HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Koratie WP and DP (23 msgs / 634 lines)
1) From: sci
I have roasted Koratie WP and DP and drank quite a bit of each from
AP/FP/Drip. I waxed euphoric on the DP in "Tale of Two DPs" post yesterday:
it's intoxicating, mesmerizing.
The WP is cleaner crisper and it has fruit notes, but tough to say which
flavor is coming through. I really want to roast another batch or two before
I make any final conclusions because I fear something went wrong.
Here's what happened. In IR2, the bean was looking rather darkish BEFORE
first crack ended. I know there's lots of chaff and it can throw you off.
I waited until first cracked trailed off and hit cool and popped the chaff
collector to rapidly cool. Bean mass Temp probe read 405F at end of roast.
Result: uneven roast, and most beans were too dark for what should have been
C or C+. To me, it looked like FC, too dark for this beauty. Still, it
tastes good. Bottom of the cup has chocolate notes, but not the fruitopia of
the DP.
But why would I get FC at 405F when I usually get C?
Well, I'm going to roast the next batch outside with chaff collector off to
get a slower ramp and an extended first crack.
Ivan
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2) From: Ken B
sci...
FYI...I roasted two 151 gram batches of both the DP and WP in my IR2 
yesterday and today, and I noticed the same thing on the DP.  But I took 
the temp to 422 and 424 (thermocouple) for the DP before I hit cool.  A 
LOT (understatement) of chaff, and beans were all over the place in 
color, from dark like FC+ to white, but no oil spots.  I culled the 
really pale ones.  WP was also a lot of chaff, but seemed to roast up a 
bit more evenly and I took 1 roast to 424 (for direct comparison to the 
DP) and one to 439.  Total roast times between 12.5 and 15 minutes.  I 
will sample the first two roasts tomorrow and/or Sunday.  This is by far 
the most chaff of any coffee I have roasted in the IR2.
Best Regards,
Ken B
sci wrote:
<Snip>
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3) From: Ken B
WOW!  I just cupped the WP and DP, both roasted 36 hours ago to 424 
degrees, side by side.  What a distinct difference!  I realized as soon 
as I tasted them that these were WAY beyond my limited ability to 
describe, so I will leave the descriptions to more experienced cuppers 
and give you my impressions of the differences. 
Right off the bat, the ground coffees smell different.  One of 
earthiness and rich loam (WP), the other of exotic flowers and spices 
(DP). The wet aroma followed the same lines...the WP being more 'refined 
and civilized, like a nice males cologne' and the DP being more 'wild 
and exotic, almost wanton'.  When I tasted these, the first thought on 
the WP was "very nice, rounded edges, full flavor, refined' and for the 
DP was 'WOW!!!'  I really was at a complete loss to try to describe what 
I was tasting with the DP.  Floral, yes.  Fruit, yes.  After many, many 
conflicting thoughts, I finally settled for ripe kiwi. (like REAL kiwi, 
not supermarket)  A bit of astringency, with a sweet, sensual overtone 
to it.  But this only hints at what is there.  It really is one of the 
most sensual coffees I have ever tasted, and one of the most frustrating 
since I cannot find words to describe it.  It is almost like the 
aftertaste in your nose and mouth after kissing your wifes neck when she 
wears that wonderful perfume you like so much.  (ladies, please forgive 
this analogy, but it strikes me as very true here.  I have no idea what 
the female equivalent is.)
Now, as many of you know, I am not a huge fan of the African coffees.  
And while I would not want to drink this every day, this DP is 
absolutely startling in it's flavor combination!  I WILL have some of 
this on hand (if it is still available) just for special coffee times.  
The WP would make a really nice blend with the spicy, full bodied 
Indonesian coffees I like so much.  It is a bit light of body for me to 
want to drink it as a stand alone coffee, but it also is a wonderfully 
full, intriguingly flavored coffee.  As a matter of fact, I think both 
of these would be good with a bit of body from the Indonesians.
So, that is my two cents on them...from an admittedly inexperienced 
taster.  I do however know what I like, and I like both of these!
