HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Beans and Co2 (52 msgs / 1707 lines)
1) From: John M. Howison
     As a newcomer to serious coffee and the list, I have been
surprised that  we are advised to let roasted beans rest before
storing, so that CO2.    Then we are enjoined to protect the beans
from oxidation,  the enemy of flavor.
     How come?  It seems to me that one might hurry the beans into
storage before the  CO2 escapes, so that it will not be replaced with
oxygen.   The CO2 would eventually be dispelled when the beans are
ground.  Any remaining CO2 would be displaced by water in the brewing
process, avoiding any harm to flavor.
     Before recorking a still-half-full bottle of wine, unfastidious
Italians of my acquaintance used to blow breath into the bottle and
then quickly cork it before oxygen reentered.   The process slowed
down the oxidation process so that the wine lost its flavor more
slowly.  Why wouldn't the sane principle apply to coffee beans?
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2) From: Ed Needham
I can't speak for anyone else, but the idea of storing beans for more than a 
week is lost on me.  I homeroast and use beans as fast as I roast them. 
None of my roasted beans last more than a week.  I like the flavor of beans 
right out of the roaster and find absolutely no need to allow them to 
'rest/stale' before grinding and brewing them.
Now, with that said...
Oxygen stales beans quickly.  Some have postulated that if you allow the CO2 
to outgas and displace the oxygen a bit in a jar of beans that they will 
stale less quickly, so leaving the lid loose on top of the jar for a day or 
so allows the oxygen to be pushed out similar to when fermentation of beer 
creates CO@ and pushes the O2 out the airlock at the top of the glass jar. 
Some vac seal roasted beans to evacuate as much oxygen as possible.  Some 
freeze their beans to slow staling reactions.
I say, do whatever floats your boat.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

3) From: Bill
John, there are people who know the chemistry much better.  I kinda (kinda!)
know the principles...
Staling is not the only thing ocurring.  Roasting takes a stable object (a
seed) and makes it unstable.  We release fats, acids, carbohydrate chains,
and re-write the chemistry of the seed.  It is now unstable.  Chemical
changes are occurring in the bean, even if it is totally protected from CO2.
 In fact, you can remove all of the staling factors: light, wet, air, and
still stale a bean: TIME.
The question to ask is: is there a peak to the flavor that you like in the
bean?  2 coffees that I've got now are cases in point.  I have a Rwanda that
Tom recommends to rest for a few days.  It is night and day different from
48 hours rest than it was at 24 hours.  I also have a 1/2 lb of Yirga Cheffe
Konga that I know from about 5 lbs of experience is my favorite bean from
day 3 to day 6.  I seriously do not believe that at day 3 it is simply that
the bean is more stale, therefore that I like it more...  flavors change.
 Different flavors come to the front.  This is not staleness, this is
complexity.
Last years' crop of Mandheling tasted best to me at 5-8 days rest.  This
year's is best after 3.  Go figure.
Ed is a much much much much much more experienced homeroaster than I.  Trust
him.  But all the same I disagree, even though I'm such a noob.
And in the spirit of this list, the most important thing is: EXPERIMENT for
yourself.  Find what you like!  Enjoy it for all it's worth!  You'll
discover that your tastebuds sing to something different than Ed's and
different than mine.
After all, that's why we go to all the trouble of roasting at home...
because we prefer our tastebuds to those of the roaster down on Main
Street...
hopefully someone with more experience and more scientific know-how will
come and speak about rest, as well...
bill in wyo.
p.s. the yirg will be singing tomorrow afternoon and later...
On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:01 PM, John M. Howison 
wrote:
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4) From: raymanowen
"Chemical changes are occurring in the bean, even if it is totally protected
from CO2."
Say WHAT?
One of the products of the chemical reactions is the evolution of CO2. The
fact that I'm no chemist has no effect on the happy physical fact that CO2
molecules are more dense than O2 molecules, and displace them.
Just like oil floats on water, O2 molecules float on the puddle of CO2 that
accumulates in the bottom of jars or plastic bags of fresh roasted coffee
beans. If you treat the CO2 like water, it'll be your friend, excluding
Oxygen from your fresh coffee beans.
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 10:36 PM, Bill  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976
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5) From: Larry Williams
In my limited almost two years of roasting I have noted that resting 
coffee improves the flavor.  Some are ready to drink the next day.  
Others like Yemen  need at least three days.  Is it the CO2 that makes 
the difference?  I don't know!  I have recently started to leave the 
container open over night to allow the CO2 to escape in response to 
recent post I have read.  Then I seal the container the next day.  Does 
it make a difference?  I can't tell!
 After reading RayO's post  it could be that the CO2 is still in the 
bottom of the container - trapped.  Do I need to invert the container 
and devise a way for the CO2 come out the bottom?  Hum!  Is the answer a 
porous cloth bag for the period when CO2 needs to escape?  Then put the 
beans in a sealed container. 
All in the search of excellence.
Larry
John M. Howison wrote:
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6) From: Bill
Yup, I was tired and didn't write what I meant.  Thanks for catching it Ray.
 I meant to say if you protected the beans completely from O2.  Yeah, CO2 is
one of the changes that is happening in the bean after roasting...
bill in wyo
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7) From: Stan Klonowski
Umm.
 Sorry to say the CO2 and the O2 will mix, along with loads of N2. Due to
partial pressures of gases and such the O2 will not simply be pushed out, it
will be mixed and pushed out along with everything else including CO2.  Yes
in the end the CO2 will effectively flush the system but not in the same way
as flowing a bunch of CO2, or other inert gas over the beans.
I would bet that sealing a container so it maintains a pressure could
actually increase oxidation.  This would be a result of the increased energy
in the sealed system, increasing the reaction rate of the oxygen-ie:
oxidation.
Not trying to be a know it all. I just love when I can apply coffee and
chemistry. Maybe I need to measure the CO2 changes some time.
Stan
2008/6/25 Bill :
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8) From: Ed Needham
Thankfully though, CO2 and O2 don't easily separate, otherwise, we'd have to 
live somewhere high in the mountaintops or higher to breathe oxygen and the 
plants would rule the world.  True, the molecular weight of CO2 is quite a 
bit heavier than O2, but if disturbed, the layering quickly disappears and 
the gasses blend.  The mere fact that the beans are outgassing CO2 means 
there are reactions going on inside the beans as they patiently await their 
grinding demise and our enjoyment.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

