HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Defects? (31 msgs / 846 lines)
1) From: Ken B
Ok, this may be a stupid question, but I've read the list for a year, 
and done well over 100 roasts, and am still unsure of the answer.
What comprises a defect? 
I know there are 'quakers", which I take to mean beans that do not roast 
as much as others, or at all.  When do these become defects that should 
be pulled?
What about empty shells?  e.g. beans that have no middle in them?  Are 
these defects even if they look to be the same roast level?
What else should I be looking for?  How about beans that look ok, other 
than the chaff is still firmly connected?  Itty bitty beans?
Any help would be most appreciated.  I 'think' I know the answer to most 
of these, but thought I would ask, just to be sure.
Best Regards,
Ken B
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2) From: Tim TenClay
Ken... I'd say a defect is any bean that isn't essentially the same as the
rest.  I wouldn't probably include those with chaff attached.  I DO pull out
beans that look like they've had something on them (i.e. mold... liquid...
etc.... I haven't seem many) and I SOMETIMES weed out those beans that don't
roast normally.  Other than that, I don't worry about them.
Keep an eye out for rocks and other non-beans though.  I've only had a
couple in the few hundred pounds that I've roasted, but I sometimes have
day-time-nightmares of what they might do to my grinder.
Grace and Peace,
  `tim
On 7/4/08, Ken B  wrote:
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3) From: Keld Soele
Hi Ken. (And Hi, fellowroasters)
<Snip>
there are 5 claases of defects:
- Non-coffee (foreign matter: ie. stone, stick)
- Non-bean (other part of plant, husk, hulls)
- Irregular beans (ears, shells, nipped beans)
- Irregular visuals, with risk of bad taste
So it´s the last (and first for grinder) class that, to me, is of the
most concern.
If the bean is smaller, as in broken, it will rost to quickly. And
uneven and spottet apperance might be mould or frost damage, which
gives mushy or rancid flavour.
And then the stinker bean! What a great name for a bad bean. It
appears normal but gives overfermented or rotten smell when cut,
ground or brewed. The cause is a prolonged stay in pulping or abrasion
in the process so the beans protective layer is damaged with risc of
attac from microorganisms.
And finaly he mentions the Rioy Bean, which again looks normal, but
smells medicinal or iodine when cut. Comes from over-ripe cherrys left
on branch, or the drying patio is heavily infected with
microorganisms.
So finaly my expensive book could be of some help. :-)
Cheers, Keld
(New list member from Denmark)
I-roast 2
KA Pro Line Grinder
KA Pro Line Espresso Machine
On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 2:37 PM, Ken B  wrote:
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4) From: Joseph Robertson
Well there are defects that us laymen call defects, then there are the
"official" set of defects as outlined out by the SCAA. If you do a search
using SCAA somewhere in the criteria I'm sure you will find the list. Tom
probably has this list somewhere in the main SM's site.
I am referring to the list of defects that sets apart Specialty Coffee from
coffee that does not get this classification. Most of Tom's coffees if not
all met the Speciality Coffee criteria. I think. Help me here Tom.
This is a great question.
JoeR
On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 5:44 AM, Tim TenClay  wrote:
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5) From: Robert Flanery
I have lucked into a system that works well for me...
My wife cannot and will not learn to drink coffee unless it has fu fu put in
it (you know, International Delight French Vanilla or something such)
coupled with Whole Milk.  Perish the thought.  So I have taken to sorting
out the irregulars and mixing them in with the coffee she drinks.  The
flavor is not far off of where it should be anyway, and she puts enough of
that syrupy stuff into it that I could probably brew a cow pie and she would
not know the difference. Besides, she often makes coffee from a can
purchased from the Grocery store.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy one of these deserts in a cup from time to time
myself.  It just seems like such a waste to put something beautiful into a
cup and then pour a sweetener on top of it.
