, due to the printer. I 
guess it would be wise to order a proof in this case.
Tom
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14) From: Jamie Dolan
<Snip>
I did think about using a scanner, and wondering what results you
would get with beans on the glass.  I have scanned things with a
little dimension to them in the past successfully.  So I think it
would be worth trying.
<Snip>
Yes, you want to pay for a Match print.  It will often be like $50,
but the deal is that your end product should really be very close to
that print they provided you with. (it has been my experiance has been
that the shops I have used do give you a end product that is very
close to the match print, although there can be come variations).  A
quality print shop with at least a 4 color press should be able to do
this.  There are a number of hand held color analyzers that help quite
a bit with keeping your color consistent to the original print (match
print).  I would suggest asking a print shop about the type of color
management system they use, and make sure it include some type of
digital reader is used to verify the colors being printed on the press
are consistent with the match print, and there not just "eyeballed".
I'd pay a couple extra bucks to get a really good quality coated paper
that is 98% bright or better, the better papers tend to help the
consistency of the end product quite a bit.
One other idea, you might want to find a printer that has a HP Indigo
press.  The cool thing about the HP Indigo is that you can get a proof
run from that press, it's one of the very few situations where you can
easily see a press proof in the off-set printing world.
When you speak with printers, you can tell them that you need to see a
press proof (instead of just asking for a match print) for color
matching.  This means that they will either have to have you there in
person when they are running the job to approve it, or they will have
to have a press like the HP Indigo that can produce a on press proof
ahead of time.
Jamie
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