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Topic: Beans and Co2 - and Resting vs. Staling (2 msgs / 93 lines)
1) From: Kirk Janowiak
  Ed Needham wrote two excellent additions to this thread:
1:
Ed wrote:
 >>The one thing you [that's me, Kirk] did not address was the  
dissipation of the delicate volatiles of flavor and aroma which begin  
as soon as the beans are heated in the roaster.  The fruity acids  
combine in chemical reactions and the taste they might impart  
disappears.   The bulk of these fruity acids are lost in the roasting  
process, but a skilled roaster can balance the process so that the  
fruity acids, the Maillard amino-sugar reactions, the caramelization  
and breakdown of sugars, and on up to small amounts of carbonization  
to produce a pleasant cup<<
[Me:] Yes, of course delicate volatiles can and will be lost during  
the "resting period." You will get no disagreement from me on that! To  
you and others on the list, this appears to be quite important and  
preserving these initial volatiles outweighs any perceived advantage  
of letting the other continuing reactions take place. What is  
considered "mellowing" to some (thought of as an improvement) is  
"dulling" or "staling" (a degradation) to you and others who prefer  
their roasts right out of the roaster. I simply state that this is  
where "Taste Prevails" and each of us finds the grounds (no pun  
intended, unless you laughed, then I'll take credit) on which we  
determine a cup to be good or great!
Having said that, though, contrary to this being a one way slide to  
rancidity...other volatiles, and some just as delicate, can and often  
are produced by the resting process. While the overall aroma of  
"coffeeness" that we love may diminish after a couple days (and I do  
not notice it until around 5-7 days with most varieties), I often find  
more of the other aromas over time, particularly berries and exotic  
spices. Maybe I am just not able to sense them when there is so much  
of the wonderful classic coffee aroma covering them up. Could be, but  
I'd be willing to bet that some coffees, when rested at moderate room  
temperatures, produce other aromas and flavors that simply aren't  
there right out of the roaster.
2:
On Jun 30, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Ed Needham wrote:
 >>Let me clarify.  It's clear that beans change over time after they  
have been roasted.  It's also clear that some prefer the taste of  
beans that have changed for several days after roasting.  The intent  
of my post was to say that if the beans taste 'funky' or have off  
flavors right out of the roaster, then there's either a problem with  
the beans or a problem with the roast.<<
[Me:] Oh, yes! and AMEN! If the beans taste *badly* out of the  
roaster, it is rarely true that resting will improve the flavor. Some  
folks will say that some of the wildness of the Yirgs and other  
Ethiopians is a "bad" taste or a defect, and that resting mellows some  
of that out and improves the cup. I would disagree, since I LOVE that  
wild flavor. The barnyard taste of the Liberica can be moderated by a  
little time as well...but, as you say, careful roasting would take  
care of that anyway. But if it comes out skunky or baggy from the  
roaster...that ship has sailed and there will be no improvement - just  
an increase in the already rancid bunch of beans. Compost time!
Ed, you have been at this far longer than I and I am truly  
appreciative of your experience, input, and comments. I am still a  
rube and newbie with only 3 years of roasting experience. In spite of  
the fact that I *am* a scientist, I am quite unscientific in my daily  
approach, taking very few notes, measuring very little, and "winging  
it" on initial roasts with new varieties. I *do* have a good eye for  
observations and I remember what works and doesn't, so I rarely repeat  
roasting errors I make. I am finally getting a grip of how my roasting  
needs to change with the seasons (due to ambient temperature and  
humidity). I am still roasting with the classic, original West Bend  
Poppery (with all of its limitations) and will someday progress to  
drum roasting - where much more of the comments by the more  
experienced crew here will make sense.
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2) From: Bill
Kirk,
Great post.  Thank you for the insightful comments.  This is one of the
things I love about this list.  The other is the community!
bill in wyo
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 12:29 PM, Kirk Janowiak  wrote:
<Snip>
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