9) From: Ed Needham
Bill, I'm not even sure I agree with myself all the time!
Your words are true though.  Experiment and find what YOU like and enjoy.
The longer I roast, the more I realize I don't know.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

10) From: Ed Needham
The freshest beans tend to 'carbonate' the brew and make it more lively. 
The CO2 'may' impart taste to the brew too as I discovered on a recent 
campout with about 150 of my closest beer homebrewing friends.  We filled a 
keg with water and put CO2 pressure on it to push it out so we could have 
water on tap.  The resulting water was slightly carbonated and it had a 
sparkling water taste.  If you've ever sipped carbonated water without some 
sweet flavoring, you'll know what I mean.
back to coffee...
If the beans are outgassing CO2 with enough pressure to make a jar go 
'Pssssssst' when you open it, the CO2 is really pushing out of the beans 
with some force.  I'm guessing the brew becomes slightly carbonated and the 
flavor might also be affected.
The CO2 is likely responsible for espresso crema, since CO2 under pressure 
will quickly carbonate a liquid.  An espresso machine produces somewhere 
around 130 PSI of pressure at the portafilter, which is way more than the 
10-15 PSI of pressure I put on my homebrew beer to force carbonate it.  Fun 
things to think about.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

11) From: MJR
Ray...
CO2 is the result of one or more of the reactions that take place in the
bean over the first few days after roasting. Apparantly it helps the
flavor of the coffee to let these changes happen. But you don't need to
force the C02 out of your container of roasted beans. You are quite right
in that the CO2 helps to exclude O2. The moment you open the container,
and certainly when you grind the beans, it will be gone.
I think the original reason for getting rid of the CO2 is because in LARGE
batches, the quantity of CO2 generated from freshly roasted beans can blow
the lids off of their containers. I typically roast every couple of days,
and my beans, usually never more than 8 roasted oz at a time, sit in
tightly sealed 2 quart containers without any problems.
Also... To another query... CO2 is heavier than air, but not so much
heavier that it won't be gone in the morning if you leave the jar open
over nite. No need for special bags or spilling CO2 in some special way.
Matthew quine Rapaport
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12) From: Bill
Interesting thoughts on carbonation.  Thank you, Ed...  always stuff around
here to make me think.bill in wyo
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13) From: raymanowen
There are no thunder storms and atmospheric turbulence within a jar of
coffee beans at rest. For the illustration of the immiscibility of oil and
water, I apologize. I thought it might make some progress as an intuitively
obvious event, though not perceived.
Whereas miscibility refers to the property of liquids to mix in all
proportions forming a homogeneous solution, in principle, the term applies
also to other phases (solids and gases), but the main focus is on the
solubility  of one liquid in
another, according to Wikipedia.
The mechanism of the dissipation of flatulence is similar- aren't we happy
the atmosphere has a solar powered mixmaster?
Cheers, Mabuhay, iechyd da -RayO, aka Opa!
Scuba gear and clothes pins not required.
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14) From: raymanowen
CO2 causes crema, an emulsion?
"I'm guessing
the brew becomes slightly carbonated and the flavor might also be affected."
[Pour a carbonated beverage into a hot pan and boil it. See the carbonation
Leave.]
"The CO2 is likely responsible for espresso crema, since CO2 under pressure
will quickly carbonate a liquid."
[No crema if the carbonation doesn't happen quickly? See
this.
]
"An espresso machine produces somewhere around 130 PSI of pressure at the
portafilter-
[And over 200F],
which is way more than the 10-15 PSI of pressure
[And how much heat?]
I put on my homebrew beer to force carbonate it."
"Fun things to think about."
Don't go into a rapture- Think!
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
-- =
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976
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15) From: Mike Koenig
