HomeRoast Digest


Topic: death to the venti (29 msgs / 659 lines)
1) From: Peter Genuardi
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92398779Just heard on NPR that Intelligentsia just announced they're done offering
20 ounce beverages.
Morning Edition
, July
10, 2008  A Chicago-based coffee chain called Intelligentsia is doing aw=
ay
with 20-ounce coffee drinks. The company's Chief Executive Doug Zell tells
the *Chicago Tribune*, "Drinking our coffee is not like drinking jug wine."
Here's to educating folks on why monster coffee drinks are no good...
 - Peter
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2) From: Michael Dhabolt
Kudos to Intelligentisia !!
Mike (just plain)
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3) From: Kris McN
I just listened - I didn't get if they are doing away with 20 oz. milk
drinks, or large cups of *any* coffee.  I can totally see their argument
against 20oz. lattes, but I don't see how the coffee's automatically
"watered down" if it's, say, press pot, or drip.  I think that distinction
may have gotten lost in the story.
Kris McN
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 9:02 AM, Peter Genuardi 
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4) From: miKe mcKoffee
There are a few Indies making the move to 12oz max size lattes. (from
various discussions on BGA & BX...) My largest is currently 16oz.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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5) From: Tom Ulmer
I do not subscribe to the consumer mind set that more is better and I fully
understand the attempt to differentiate one's brand, but chasing off a
particular market makes no sense to me.

6) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
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If the coffee is good, it can come in half gallon jugs, as far as I 
care. Cup size is more about consumer perception and marketing. I 
don't think I have ever bought a 20 oz coffee, but I often return to 
a cool 12 oz cup and enjoy the flavors from warm to cold. I think the 
goal is to separate from starbucks, which is a good idea. Come to 
think of it, I will not use starbucks names when I order coffee. i 
order a medium, or a small. An italian name doesnt improve the coffee 
in the cup.
tom
--
                   "Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"
            Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting  -  Tom & Maria
                      http://www.sweetmarias.com                Thompson Owen george_at_sweetmarias.com
     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - tom_at_sweetmarias.com
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7) From: Sandy Andina
They've always offered a 6.5 oz. "trad cappuccino" as an alternative  =
to the 12-oz.-and-up "American" or Seattle-style cappa.  Good to see  =
them carrying the banner.
On Jul 10, 2008, at 11:02 AM, Peter Genuardi wrote:
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Sandy Andina
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8) From: Tim TenClay
I'm going to have to chime in here and agree with Tom.  I think there is
value in a 20 oz coffee if it's good coffee.  When I'm traveling or working
somewhere it's great to have a large coffee I can "nurse" for several
hours.  If it's good coffee, it's (as) good cold as well as hot.  Chars
coffee isn't good cold or hot, but that's a problem with them, not with the
size.
Grace and Peace,
  `tim
On 7/10/08, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee 
wrote:
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Do not forward without permission of the original author.
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Rev. Tim TenClay, NATA #253
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9) From: Bryan Wray
Well lets all remember we don't know if this is just death to 20oz milk or death to all 20oz.  (Does anyone know about this yet?)
That said, I'm all for it either way (more so if it's just milk drinks).  There is nothing more frustrating then being really excited about a great bean that you roasted specifically for SO 'spro and having someone say "Alright!  Let me try it!"  And then requesting it as a 20oz soy latte with whip.  If they are putting in the effort to make their coffee taste great (and honestly, does anyone doubt Intelligentsia's effort?) then make it stand alone.
Also, this just occurred to me, how frustrated would customers be if they asked for a "large latte" and were handed a 16oz and at the same time a 20oz brewed coffee was placed right next to theirs on the counter.  The baristas say "Large latte!" followed by "Large Tres Santos" and there is an obvious difference in the sizes.  They will have to deal with the "is this a large?" for a little while, but they would have to deal with the "why is his large larger than my large" for forever...
-Bry
"It is my hope that people realize that coffee is more than just a caffeine delivery service, it can be a culinary art"- Chris Owens of Cafe Grumpy in NYC.