Best Regards,
Ken B
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4) From: Robert Flanery
When I first tasted a cup of the dry process, I couldn't help but think of
squash blossoms and honey suckle.  Anyone who has sucked the nectar from a
honey suckle flower will get what I mean.  The squash blossom taste is
reminescent of some things a friend used to prepare from their garden.  The
DP is certainly a slap in the face.  I drank a pot of the WP last night at
work and I don't think anyone really got a clue of why I was in such a good
mood.  I really like that coffee quite a lot, and will have to get more than
the two pounds I purchased to initially sample it.  I agree that is a smooth
and elegant coffee.  I will serve it with dessert to friends.
For today, back into the Finca San Jose Ocana again.  3 days rest and it
seems quite excellent today.  My favorite coffee without doubt.  I simply
adore it.  And it is a pretty easy bean to work with in an air popper.
On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Ken B  wrote:
<Snip>
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5) From: Ken B
Heh, I just read Tom's description of these coffees, and I see what an 
absolute beginner I am at tasting and identifying tastes.  Bottom line, 
I enjoy coffees that I enjoy, and I like both of these. ;-)  I was not 
able to identify the flavor combinations that Tom describes up front, 
but I can see how he arrived at them.  These are very complex coffees, 
with wonderful flavor combinations!  To me, these truly approach wine 
status in their complexity.
Best Regards,
Ken B
Ken B wrote:
<Snip>
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6) From: Ken B
*ding-ding-ding* Yes, that is what I was looking for! I think the floral 
and sweet part of honeysuckle is exactly right on this, and if you add 
the slight astringency and full sweetness of ripe kiwi, it approaches 
what I was trying to describe.  Simply an unexpected combination from 
coffee, at least to me!!  Thank you for helping me identify what I was 
trying to think of. :-)
Best Regards,
Ken B
Robert Flanery wrote:
<Snip>
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7) From: Sandy Andina
On Aug 2, 2008, at 10:58 AM, Ken B wrote:
<Snip>
Not quite sure what you mean--Isn't a supermarket kiwi "real" and  
doesn't a kiwi you buy in the produce department ripen over time?   
I've gotten specialty greengrocers' kiwis (obviously, you're not gonna  
find them in an upper Midwestern farmers' market) and they were a  
little riper (but probably because they were warehoused longer). Do  
they let kiwis fully bush-ripen in California, Hawaii (or Israel, from  
where many kiwis in American markets are imported)?
Sandy Andina
www.myspace.com/sandyandina
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8) From: John Mac
When I was a foreman on a small Kiwi farm in Northern California, we
harvested based on sugar content of the fruit, period. Same type of gizmo
that vintners use to check sugar content of grapes.
Cheers,
John in Nor Cal
On 8/2/08, Sandy Andina  wrote:
<Snip>
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9) From: John Mac
Refractometer is the term I was looking for, it's been 20+ since my time on
the Kiwi farm during the fall harvest, of my college years.
John
On 8/2/08, John Mac  wrote:
<Snip>
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10) From: Frank Parth
<Snip>
Sandy,
Kiwifruit from the supermarket is "real", just as apricots from the supermarket are "real". But there is a tremendous 
difference in flavor between one sun ripened on the tree and eaten fresh and one that is picked green so that it 
travels well and eventually "ripens" in the store.
Friends in the California Rare Fruit Growers club grow kiwifruit here in southern California and it's wonderful. I've 
tried growing it, but you need both a male and a female bush, AND they have to blossom at the same time. For me the 
female was always ready long before the male was so I never got any fruit.
That seems to describe other parts of my life also.
Frank Parth
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11) From: ramona cramer
--- On Sat, 8/2/08, Frank Parth  wrote:
From: Frank Parth 
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Koratie WP and DP
To: homeroast
Date: Saturday, August 2, 2008, 4:19 PM
<Snip>
"real" and doesn't a kiwi you buy in the produce department 
<Snip>
not gonna find them in an upper Midwestern farmers' 
<Snip>
warehoused longer). Do they let kiwis fully 
<Snip>
American markets are imported)?