I agree with Stan here..  I seriously doubt that the beans will
produce enough CO2 to push enough oxygen out of the system to make a
difference.  Gases are funny things in that they move around quite
readily, and it's very difficult to separate one from the other (they
behave nothing like liquids).
It would many container volumes of CO2, flushed through the jar, and
excluding input of anything else to provide an oxygen free
environment.  Leaving a container undisturbed, with a lid on loosely
might reduce the concentration of CO2 somewhat, but there will still
be plenty of O2 around.  Opening the lid will create some movement,
putting in your spoon will really stir things up, and the gases will
get all mixed up.
Oil and water don't mix because they aren't miscible in one another.
One floats on the other because of the difference in density (these
are two distinct phenomena).  These concepts generally dont' apply to
gases, since the molecules are free to fly around in their container
and mix with one another.
When I had to work with some oxygen sensitive materials in a glove box
in an O2 free environment, it would take at least three complete
cycles of filling and emptying the chamber with nitrogen (with the aid
of a vacuum pump) to get the concentration low enough.  The coffee
beans are certainly not providing this type of purging action.
I'm not trying to be a chemistry snob, but just trying to avoid the
"net wisdom" that sometimes becomes established fact.
--mike
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 5:31 PM, Stan Klonowski  wrote:
<Snip>
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16) From: Brian Kamnetz
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 5:31 PM, Stan Klonowski  wrote:
<Snip>
It would be very interesting to see the results of such measurements.
Too bad that the various gasses don't respond differently to some
spectrum of light, so that they appeared as different colors. That
would be very fun to see!
Brian
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17) From: Allon Stern
On Jun 26, 2008, at 6:41 PM, Brian Kamnetz wrote:
<Snip>
Anyone got a mass spectrometer handy? ;)
-
allon
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18) From: sci
I'll chime in here after reading this thread for a few days, even if I have
said this months before on this topic.
I've found a very simple way to take the guesswork out of this and get a
virtual O2 free storage environment for your beans. I use it every day many
times for the multiple bean origins I keep in stock and rotating.
1. get VacuSeal bags. Simple. Cheap. Reusable 500x. Tough as nails. I put my
beans in immediately after roasting, while still warm. Pull a rock hard
vacuum on them. There will actually be a negative pressure (vacuum) on them
while they degas. As beans degas, they will slightly puff up the bag. 99% of
that gas is CO2 since there was virtually no air in the bag to start with.
O2 is gone from gitgo.
2. Use beans as you wish after initial rest period, but reseal and vacuum
the bags after each use (takes about 5 seconds).
3. Want to store longer? Vac the bag; Use a puff of CO2/Ar from a wine
preserver can; revac. This takes about 30 seconds, but is worth it on
expensive beans like Geisha. A can of preserver lasts a long time.
BTW, I did some home experiments with the wine preserver gas and it was
amazing how ordinary food items could be preserved for a long time when the
O2 was gone. I kept an apple slice fresh for two weeks at room temp in a gas
flushed container. Compared to the control slice, the difference was huge.
Sorry, it wasn't double blind placebo controlled. O2 is our enemy (he said
taking a deep breath).
There are other reasons I like the bags: they travel easily, no breakage;
they are very compact; I can revac them anywhere with just my lips; they are
extraordinarily tough; I've never thrown one away and I know I have some
I've used over 500x.
However there is one reason I don't like them: they have a ball valve (aka
check valve) that can get stuck open with debris. So you can't easily store
ground coffee in them. When stuck, just wash them with warm water and they
are good to go.
FWIW
YMWV
Ivan
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:59:06 -0400
From: "Mike Koenig" 
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Beans and Co2
To: homeroast
Message-ID:
       