--- On Thu, 7/10/08, Tim TenClay  wrote:
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10) From: Sandy Andina
I tend to agree that there is no good reason for a 20-oz. cup of plain  =
black coffee, either:  if a pint of brew at a time won't do, you  =
probably have a problem that goes beyond wanting a nice-size cuppa  =
joe.  Moreover, the stores were probably losing money hand-over fist  =
on free refills of cups that size.   I always have the counter-person  =
at Mickey D's, Booger King or Culver's wonder why on earth I would  =
want a small soda when I could get a medium or large for not much  =
more;  my philosophy is that I don't WANT to buy more than I can  =
comfortably drink, and if there are free refills I can always top up  =
if the small size won't do.
Heck, even a 20-oz bottle of water is pretty darned big--I can barely  =
make it through a pint at a time.
On Jul 10, 2008, at 11:02 AM, Peter Genuardi wrote:
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Sandy Andina
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11) From: Bryan Wray
Eh... water is different for me.  I put a gallon in my car every morning an=
d it is gone when I get home, no kidding.  Granted I do a lot of delivery d=
riving that requires heavy lifting (yay for accounts that order like 450lbs=
 of coffee alone, not to mention syrups, chais, teas, sauces, cups, etc, a =
week... and I'm not exaggerating at all... 450lbs) and quick moving because=
 I only have the vehicle for a short period of time, and I disc golf every =
single day which lately has been ridiculously hot and humid, so you have to=
 factor those in.  But yeah, either way I probably drink 1.5-2 gallons of w=
ater a day.
-Bry
"It is my hope that people realize that coffee is more than just a caffeine=
 delivery service, it can be a culinary art"- Chris Owens of Cafe Grumpy in=
 NYC.
--- On Thu, 7/10/08, Sandy Andina  wrote:
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12) From: Matthew Price
Hah, I love doing that!  My personality is pretty non-confrontational
- middle child syndrome? - but I get a huge kick out of doing the same
thing.  I don't mind revealing that I'll go to a Starbucks for a drip
coffee when I'm away from my own homeroast.  I love it when the person
in front of me in line orders something that takes a paragraph to
describe and I can follow up with a distracted "medium coffee, black".
 Maybe I love it so much because it momentarily distrubs all the
pretense.
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 1:12 PM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
 wrote:
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13) From: Seth Grandeau
The Israeli army did a study and found that soldiers could perform their
best, even in desert conditions, if they drank a liter of water per hour.
Who am I to argue with the Israeli army.  Drink up!
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Bryan Wray 
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14) From: Jim & Tammie
I must be missing something here because I don't see this as a good thing.  
- If the product is not selling by all means, take it off the menu.
- If customers like the product but it's a financial loser, charge more.
Why would any of us "decide" what the customer wants, or "what is good for
them?"  Should the local micro-brew stop selling the 22 oz draft because we
really only need a pint?
I am not a latte drinker - I prefer my coffee hot and black.  But my wife
does enjoy an occasional skinny latte.  Fortunately our local roaster
(Boston Stoker) does a very nice job with their Enorme 20 oz. (according to
my wife.)  However, if she orders one from other places, she will typically
ask for an additional shot.  The point is, the size of the cup has nothing
to do with the quality of the contents.  Perhaps if the 20 oz. is "watered
down" it's not being prepared properly.  
I would hope that all of us realize that that "really great bean" is
subjective.  And how someone would enjoy it (the preparation), and the
quantity  to be enjoyed are personal preferences.  
Price the product to make it worthwhile (for both parties) and, from my
experience, most coffee houses do not offer free re-fills.  That's a
no-brainer.
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15) From: Bryan Wray
I think what you are missing is the fact that they are trying to separate themselves from the likes of Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts, etc.  If I had to pick one place that did lattes correctly, it would be Intelligentsia.  There is no doubt about that in my mind, and I would think 99% of the list would agree.  It's not that it tastes watered down (well... it does, but I won't go there, it isn't worth it) it's that at some point we have to get away from the stupid "big gulp is best" attitude that some idiot started long, long ago and for some reason has never died.