<Snip>
Sandy,
Kiwifruit from the supermarket is "real", just as apricots from the
supermarket are "real". But there is a tremendous 
difference in flavor between one sun ripened on the tree and eaten fresh and
one that is picked green so that it 
travels well and eventually "ripens" in the store.
Friends in the California Rare Fruit Growers club grow kiwifruit here in
southern California and it's wonderful. I've 
tried growing it, but you need both a male and a female bush, AND they have to
blossom at the same time. For me the 
female was always ready long before the male was so I never got any fruit.
That seems to describe other parts of my life also.
Frank Parth
Hello,
Please excuse me, I just lurk on the list but if you do not mind smaller, smooth skinned fruit
there are two Arguta Chinensis sold as self fertile-'Issai' and 'Lone Star'. In the UK 
there is a kiwi sold as Actinidia deliciosa 'Jenny' which is advertised as self fertile.
I have not seen it here.
Just a thought.
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12) From: Ken B
hi Sandy,
Perhaps I should have said 'ripe' vs. real, but yes, I actually have had 
the pleasure of eating kiwifruit that was ripened naturally, and not 
picked green.  Other fruit I would class like this include strawberries 
(wild vs. cultivated), bananas (the difference in sweetness in tree 
ripened vs. green ripened) and peaches (again, the difference in 
sweetness and juiciness in tree ripened vs. green ripened).  A naturally 
ripened kiwi is sweeter and juicier than those that you will get in the 
supermarket.  But you are correct that the supermarket ones are 'real' 
kiwifruit, I just do not consider them so. If you ever get the chance to 
taste a naturally ripened kiwi, take it if you like supermarket ones and 
wish to be spoiled. :-)
Best Regards,
Ken B
Sandy Andina wrote:
<Snip>
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13) From: Ken B
Thanks Frank...that is exactly what I meant.  I too have had the 
pleasure of eating naturally ripened kiwifruit, and it sort of ruined 
the supermarket kind for me.  They were much sweeter and juicier than 
the ones most people are familiar with.  However, Sandy was correct.  If 
I use phrases like that, I should probably explain them. ;-)
Best Regards,
Ken B
Frank Parth wrote:
<Snip>
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14) From: Robert Flanery
Having experienced evactly what you are saying about ripe I can certainly
say that tree ripened and freshly picked is head and shoulders above in
almost any fruit choice.  My best friend in Seattle had Kiwi's that grew in
his yard, and I used to get ripe ones by the bag full.  Wonderful, and not
at all like what I get in GA.
And having family in the Philippines, I can say that fresh bananas straight
from the tree are wonderful.  The same holds true for the mangoes (oh, the
Manila Mangoes!).  Perhaps your words were poorly chosen, but the spirit of
the conversation was not lost on me.
Now if I could get a good mango from my father in laws front yard.  Juice
running down my face...
On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 9:04 PM, Ken B  wrote:
<Snip>
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15) From: raymanowen
"I do however know what I like, and I like both of these!"
Whoa! After your description, these are on my Covet List! -and I am a big
fan of Africans, Centrals, S/A, and everything else on the Offering List @
SM.
I really tuned up my roasting on Panamas. The results of a wide variety of
roasts were intriguing, and I definitely favor dark roasts at the outset, if
I have no other advice.
My Celtic Critic honey woke up to the pleasant fragrance of dark chocolate
and cinnamon as I roasted Costa Rica Naranjo Caracol Peaberry at sunrise to
beat the heat. Got 1st Crack going, then stopped in deference to the C+
rating on the container notes and promise of several degrees on the day's
weather fivecast.
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?
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16) From: sci
15 min? Ok. I'm ticked. How'n tarnation do you get an IR2 to go to 15 min
without starting a fire?
I don't care how I program it, where I put it, how many extension cords,
whether it is blue blazes outside or winter wonderland; my IR2  w i l l  n o
t  get to 10 minutes on a C+ roast. C+ is usually around 7 min unless I take
the upper chaff collector completely off. Even decaf beans with no chaff
roast very fast. The only thing I haven't tried is Allon's exhaust fan
method. I can only chalk this up to poor manufacturing and QC that puts out
such variation in machines. I know line voltage is an issue. I hope somebody
makes a superb fluid bed roaster soon for the homeroaster. Still, the IR2
makes the best coffee I've ever had, so I can't complain much.