Content-Type: text/plain; charsetF-8
I agree with Stan here..  I seriously doubt that the beans will
produce enough CO2 to push enough oxygen out of the system to make a
difference.  Gases are funny things in that they move around quite
readily, and it's very difficult to separate one from the other (they
behave nothing like liquids).
It would many container volumes of CO2, flushed through the jar, and
excluding input of anything else to provide an oxygen free
environment.  Leaving a container undisturbed, with a lid on loosely
might reduce the concentration of CO2 somewhat, but there will still
be plenty of O2 around.  Opening the lid will create some movement,
putting in your spoon will really stir things up, and the gases will
get all mixed up.
Oil and water don't mix because they aren't miscible in one another.
One floats on the other because of the difference in density (these
are two distinct phenomena).  These concepts generally dont' apply to
gases, since the molecules are free to fly around in their container
and mix with one another.
When I had to work with some oxygen sensitive materials in a glove box
in an O2 free environment, it would take at least three complete
cycles of filling and emptying the chamber with nitrogen (with the aid
of a vacuum pump) to get the concentration low enough.  The coffee
beans are certainly not providing this type of purging action.
I'm not trying to be a chemistry snob, but just trying to avoid the
"net wisdom" that sometimes becomes established fact.
--mike
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19) From: Rich
What you say is dead on and works well.  But it flies in the face of the 
desire to create some rube goldburg method that ultimately costs more, 
takes more time to use, and does not actually store beans any better 
than a zip lock bag.
sci wrote:
<Snip>
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20) From: Mike Koenig
Now I'm probably bordering on the pedantic,  but an argument can be
made that pulling a strong vacuum on already roasted and rested beans
will decrease the aromatics by pulling out some of the volatile
compounds.
And now I will duck and run for cover.
The solution to the storage problem is to drink more, or roast less..
--mike
On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 8:22 PM, sci  wrote:
<Snip>
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21) From: Rich
Strangely enough, that has been my theory also.  All I do is put the 
warm beans into zip lock bags and remove the excess air by drawing about 
a 5 to 8 inch water vacuum on the bag.  It does "puff up" as it ages but 
I suspect that the contents are coffee, nitrogen, and trace gases.  The 
oxygen has been consumed in the completion of the cooling / resting process.
Mike Koenig wrote:
<Snip>
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22) From: Floyd Lozano
if there's any doubt, do the test!  folks have argued and supposed and
discussed the merits of the methods.  it might be that aromatics are
pulled out, and it might be that it's preferable to the damage that
evil oxygen can do if this is not done.  flushing with an inert gas
would have about the same effect right?  blow the aromatics right out?
 i find i get a 'good enough' cup just putting the beans in jars and
drinking through it within 5 days.  i haven't personally done the
tests to see if i could go from 'good enough' to 'outstanding and
consistently excellent' cups with additional effort and time, or
expense.  i do know i had some outstanding Menno's this week, and El
Roble, and I just drop it in a jar and twist a lid.  I'll try next
time with a vac seal and see how much better it rocks =)
-F
On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 9:56 AM, Rich  wrote:
<Snip>
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23) From: sci
Mike
Sometimes the vacuum does seem to make a little oil appear on the surface of
the beans, but rarely, esp. if the roast is C+ or less. But that's just the
visible oils. It might indeed pull some aromatics out, but they'd stay in
the hermetically sealed vac'd enviro. But the O2 is so low that VOCs don't
degrade as fast and negative pressure would make O2 atoms scarcely available
for interaction with VOCs.
Such hypotheses could only be verified by a very controlled experiment with
gas spectrometers. All us mere mortals can do is use tons of trial and
error. I've been using the method I describe for 8 months and it works
better than rigid airtight containers. And did I mention that it is cheap?
Cheap gives something a quicker thumbs up around my house nowadays.
"Drink more". There's a solution we can all agree on!
Ivan
You pays ya money, and you takes ya chances.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 09:43:02 -0400
From: "Mike Koenig" 
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Beans and Co2
To: homeroast
Message-ID:
       
Content-Type: text/plain; charsetF-8
Now I'm probably bordering on the pedantic,  but an argument can be
made that pulling a strong vacuum on already roasted and rested beans
will decrease the aromatics by pulling out some of the volatile
compounds.
And now I will duck and run for cover.
The solution to the storage problem is to drink more, or roast less..
--mike
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24) From: Bryan Wray
See, what we need is a vacuum roaster, with a vacuum sealer inside, hahaha.  This thread is cracking me up.  I feel another "Cholesterol and coffee" (or whatever that thread that never died was, I guess Jacu Bird first time around would be in there too) thread coming on.
lol
-Bry
"It is my hope that people realize that coffee is more than just a caffeine delivery service, it can be a culinary art"- Chris Owens of Cafe Grumpy in NYC.
--- On Fri, 6/27/08, sci  wrote:
<Snip>
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25) From: Mike Koenig
Debates like this one, while they might be annoying to some, I think
are good for the overall knowledge base of homeroasting.
I also brew beer occasionally, and have for many years subscribed to a
mailing list call the HomeBrew Digest (hbd.org).   Much of the talk
over the years has consisted of debates such as this one,  some of
which have debunked a lot of the conventional wisdom in home brewing,
including things published in widely read books.
Now, if I only still had access to an Infrared spectrometer, I could
do some proofs of my theories, and add some real facts to my
debate....
--mike
On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 9:06 PM, Bryan Wray
 wrote:
<Snip>
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26) From: Ed Needham
I've found that freethinking sometimes leads to thoughts no one has ever had 
before.  If 99% of the thoughts are worthless and 1% are gems, then it's 
worth it in my book.
At least it's worked for me.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