I assume you have never worked in a shop from the lines "why would any of us 'decide' what the customer wants or 'what is good for them.'"  Those that have worked in shops probably chuckled at that the same way that I did.  People in charge of shop decisions (no matter what level gets to make the decision, it will vary from company to company) decide what a customer wants daily, whether it is suggesting a drink, blend, bean, etc.  If it is a shop offering syrup flavors then perhaps they suggest that.  They might suggest you give the "no foam" request a second thought, explaining that "we do foam differently than most places." (And then victoriously place a rosetta in front of their surprised and happily pleased faces and lips).  They might suggest trying a higher fat contact milk for improved sweetness and mouthfeel.  It's all about suggestions and decisions, without them the customer never learns and experiences new things and coffee therefore never
 evolves.
If you haven't attempted to read the article I think you should.  Doug answers most of the questions people have posed very directly and, I think, very well.  Regarding drip coffee he says, "Do you really need 20 ounces of drip coffee?"  (So BTW, it is drip and espresso based beverages, not just one or the other.)  And I totally agree, and I take it one step further.  Is 20 ounces really going to do *that* much more for you than 16 ounces?  It isn't a matter of "add a shot" in my opinion.  It really does just throw off proportions and to compensate you would have to add a lot of shots.  Adding a lot of shots adds a lot of price.  People already complain about $4-$5 lattes, I can only imagine if that turned over to $6-$7 lattes.  Not only that, but a lot of people aren't going to want a 5 shot large latte, and then we are back to people ordering 3 shot larges, etc and now their product isn't getting the respect it deserves all over again.  Here is a link
 to one article:http://plainvanillashell.com/article.asp?ID079There is an argument for letting coffee cool, but I personally have never had a problem letting a 12 ounce cup of coffee cool, let alone a 16 ounce.  Maybe I just take my coffee experience slower, who knows.
I love how well my quote of Chris Owens for my email signature fits into this whole thing.
-Bry
"It is my hope that people realize that coffee is more than just a caffeine delivery service, it can be a culinary art"- Chris Owens of Cafe Grumpy in NYC.
--- On Thu, 7/10/08, Jim & Tammie  wrote:
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16) From: Sandy Andina
Well, Tony Dreyfuss does have a good point in that cooling is not all  
that inimical to black coffee because coffee alters its flavor profile  
(often interestingly) as it cools.  I concede this because I quite  
often find myself drinking the free 12-ouncer that comes with a bean  
purchase at Metropolis; I sometimes take a few sips during the few  
blocks' drive back home, forget about it, and find nuances in the  
cooler brew to which I return that weren't apparent when it was very  
hot.  But still, 20 ounces? Hey, I love my caffeine, but I have to  
leave room in my bloodstream for a few shots of my beloved 'spro if I  
don't want to bounce off the walls.
On Jul 10, 2008, at 3:55 PM, Bryan Wray wrote:
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Sandy Andina
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17) From: Michael I
"...if a pint of brew at a time won't do, you probably have a problem that
goes beyond wanting a nice-size cuppa joe."  
Hmm.  I wonder what my problem is, then.  Most mornings, I make and drink a
full vac pot (5 4-oz cup size, or 20 oz.).  And that's usually after the
breakfast cap.
If I could make more at a time, I'd probably have a trenta instead of a
venti.
I'm used to "regular" people telling me I have a problem, but I thought I'd
be accepted here on the list...
-AdkMike
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18) From: Sandy Andina
No problemo, dude--I usually don't stop at one cup, but I do usually  
break up the pot's worth a cup at a time, to keep it hot & fresh.  (My  
method of choice for more than one cup is either a Technivorm KBTS 8- 
cupper brewed into the carafe or a French press decanted into a carafe  
or brewed in a thermal press).
Guess as a short person I downsize my portions  
overall......unfortunately, I just tend to repeat ingesting them....
On Jul 10, 2008, at 4:29 PM, Michael I wrote:
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19) From: Allon Stern
On Jul 10, 2008, at 5:29 PM, Michael I wrote:
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Just go for the benna :)
(and don't forget the mint - they're wafer thin!)