Anyway, back to the Koraties.
My WP, like yours, was very irregular in roast. The best way to tell what
roast you have in these situations is to grind the beans and examine the
color of the grind. After 2 days of rest the WP bursted out of the cup with
trumpets. She really sings after some rest. The DP seems ready to rumble
after even 4 hours of rest.
Chaff? You want to see chaff? Roast some Don Pepe. A mere 4 oz of it clogged
up the whole roaster!! On cool, when the fan blows full speed, the beans
were not even moving. I'd say Don Pepe DP makes twice the chaff as either
Koratie. This is one I roast now with the collector off.
Ivan
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 21:20:04 -0500
From: Ken B 
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Koratie WP and DP
To: homeroast
Message-ID: <4893C454.1010205>
Content-Type: text/plain; charsetO-8859-1; format=flowed
sci...
FYI...I roasted two 151 gram batches of both the DP and WP in my IR2
yesterday and today, and I noticed the same thing on the DP.  But I took
the temp to 422 and 424 (thermocouple) for the DP before I hit cool.  A
LOT (understatement) of chaff, and beans were all over the place in
color, from dark like FC+ to white, but no oil spots.  I culled the
really pale ones.  WP was also a lot of chaff, but seemed to roast up a
bit more evenly and I took 1 roast to 424 (for direct comparison to the
DP) and one to 439.  Total roast times between 12.5 and 15 minutes.  I
will sample the first two roasts tomorrow and/or Sunday.  This is by far
the most chaff of any coffee I have roasted in the IR2.
Best Regards,
Ken B
sci wrote:
<Snip>
yesterday:
<Snip>
before
<Snip>
been
<Snip>
of
<Snip>
to
<Snip>
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17) From: raymanowen
"my IR2  w i l l  not  get to 10 minutes on a C+ roast. C+ is usually around
7 min unless I..."
400g of Costa Rica Naranjo Caracol Peaberry got to a fragrant C+ dark
chocolate, cinnamon aroma after first light Thursday. 17:25 with a HG/BM.
Real time control is the answer.
The early Steinway confirmed what the proboscis was telling- dark chocolate
at first, with almost a cinnamon roll in the middle to back of the palate.
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?
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18) From: Ken B
Heh...I did qualify it by saying of coffee I had roasted.  I've never 
roasted the Don Pepe, and may not wish to based on that review. ;-)
I am going to a friends place today to try the WP and DP in a vacuum 
pot.  It should be interesting, since now they are now on 2.5 days of rest.
Best Regards,
Ken B
sci wrote:
<Snip>
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19) From: Ken B
Hi Robert.  I have family in Thailand, where there are many fruits that 
we never get to taste here.  And I agree 100%...the mangos and bananas 
there are very different and IMHO, much better, than here. The papayas 
are different too. Wonderful fruits there include mangosteen, longans, 
guava, leechee, and many others.  Heh, but I still cannot get near 
durian...the smell is just too overpowering!
Since you live in Georgia, you would understand the difference between a 
tree ripened peach and what we get in supermarkets too. :-)  (Good 
peaches in S. Carolina at the N. Carolina line too when they are in 
season...forget the name of the little town, but their water tower is a 
peach)
But what I was going for in the description was that naturally ripe 
kiwifruit has a bit of the astringency you get a lot of in the 
supermarket variety, but also has a nice sweetness you do not get in the 
supermarket variety usually. In my defense, I DID say I was at a loss as 
to how to describe this coffee, and I DID say I am by no means a 
'cupper', professional or otherwise. I guess I should have put that 
disclaimer in bold italics, and labeled it as 'opinion'. :-D
Best Regards,
Ken B
Robert Flanery wrote:
<Snip>
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20) From: Lynne
Hey, Ken -
Ken B said:
<Snip>
Oh, my - that would be heaven for me! Traveling to Thailand would be, for
me, a dream come true... for now, though, I feel so lucky to be able to
'travel' there through Thai cooking videos I've found online (although, with
all that delectable fruit available, I could live on just the fruit forever,
I think). Sad to say, my favorite, Enjoy Thai Food, has pulled their street
vendor cooking videos.. that was my absolute favorite..