27) From: Bryan Wray
Oh, I wasn't saying it was worthless, just humorous.
-Bry
""The freethinking of one age is the common sense of the next." -Mathew Arnold, "God and the Bible"
"It is my hope that people realize that coffee is more than just a caffeine delivery service, it can be a culinary art"- Chris Owens of Cafe Grumpy in NYC.
--- On Sat, 6/28/08, Ed Needham  wrote:
<Snip>
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28) From: Ed Needham
I was agreeing with you. (g)

29) From: raymanowen
"See, what we need is a vacuum roaster, with a vacuum sealer inside..."
How about a roaster that roasts green coffee in an inert environment- with
CO2 or N2 replacing the evacuated air and O2? O2 at elevated temperature is
more reactive. Eliminate O2 in the room with the hot hydrocarbon coffee
beans- stop the monkey business.
The inert gases are heated with combustion gases or electric heat in a heat
exchanger, so it shouldn't limit your heating method.
Cheers, Mabuhay, iechyd da -RayO, aka Opa!
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976
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30) From: Joseph Robertson
I bet Stan K. has access to one.
JoeR
On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 5:03 PM, Allon Stern  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and pallet reform.
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31) From: Joseph Robertson
John,
Another 2 cents for this growing thread regarding bean gassing and CO2.
I took a week long roasting course fromhttp://www.coffeelab.com/The coffee they roast and sell is canned in either a 5 oz or a 12 oz can
with a special valve lid. Mane's  coffee is roasted and canned with very
little time in between. Not to mention the can is recyclable, unlike many
other foil lined packages you see today. Your feeling is correct. Canning in
the CO2 is a quick and natural way to preserve the freshness. I agree with
other posts in this thread that say why keep coffee. Unless it becomes very
hard to get greens. Of course we home roasters have no package to recycle.
JoeR
On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 7:01 PM, John M. Howison 
wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and pallet reform.
Homeroast mailing list
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32) From: sci
Humorous ? Thanks . Hope you get a good chuckle out of our musings on gases,
but we simply want improve our craft.
Worthless ? Thanks again, but I have a  good friend who is a
multimillionaire because he invented and sells a generator that produces
inert gas on demand that is used to flush O2 from all kinds of food and
beverage packaging. I can't afford a generator yet, smallest one costs $10K.
Next time you open a bag of chips and they taste ultra fresh, remember it
was because there was no O2 in that bag. If food production is the
foundation of civilization, food preservation must be the first layer of
bricks. All this applies directly to coffee and the improvement of our cup.
IMHO,
Ivan
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 09:14:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bryan Wray 
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Beans and Co2
To: homeroast
Message-ID: <179744.24287.qm>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Oh, I wasn't saying it was worthless, just humorous
Homeroast mailing list
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33) From: sci
Humorous ? Thanks . Hope you get a good chuckle out of our musings on gases,
but we simply want improve our craft.
Worthless ? Thanks again, but I have a  good friend who is a
multimillionaire because he invented and sells a generator that produces
inert gas on demand that is used to flush O2 from all kinds of food and
beverage packaging. I can't afford a generator yet, smallest one costs $10K.
Next time you open a bag of chips and they taste ultra fresh, remember it
was because there was no O2 in that bag. If food production is the
foundation of civilization, food preservation must be the first layer of
bricks. All this applies directly to coffee and the improvement of our cup.
IMHO,
Ivan
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 09:14:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bryan Wray 
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Beans and Co2
To: homeroast
Message-ID: <179744.24287.qm>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Oh, I wasn't saying it was worthless, just humorous
Homeroast mailing list
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34) From: Joseph Robertson
Ivan,
I will second that one.
JoeR
On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 8:29 PM, sci  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and pallet reform.
Homeroast mailing list
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35) From: Tom Ulmer
I will take exception to the discussion of gasses in this context and
furthering the craft. What you describe is a method of preserving freshness.
I believe this to more suited to a large purveyor of roasted coffee and
little benefit to a home coffee roaster - unless you're looking to roast
every eight weeks or you have grander commercial interests. Likewise, if I
were to prepare potato chips in my kitchen I would give no thought to
preserving them and direct my thoughts to immediate gratification.
This is not to say that I don't find the discussion interesting or I'd not
be following it.