-
allon
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20) From: Peter Genuardi
Just to close the loop, yes they are phasing out all of their 20oz coffee
and espresso beverages at Intelligentsia.http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-wed-intelligentsia-coffee-jul09,0,2911561.story  - Peter
On 7/10/08, Allon Stern  wrote:
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21) From: Ed Needham
Lets see what the cost of their largest offerings will be when this all 
shakes out.
I'm betting it will be very close to what the 20oz drinks are today.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

22) From: John Mac
Nothing more than a marketing angle and it's getting him free publicity.
IMHO
Cheers,
John in Nor Cal
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 9:13 PM, Ed Needham  wrote:
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23) From: Bryan Wray
John,
I really couldn't disagree more.  I'll just leave it at that because I don't want to cause an argument or step where I shouldn't and say things I shouldn't, but you've obviously never met or talked to Doug if you think that all he is trying to do is spin a marketing angle.  You couldn't be more wrong.
Also, Ed, regarding the cost of a 16oz vs a 20oz, there's only about a .25-.35 difference now, so they are already pretty darn close and yeah, I think they'll probably creep up there a little.
-Bry
"It is my hope that people realize that coffee is more than just a caffeine delivery service, it can be a culinary art"- Chris Owens of Cafe Grumpy in NYC.
--- On Fri, 7/11/08, John Mac  wrote:
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24) From: miKe mcKoffee
Sure it's a marketing "ploy". A ploy to market coffee for it's quality and
taste and variety of tastes rather than something that needs to be drowned
in milk and sugars to be palatable. Intelligentsia is the not the first to
make this type of move. It's something I personally have been wrestling
with. It somehow seems bizarre to me when a customer orders a 16oz White
Chocolate Mocha and later comments how "the coffee" is so much better the
*$. Happened again with a couple of middle aged woman yesterday. One of the
two came back today and brought here daughter. Should I follow the "bleeding
edge" group that only offers smaller and some offer no flavors except
homemade chocolate sauce (already do that) and home made vanilla? I think
not. The key to me is using ingredients in balance. That is treating coffee
as culinary to me, not limiting what you'll allow customers to order. A
white chocolate mocha doesn't have to be over poweringly white chocolate to
be good, quite the contrary.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIIhttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/Homeroast mailing list">http://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVII.htmSweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/Homeroast mailing list
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25) From: Scott Miller
I made a wh. choc. mocha for a customer today. First one I've made in some
time.
Curiosity got the best of me, so I made one for myself. I do like white
chocolate, but thought the Ghiradelli sauce completely overwhelmed the
'spro. Back to Americanos for me!
cheers,
Scott
On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 9:43 PM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
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26) From: Bryan Wray
Ghirdelli's white chocolate powder is much better than their sauce in my opinion.  Just a quick little .02.
-Bry
"It is my hope that people realize that coffee is more than just a caffeine delivery service, it can be a culinary art"- Chris Owens of Cafe Grumpy in NYC.
--- On Fri, 7/11/08, Scott Miller  wrote:
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27) From: miKe mcKoffee
Agreed, I've used the Ghir' WC powder for years. Regardless it's still
important not to overwhelm a WC latte with too much WC or whatever flavoring
additive is used. Balance. Just a quick little .03:-)
miKe
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28) From: Scott Miller
And now i'm a nickel's worth more knowledgeable about the mysteries of the
elusive foufou drink perfection methods that work. Thanks!
cheers,
Scott
On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 11:54 PM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
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29) From: Tim TenClay
I don't usually drink lattes, but my wife gets them whenever we're at a shop
(and I make her one almost every morning) - we've found that the trick is to
ask for "half the flavoring" - otherwise the basic assumption seems to use
too much.
Grace and peace,
  `tim
On 7/11/08, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
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Rev. Tim TenClay, NATA #253
Dunningville Reformed Church (www.dunningville.org)
Blog:http://lexorandi.tenclay.orgHomeroast mailing list
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