<Snip>
Only tried that once, in a smoothie at a local restaurant w/friends - glad I
tried it, but we thought it tasted like onions. Others rave about it, so I
still wonder if this too, depends on how fresh it might be.
But what I was going for in the description was that naturally ripe
<Snip>
I think you did a terrific job describing. There is a world of difference
between local, fresh fruit - even veggies, and the tasteless or bitter
varieties that are shipped in from afar. Being part Sicilian, I immediately
think of artichokes and eggplant; organic, straight from the garden tastes
like different plants entirely. Mmm...
Your description, btw, is far more descriptive than mine would be. Even
after two years of homeroasting, I'll sit down with my morning brew, and
think.. "Hmm - tastes like.... coffee!!" But it'll range from 'wowser' to
'yuck-what-the-h-did-I-do?!' I have a long way to go, but realize I may
never get the descriptive comparisons down.
Just glad that lately I'm (finally) back at wowser...
:D
Lynne
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21) From: David Martin
On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 6:52 AM, Lynne  wrote:
<Snip>
...
<Snip>
Not the same. To understand the experience, you really need to have
the actual fruit on its own. Hard to find this side of the Pacific,
though you can get them frozen at various Asian groceries here in the
SF Bay Area.
Regarding the smell, to me it resembles rotten chicken, although
paradoxically I don't find it to be all that offensive (at least when
the smell is coming from a durian and not an actual rotten chicken.)
I'm reminded of the account (hopefully apocryphal) of some African
indigenous people feasting on the bloated corpse of a hippopotamus
which they found. When asked how they could stand to eat it, they
replied, "we are eating the meat, not the smell."
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22) From: Robert Flanery
I did not find Durian to be palatable.  Oersonal preference.
My father in law, however, adores it.  That and Jackfruit are his personal
favorites.
Ken, I think you did a marvelous job of describing what you experienced in
the cup.  I am a rank amateur at this, and can only stab blindly at what I
taste as well.  But as you say, I know what I like...
Lynne, I agree 100% with EVERYTHING you say in your post.  It is right along
my thoughts.  Nicely said.
My father in the PI took me for a walk in their fields and orchards, and it
was only a patter of minutes before I understood that there is alot to be
said for experience.  He never graduated from high school, but he has a
greater understanding of agriculture in the tropics than I do, and I am a
horticulturist.  He quickly pointed out several things that I missed, and
was very quick to show me how they affected the quality of the fruit.  They
raise Guava, Papaya, Banana, Mango, and corn as a feed and commercial crop.
It was only in the corn that I had any edge on production.
And a mango fresh from the tree when it is fully ripe, eaten while standing
among the trees, is something that cannot be described with my limited
skills.  The same holds true for Peaches here ni the SE.  I used to drive
south from Athens into Madison and beyond when I was in college, and
purchase peaches from the road side stands that the farmers would set up.
You could literally smell the sweetness as you pulled up.  And the feel of
the warm sun on my face, and the juice running down my chin brings back some
very nice memories of the past...
The beauty of modern day agriculture is not that we can do things better,
but that we have developed ways of transporting and storing foods long past
their natural cycle.  I am thankful to get an apple out of season, or grapes
from Chile.  If they are not the best, I just remember that my grandmother
never got any fruit that did not come out of the bottom below the farmhouse
where she was born and raised.  We have come a long way, but some things
have fallen by the wayside in the name of progress.
That is one of the things I appreciate about SM.  They seem to genuinly take
an interest in the people that are producing these products, and pay them
the price it takes to encourage them to put more effort into their methods
of production and harvest. Thanks guys.
Rob
On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 12:43 PM, David Martin wrote:
<Snip>
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23) From: Ken B
Hey Rob,
Yes, yes, and yes.  You got it right on.  About the fruit, about the 
people, and especially about SM!  Well said!
Best Regards,
Ken B
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