36) From: Joseph Robertson
Tom,
Point well taken. After roasting a new batch of beans that I have not tried
before the last thing I want to do is to preserve them.
JoeR
On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Tom Ulmer  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and pallet reform.
Homeroast mailing list
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37) From: Bryan Wray
And Tom, I will second *that* one...
-Bry
"It is my hope that people realize that coffee is more than just a caffeine delivery service, it can be a culinary art"- Chris Owens of Cafe Grumpy in NYC.
--- On Sun, 6/29/08, Tom Ulmer  wrote:
<Snip>
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38) From: sci
Tom,
You're quite right that we don't keep our beans very long because we drink
them up so fast. But some beans need to rest 4, 6, even 10 days to reach
their peak. It takes discipline to not drink them. So beans go through a
curing/maturation after roasting. Hence, we need to preserve them from
oxidation during that curing period or they go flat, and lose delicate
evanescent traits. The Yemens/Ethiopians are good examples. They need lots
of rest. The cumulative homeroasting experience seems to say that resting
them in a environment with O2 is not good. It's not good for potato chips,
coffee, or any food item. Potato chips and lots of other homemade goodies
need to be eaten quickly: day-old stuff is no good. But how many homemade
items do you know of that need to "rest" for 4 days before they get their
best flavor? Few.
The O2 solution I mentioned costs less than a penny per roasted batch, works
wonders, is flexible, and takes little effort. If those are not merits, what
would merits be?
My .02 on O2,
Ivan
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:10:01 -0400
From: "Tom Ulmer" 
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Beans and Co2
To: 
Message-ID: <000c01c8da1b$bb369db0$31a3d910$@us>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
I will take exception to the discussion of gasses in this context and
furthering the craft. What you describe is a method of preserving freshness.
I believe this to more suited to a large purveyor of roasted coffee and
little benefit to a home coffee roaster - unless you're looking to roast
every eight weeks or you have grander commercial interests. Likewise, if I
were to prepare potato chips in my kitchen I would give no thought to
preserving them and direct my thoughts to immediate gratification.
This is not to say that I don't find the discussion interesting or I'd not
be following it.

39) From: Dean De Crisce
Ivan...i certainly see the recs regarding rest...but never quite understood it. I have found most beans to be at their best, after degassing, within 1-3 days after a roast with rare exceptions...to my taste.
Some coffees have a funky taste right out of the roaster...i don't know how to describe it...i assumed it was somehow due to the gassing process. In those cases...like in some yemens, it seems to me to settle down after a day.
After a 2-5 days most roasts, to me IMHO (and certainly no expert) to lose highlights that make homeroasting the best game in town. 
if you don't mind...why would resting, after a day, make the coffee better? 
I have been putting them in a stainless steel, clasp-type mason jar with the lid slightly ajar for 4-6 hours...then I close it. I usually roast 1/2-1 lb at a time and use it up within what I determined from my experience to be the best time 3-6 days.
I certainly would not want to miss techniques that could give me the best cup possible.
Dean De Crisce
Sent from a Treo phone.

40) From: Dean De Crisce
Ivan...i certainly see the recs regarding rest...but never quite understood it. I have found most beans to be at their best, after degassing, within 1-3 days after a roast with rare exceptions...to my taste.
Some coffees have a funky taste right out of the roaster...i don't know how to describe it...i assumed it was somehow due to the gassing process. In those cases...like in some yemens, it seems to me to settle down after a day.
After a 2-5 days most roasts, to me IMHO (and certainly no expert) to lose highlights that make homeroasting the best game in town. 
if you don't mind...why would resting, after a day, make the coffee better? 
I have been putting them in a stainless steel, clasp-type mason jar with the lid slightly ajar for 4-6 hours...then I close it. I usually roast 1/2-1 lb at a time and use it up within what I determined from my experience to be the best time 3-6 days.
I certainly would not want to miss techniques that could give me the best cup possible.
Dean De Crisce
Sent from a Treo phone.

41) From: Tom Ulmer
I agree the dynamics of roasted coffee flavor are much different than most
items I prepare. If you find a method that you feel allows extra storage
time for peak flavors you desire to shine that is worthy of your time and
efforts then I applaud your discovery. My opinion is simply that fresh
roasted coffees consumed in a timely fashion do not require anything more
than an air-tight container for storage. I've never considered the quantity
of oxygen in the container as particular issue. If the desired result was to
open the container after an extended period of time with some expectation of
brewing a quality cup then the considerations would differ.