I don't think that I am mis treating her, as she seems to love her morning
cup on the way out the door to work.  If she ever gives up the Fu Fu for
drinking coffee straight I will happily find another use for the clunkers in
the batch.
On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Tim TenClay  wrote:
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6) From: Tim TenClay
Has anyone seen the "Arabica Green Coffee Defect Handbook"?  I think it's
out of print, but could be interesting.... I believe the SCAA also has a
poster showing official defects (it IS still in print, I think)
Grace and Peace,
  `tim
On 7/4/08, Joseph Robertson  wrote:
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7) From: Joseph Robertson
Pretty sure it is still in print. Maybe even an update.
JoeR
On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 8:57 AM, Tim TenClay  wrote:
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8) From: Tim TenClay
I stand corrected.. sorry:
http://www.scaa.org/shop/product_detail.asp?productid02800Grace and Peace,
  `tim
On 7/4/08, Joseph Robertson  wrote:
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9) From: Andy Thomas
http://sweetmarias.com/look.at.green.html ----- Original Message ----
From: Ken B 
To: homeroast
Sent: Friday, July 4, 2008 5:37:45 AM
Subject: [Homeroast] Defects?
Ok, this may be a stupid question, but I've read the list for a year, =
and done well over 100 roasts, and am still unsure of the answer.
What comprises a defect? =
I know there are 'quakers", which I take to mean beans that do not roast =
as much as others, or at all.  When do these become defects that should =
be pulled?
What about empty shells?  e.g. beans that have no middle in them?  Are =
these defects even if they look to be the same roast level?
What else should I be looking for?  How about beans that look ok, other =
than the chaff is still firmly connected?  Itty bitty beans?
Any help would be most appreciated.  I 'think' I know the answer to most =
of these, but thought I would ask, just to be sure.
Best Regards,
Ken B
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10) From: Joseph Robertson
Tim,
I'm not sure about the hand book. But I am pretty sure about the poster
being available.
Nothing to be sorry about. There is not much I'm 100% sure about and I'm
only 50% sure of the stuff I'm 100% sure of.
<];^)
Cheers,
JoeR
On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 9:15 AM, Tim TenClay  wrote:
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11) From: Joseph Robertson
Andy,
Thanks a bunch. I knew Tom had a page on this subject.
JoeR
On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Andy Thomas  wrote:
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12) From: Ken B
Thanks to all.  I thought I knew the answers, and as usual with coffee, 
I only knew part of it. ;-)
Andy, this was what I was looking for.  Thanks much.  I didn't really 
want to be an SCAA expert on defects.  I just wanted to know how to cull 
my roasts to get the best cup possible, and I was doing it pretty close 
to correctly.  Heh, every time I think I have read everything on SM, 
someone posts a link like this that shows me I missed part of it.
So, not mentioned are the beans that roast at a much lighter level than 
the rest.  Are these defects, or do they contribute important flavor 
profiles to the roast?  (sort of like a built in melange) I normally 
pull the ones that are more than 2 shades lighter than the rest of the 
roast.  Am I hurting or helping the cup?
Best Regards,
Ken B
Andy Thomas wrote:
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13) From: Joseph Robertson
Ken,
Andy might or might not back me up on this but I think your looking at what
is called floaters. Test me on this and see if those light roasted beans
float. If they do I think they are mostly hollow. As to tainting your cup?
Not sure.
Any one out there 2cents or more on this one?
JoeR
On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 10:58 AM, Ken B  wrote:
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14) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
Floaters are separated either as full cherry, or right after the skin 
is "pulped" off the fruit. All roasted coffee will float. It's 
basically dried wood.
<Snip>
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                   "Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"
            Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting  -  Tom & Maria
                      http://www.sweetmarias.com                Thompson Owen george_at_sweetmarias.com
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15) From: Joseph Robertson
Tom,
Thanks for the clarification. I can clearly say now that I don't have a clue
why or what the extremely light in color beans are after roasting. Or why
some beans roast out like that. I have never noticed that many but I have
noticed them. It's a question I never got around to asking.