42) From: Kirk Janowiak
Resting is not ONLY about degassing.
Resting (so called) is also about allowing chemical reactions that  
were started in the roasting process to continue. This includes:
  * the breaking apart (hydrolysis) of complex sugars to simpler  
sugars which adds sweetness, and smoothness and can lend support to  
the fruity and berry-like flavors;
  * the reorganization of sidechain interactions within and between  
proteins; of course, most of the proteins are denatured when they get  
cooked at our over 400F roasting temperatures, so we are really  
allowing denaturing and reconfiguring of shorter chains of amino acids  
to continue. This adds some of the unique flavors of origin, some of  
the pleasant bitterness, yet at the same time can add to sweetness and  
fruitiness (think on this: Aspartame [Nutrasweet] is simply two amino  
acids linked together in a non-typical manner), and is probably  
responsible for some of the unusual flavors we experience from time to  
time at different levels of roast of the same kinds of beans. Left too  
long, this denaturing can also add "skunkiness (from sulfide bridges  
in the sidechains); and
  * the reconfiguring or breakdown of lipids and fatty acids. These  
processes add body, mouthfeel, some sweetness (from the glycerols),  
and some of the experience of aftertaste. The same kinds of things are  
pleasurably experienced when we use fats and oils in any other kind of  
cooking. However, left to break down too long, especially in warm  
temperatures in the presence of oxygen, these products of breaking  
apart lipids will eventually lead to rancid flavors and also  
contributes to "skunkiness".
The rates of these reactions are generally quite low and, hence, "more  
controlled" (tend not to runaway like other spontaneous exergonic  
reactions). The desirable peak of these changes is determined - as  
many have noted here - on personal taste and depends on the origins,  
original chemical components of the beans, and the level of roasting  
to which the beans have been subjected. All other factors being more  
or less equal (origin, bean density, etc.) light-roasted beans tend to  
take a longer rest to sweeten and peak their depth than do beans at  
Full City and beyond.
Yes, certain aspects of sharpness, acidity, and unique flavors of the  
origin may be altered (some would say "lost") after more than a day or  
so of rest, but many, myself included, find that the pleasurable  
flavors associated with coffee that we describe as "chocolaty" in the  
Centrals and Brazilians, "spice" (like black pepper, cardomom, or  
licorice)  in the Yemens, and Fruitiness (apricot & blueberry) in the  
Ethiopians can fairly explode well after 4 days. I have found not a  
staling in the North Africans after 5 or even 7 days of rest, but a  
smoothness and pleasurable blend of fruits, berries, and spice that is  
covered up by the acidity or by the flavor of the roast at only a day  
or so resting time.
Kirk
On Jun 29, 2008, at 9:46 PM, Dean De Crisce wrote:
<Snip>
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43) From: Ed Needham
If beans don't taste great right out of the roaster, then something's wrong. 
That's not to say they don't change over a few days, which seems desirable 
to some, but they are not going to gain flavor.
I can't argue with what someone prefers, but aside from the desire to 
package beans without them puffing up the bag, I can see no reason to 
purposely stale them for ten days (as suggested by someone else) before 
drinking them.  By that time, pretty much all the most delicate volatiles 
will have dissipated, the sweetness of aroma will have turned to blah, and 
oils will have begun to turn noticeably rancid.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

44) From: Ed Needham
Coffee chemistry is fascinating to me.  I'll be adding your post to my 
archive.
I think the key to what you have stated is that "The rates of these 
reactions are generally quite low".  As compared to how quickly and somewhat 
uncontrollably they occur during roasting.  Clearly, reactions continue as 
the beans age/stale and break down.  I like coffee that is less than a week 
old.  I don't like 7 day old coffee as much as coffee that has been properly 
roasted to it's peak, and brewed within a day or two of roasting.  O2 is 
clearly a reactant in the process as the beans change, but even without O2, 
there would be change in the roasted bean over time.  Freezing can slow the 
process, but nothing short of cryogenic freezing could stop the change.
The one thing you did not address was the dissipation of the delicate 
volatiles of flavor and aroma which begin as soon as the beans are heated in 
the roaster.  The fruity acids combine in chemical reactions and the taste 
they might impart disappears.   The bulk of these fruity acids are lost in 
the roasting process, but a skilled roaster can balance the process so that 
the fruity acids, the Maillard amino-sugar reactions, the caramelization and 
breakdown of sugars, and on up to small amounts of carbonization to produce 
a pleasant cup.
Thanks for a great post.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

45) From: miKe mcKoffee
Kirk,
Extremely well said.
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIIhttp://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVII.htmKona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
<Snip>
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46) From: Bill Goodman
Ed Needham wrote:
<Snip>
If only!  Not my experience yet.  Almost everything I've roasted since 
getting the bug a few months ago has needed at least a day's rest, and 
the Panama Boquete Organic Las Lajones I've been roasting of late to 
FC/FC+ in the iRoast2 has been undrinkable until about 3 days' rest.  
With 3-6 days' rest it's been good as FP, and pretty near perfect as 
espresso.
Bill G
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47) From: Dean De Crisce
thanks for your time in answering this so eloquently.
Dean De Crisce
Sent from a Treo phone.

48) From: Ed Needham
Let me clarify.  It's clear that beans change over time after they have been 
roasted.  It's also clear that some prefer the taste of beans that have 
changed for several days after roasting.  The intent of my post was to say 
that if the beans taste 'funky' or have off flavors right out of the 
roaster, then there's either a problem with the beans or a problem with the 
roast.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

49) From: Dean De Crisce
It may be crazy...but I think I can taste the higher CO2 gas content in some beans after they are roasted. I don't know if it is my imagination.
Dean De Crisce
Sent from a Treo phone.

50) From: raymanowen
" I think I can taste the higher CO2 gas content in some beans after they
are roasted."
Me too. Never can taste anything before they're roasted- unlike Khaldi's
Bezoar cuppers.
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 9:44 PM, Dean De Crisce 
wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976
Homeroast mailing list
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51) From: sci
Kirk, Dean, Tom, et al
Thanks Kirk for that detailed description of what chemical reactions happen
in the bean. I think it is safe to say that there are an infinite number of
chemical combinations and ratios/quantities in coffee beans, esp. when you
consider all the varieties and roasting differences. Most of us, only by
trial an error, and sharing, target and hit a particular chemical trait by
roasting and resting, grinding and brewing.
I once calculated how many different cups of coffee I could make. 30 origins
x 4 roast levels (c,c+,fc, v) x 8 brew methods x 7 rest levelsg20! That's
6720 different cups of coffee in my kitchen! I bet somebody on this list can
triple that.
Of course there are probably other variables one could add in there like
grind level, but these seem to be the major variables.
Dean,
I usually roast about 1/2 lb of coffee and have about 5 or 6 different beans
roasted at any one time. Then I rotate my daily cups, nearly always drinking
single cup brews (AP, FP, VP, MP, drip,) So, if I drink a cup of each coffee
each day, I stretch out a particular bean over a week. If I roast IMV today,
I'll have at least a cup or two of it everyday for over a week. You can
detect the differences and the "mellowing."  IMLE, Some great cups come out
after 5 days, esp. with FC and beyond. C and C+ do seem to fade after 4
days. Some of the veterans on the list could speak to this better.
I write the date on the bag to know when it was roasted, and then finish off
a bag about 6-7 days after it was roasted. I also travel and like to be able
to easily keep a bean over a week on the road. It's no problem.
Tom,
If you drink your roasted coffee in 48 hours, you are right not to worry too
much about storage, and what you do works great. If you ever go on a trip
for a week and want to carry beans and keep'm fresh you might want take more
care. You can vac pac a bean for two weeks and still get a stellar cup if
you don't break the seal until about day 7.
Is part of the CSA pledge that you MUST carry coffee with you when you
travel?? I could have sworn that it was in there! Ha!
Ivan
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:05:07 -0400
From: Kirk Janowiak 
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Beans and Co2
To: homeroast
Message-ID: <61D2C16B-B32A-4806-938C-9D9E85FA1BC2>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Resting is not ONLY about degassing.
Resting (so called) is also about allowing chemical reactions that
were started in the roasting process to continue. This includes:
 * the breaking apart (hydrolysis) of complex sugars to simpler
sugars which adds sweetness, and smoothness and can lend support to
the fruity and berry-like flavors;
 * the reorganization of sidechain interactions within and between
proteins; of course, most of the proteins are denatured when they get
cooked at our over 400F roasting temperatures, so we are really
allowing denaturing and reconfiguring of shorter chains of amino acids
to continue. This adds some of the unique flavors of origin, some of
the pleasant bitterness, yet at the same time can add to sweetness and
fruitiness (think on this: Aspartame [Nutrasweet] is simply two amino
acids linked together in a non-typical manner), and is probably
responsible for some of the unusual flavors we experience from time to
time at different levels of roast of the same kinds of beans. Left too
long, this denaturing can also add "skunkiness (from sulfide bridges
in the sidechains); and
 * the reconfiguring or breakdown of lipids and fatty acids. These
processes add body, mouthfeel, some sweetness (from the glycerols),
and some of the experience of aftertaste. The same kinds of things are
pleasurably experienced when we use fats and oils in any other kind of
cooking. However, left to break down too long, especially in warm
temperatures in the presence of oxygen, these products of breaking
apart lipids will eventually lead to rancid flavors and also
contributes to "skunkiness".
The rates of these reactions are generally quite low and, hence, "more
controlled" (tend not to runaway like other spontaneous exergonic
reactions). The desirable peak of these changes is determined - as
many have noted here - on personal taste and depends on the origins,
original chemical components of the beans, and the level of roasting
to which the beans have been subjected. All other factors being more
or less equal (origin, bean density, etc.) light-roasted beans tend to
take a longer rest to sweeten and peak their depth than do beans at
Full City and beyond.
Yes, certain aspects of sharpness, acidity, and unique flavors of the
origin may be altered (some would say "lost") after more than a day or
so of rest, but many, myself included, find that the pleasurable
flavors associated with coffee that we describe as "chocolaty" in the
Centrals and Brazilians, "spice" (like black pepper, cardomom, or
licorice)  in the Yemens, and Fruitiness (apricot & blueberry) in the
Ethiopians can fairly explode well after 4 days. I have found not a
staling in the North Africans after 5 or even 7 days of rest, but a
smoothness and pleasurable blend of fruits, berries, and spice that is
covered up by the acidity or by the flavor of the roast at only a day
or so resting time.
Kirk
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52) From: Joseph Robertson
Mike M. The Author of the CSA pledge may amend the pledge if he gets enough
votes for a requirement like "packing your coffee for extended trips.
I'll have to read it again, I'm not sure if it is included. I keep it posted
on my wall.
JoeR
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 10:25 PM, sci  wrote:
<Snip>
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