Can you help us on this one Tom?
JoeR
On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 11:44 AM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee <
sweetmarias> wrote:
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16) From: Ken B
Hi Tom,
Perhaps you can give a little clarification on this then?  If I am being 
too anal, you will not be the first to tell me this. ;-)
Thanks, and I hope ya'll are having a great fourth!
Ken B
Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee wrote:
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17) From: Andy Thomas
I don't know enough to either confirm or deny that they are floaters. I think the ones that roast too light are under-ripe, if memory serves. I usually don't cull them, especially in dry-processed coffees, which tend to roast more unevenly than wet-processed. My 2cts.
----- Original Message ----
From: Joseph Robertson 
To: homeroast
Sent: Friday, July 4, 2008 11:22:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Defects?
Ken,
Andy might or might not back me up on this but I think your looking at what
is called floaters. Test me on this and see if those light roasted beans
float. If they do I think they are mostly hollow. As to tainting your cup?
Not sure.
Any one out there 2cents or more on this one?
JoeR
On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 10:58 AM, Ken B  wrote:
<Snip>
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18) From: John Despres
Taste those lighter beans. Some will be sour and some will be sweet. =
They won't be exactly the same color, so if you learn the difference, =
you'll begin culling fewer light beans.
In more of the dry-processed beans, I.E.: Yemen, Ethiopia, and a few =
others, you'll find more uneven roasts with more lighter beans. Don't =
cull those beans. It's all part of the coffee.
John
Ken B wrote:
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-- =
John A C Despres
Hug your kids
616.437.9182
Scene It All Productions 
JD’s Coffee Provoked Ramblings =
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19) From: Joseph Robertson
Andy,
Tom, our list host and CEO, clarified the term "floaters" for me a couple of
posts above. Floaters are culled in the first stages of processing the
cherries.
JoeR
On Fri, Jul 4, 2008 at 5:59 PM, Andy Thomas  wrote:
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20) From: raymanowen
"Floaters are separated either as full cherry, or right after the skin is
"pulped" off the fruit. All roasted coffee will float. It's basically dried
wood."
Egad- Uncle Jack always said he wouldn't put his boat on the Illinois River
to meet for dinner at the IVY Club in Peoria, "Too many Floaters."
Came the dawn- ro
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976
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21) From: Vicki Smith
Tom's article in the 2008 Jan-Feb Tiny Joy deals with the issue of when 
to pull those very light beans.
"There are fantastic dry-process coffees that will have the
occasional quaker. Without culling them, they add a dry peanut
flavor to the cup, a tightness in the finish, some astringency.
Culling them out changes the cup, and sometimes over-culling
can remove some of the character you might expect from a
coffee, say a Harar. When we roast a dry-processed lot that has
some quakers (most recently, our excellent Ethiopia Sidamo
Special Selection), we remove the absolute lightest beans by
hand. The variation in bean-to-bean color in a dry process lot is
normal due to the primitive processing, and part of its character.
If you start to get overzealous in post-roast preparation, you
might find you lose more than you gain."
I don't worry about the empty shells. In DP coffees I pull the beans 
that look spectacularly under roasted and those odd ones that never 
really expanded (the itty bitty ones, mebbe?).
v
Ken B wrote:
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22) From: Ken B
Thanks Vicki...it sounds like you do basically the same as I do.  I do 
not get crazy on the culls.  On some roasts, maybe one or two, on 
others, maybe a dozen get culled.  It depends on the bean.  This is 
excellent information though, so it is nice you posted it to the list.  
Thank you.
Best Regards,
Ken B
Vicki Smith wrote:
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23) From: Ken B
Hi John,
Heh, the sour ones are the ones that worry me. ;-) I think I know what 
you mean.  Some are grayish, some are more cinnamon colored.  The 
cinnamon ones seem to be ok while the grayish ones are nasty.  Those I 
always cull.  I always wondered why some beans ended up as empty shells 
though, and if those impacted the roast.  They seem to taste ok, so if 
they are grayish I pull them, if not, I leave them in.
Best Regards,
Ken B
John Despres wrote:
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24) From: kevin creason
When my RK roasted batch is cooling I am sifting the beans in the colanders
looking for off-color ones. When I find one I break it with my fingers and
smell it. You can easily tell the bad ones that way and begin color matching
in that batch. but I never assume a color is bad from batch to batch-- the
Yemens and Ethiopians taught me that. Sometimes those Dijon mustard colored
ones are good, sometimes bad.
Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't.
On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 7:06 AM, Ken B  wrote:
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-- 
-Kevin
/* Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you
with experience. */
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25) From: Ed Needham
Beans that are picked before they ripen will roast lighter than the ripe =
ones.  The flavor will be off too.  It is a defect.  They're called =
floaters.
In a  mélange roast, where you purposely roast part of the batch lighter =
and =
part darker, and all levels in between at the roasters choosing, the goal i=
s =
to enhance the flavor by combining the roasts.  It is possible that the =
fully roasted, lighter colored floaters will add something to the overall =
flavor, but it would be luck of the draw if it did.
I remember the old Sumatras that were the ugliest and worst looking beans I =
ever roasted, but the flavor was unique and incredible at times.  Now the =
Sumatras look cleaner and better milled than most others and the unique =
flavors are gone.  Not to say Sumatras are bad.  On the contrary, I love =
Sumatras now.  They are just different.  I learned later in my roasting =
adventure that the 'earthy' notes were, well, earth, with beans being dried =
on the sides of dirt roads.  Ahhhh, the good old days.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

26) From: Joseph Robertson
Ed,
Thank you for this clarification. I knew I heard the term floater in
conjunction with defect.
Have a great cup today,
JoeR
On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 7:33 AM, Ed Needham  wrote:
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-- =
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27) From: Bryan Wray
Doesn't the term floater come from under ripe beans that float during wet p=
rocessing?  I mean, that's kind of what I always assumed.  And yes, if they=
 get through processing they will roast up lighter and at this point I thou=
ght they were called Quakers.  Am I correct, or no?
-Bry
"It is my hope that people realize that coffee is more than just a caffeine=
 delivery service, it can be a culinary art"- Chris Owens of Cafe Grumpy in=
 NYC.
--- On Sat, 7/5/08, Ed Needham  wrote:
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28) From: Tom Ulmer
My understanding is that over ripe cherries, raisins if you like, will float
as well. There is some debate whether the raisins qualify as defective.

29) From: Ed Needham
You are right.  Quaker is another term for the beans that float. See this 
informative video...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xya1FeSfsEU&feature=related*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

30) From: Edward Bourgeois
Quakers will be lighter in weight too. They will sound different when
dropped on a counter.
On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 7:11 PM, Ed Needham  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
Amherst MA.http://www.aginclassroom.org/Homeroast mailing list">http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/ Co-President- Ma. Agriculture in the Classroomhttp://www.aginclassroom.org/Homeroast mailing list
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31) From: Ken B
Hi Keld,
Thanks for your research and welcome to the list! :-) =
Rocks, twigs and other material seem to be pretty rare in Tom's greens, =
though I have gotten the occasional rock.  So far, nothing like the gold =
earring one of our list members found though.  What I was trying to get =
to was the level of appropriate obsession in culling beans after the =
roast.  Many here have helped me to understand that what I was doing was =
at least on the right track.  Whether I cull ALL the defects is another =
thing entirely. ;-)  I also have started doing a quick sort before the =
roast to see if I see any black beans or ones that just look wrong.  =
However, I have yet to notice a ig difference in the cup...
Best Regards,
Ken B
Keld Soele wrote:
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