HomeRoast Digest


Topic: White Coffee? Super light roasted (47 msgs / 1292 lines)
1) From: Edward Bourgeois
I was at a local roastery today demonstrating my roaster and "White
Coffee" was mentioned. I had not heard of it before but is very light
roast not even to first crack. It has a new popularity I heard. Does
anyone know more about this?
Ed B.
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2) From: Gary Foster
I know my very first roast *ever* just barely got to first crack and  
I, being paranoid, stopped it right when I heard the outlier snaps.
It was a waste of an otherwise perfectly good Yirg.  Made me ill  
drinking it, it was so grassy.  If that's "white coffee" I think I'll  
pass.
-- Gary F.
On Aug 7, 2008, at 3:53 PM, Edward Bourgeois wrote:
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3) From: raymanowen
" [White Coffee] has a new popularity I heard. Does anyone know more about
this?"
Yes- It will be the result of trying to entice every T, D & Harry to
proclaim the excellencies of your coffee roast. Suck up all the real coffee.
White Coffee is in your future.
The popularity is so new, it's still at the starting line.
It doesn't even show up on any drink survey yet. It has Zero Popularity!
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
It's not real until the Goats Dance...
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4) From: Alicia Frangos
Sounds like someone is looking for a new marketing gimmick!  I can't imagine
anyone enjoying the taste...
Alicia
On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 1:11 AM,  wrote:
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5) From: David Martin
Uh... Yuck?
Is this some sort of conspiracy perpetuated by *$ et al, to help
perpetuate the myth that darker=better?
On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Edward Bourgeois  wrote:
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6) From: David Martin
On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 4:03 PM, Gary Foster  wrote:
<Snip>
Ditto. I ruined some yirg once last year, in my sole (failed) attempt
at roasting on the electric stovetop using a cast iron pan. Grassy and
sour. I think I forced myself to drink it anyway, but I can't remember
- must have erased it from my memory.
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7) From: David Martin
Well, OK, in all seriousness, I did a quick google search and found a
roaster who produces "white coffee" :http://www.ancoracoffee.com/Store/Product/328/Cafe_Bianco_(White_Coffee).aspxThey say the use a particular robusta, and in all fairness, they make
no claims that this is comparable to properly roasted coffee. I think
some brave soul on this list (not me) should order some and report
back on the experience. :-)
On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Edward Bourgeois  wrote:
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8) From: Tim TenClay
I called them to see if they'd sell any of the beans "unground" but they
won't... the lady said essentially, we don't sell it that way because
"they'd basically break a normal grinder."  I asked how they ground them,
and she said "we have a really powerful grinder we use just for that."
She may be right, but I didn't order any.  Part of the interest was that I
wanted to see what the beans looked like.
Grace and Peace,
  `itm
On 8/8/08, David Martin  wrote:
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9) From: David Martin
Makes me wonder what the demographic is - who drinks this stuff? I'm
thinking its strictly a novelty and they don't get many repeat orders
of that variety. Profit margin's probably huge, so if a reasonable
proportion of their regular customers try it once, maybe it's worth
it, at least from a revenue point of view.
On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Tim TenClay  wrote:
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10) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
It's pre-first-crack coffee roasted slowly, and they use very low 
acid coffees usually. I thought they used clean brazil types, washed 
brazils and such, that taste like next-to-nothing with normal roast 
treatment. I could be wrong, but that's my guess. There is something 
to say about the grainy flavors of super light roasts. But it gets 
old quickly.
Tom
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            Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting  -  Tom & Maria
                      http://www.sweetmarias.com                Thompson Owen george_at_sweetmarias.com
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             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - tom_at_sweetmarias.com
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11) From: kevin creason
Hmm.
I'm also remembering an article from a Japanese researcher who found a
chemical mostly present in unroasted beans (but also somewhat in lighter
roasts) that helped burn or prevent fat.
On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 4:39 PM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee <
sweetmarias> wrote:
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12) From: Doug Boutell
Yes and it reminds me of walking around all day with a straw taste
in my mouth. It does get old very quick.
Doug
Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee wrote:
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13) From: Joseph Robertson
There is a small commercial roaster near here that produces (roasts) for a
local coffee bar what they call white bean. I just hired a fellow who only
drinks it. He can't stand the taste of coffee as we know it. He likes his
four shot mocha drink. He believes that the caffeine content is much higher.
I tend to doubt that. He likes the grainy taste. In this town of 3800 he is
the second person I have heard mention this.
I could see this being a fad among those who don't like the taste of coffee
in general.
JoeR
On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 10:28 PM, Doug Boutell wrote:
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14) From: raymanowen
If you really don't like coffee from normal sources, I have seen stuff
processed in a different way. I just hope the cat wasn't sick.
Niagara Falls couldn't even wash that stuff enough for me. Our rabbits made
similar stuff and didn't even have to start out with any coffee beans...
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder? Parade Rest!
On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 12:25 AM, Joseph Robertson wrote:
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15) From: Lynne
http://tinyurl.com/38vxjl:P
Lynne (IMNSO)
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16) From:
Ha 
Dean De Crisce
Sent from a Treo phone.

17) From: Morris Nelson
Look at all the people in the USA that was convinced that coffee out of a
can was better...

18) From: Joseph Robertson
I guess it's a niche, small but there. I just heard another person from our
local fair walking by saying I bet they have white bean coffee. Blew me away
to hear that from the side walk. By the way the espresso drive thru they
were referring to does not serve this under roasted bean/coffee drink but
the coffee shop down the street does.
Small town of 3K. Go fiqure. Odd. I wonder if you find it in the larger
cites?
JoeR
On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 10:19 AM, Alicia Frangos wrote:
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19) From: Edward Bourgeois
Joe
Are you going to give it a try at the shop you mentioned?
Ed B.
On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 12:31 AM, Joseph Robertson  wrote:
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20) From: Joseph Robertson
I hate to waste top shelf Organic/Freetrade beans. Such a small market and
all....
I might play with it because the shop down the street sells it.
JoeR
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 9:49 PM, Edward Bourgeois wrote:
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21) From: Edward Bourgeois
I meant just trying a cup at the shop that is serving it now. As Tom
mentioned, it would be a very bland and super low acid bean that would
work best. A very fast grown and early harvest Brazilian from soils
weak in available minerals and vitamins. That way only the coffee
grain characteristics would come out. And as I think Tom implied the
shelf life would be very short. I've thought of trying coffee beans,
finely ground, as a baking additive at varying roast stages pre and
post first crack. Again I think a bland bean would work best
especially in a pre first c.
Ed
On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Joseph Robertson  wrote:
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22) From: Joseph Robertson
Ed,
What kind of baking would you be trying this with?
JoeR
On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 8:37 AM, Edward Bourgeois wrote:
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23) From: Lynne
Have to jump in here with my 2 cents (or, with inflation, may that my
$1.25..ha)
I love using finely ground homeroast in biscotti. For those, I like a strong
(esp.
chocolatey type of bean). Sometimes combine it with chocolate chips, and or
anise flavoring.
mmm...
Lynne
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24) From: Edward Bourgeois
Not sure, but am always interested in different uses of agricultural
commodities. Have been looking into Torrefacto coffee for the same
reason.
Ed
On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 10:44 PM, Joseph Robertson  wrote:
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25) From: Raymond Hays
Don't know if any one has ever replaced water with dark roast coffee when=
 cooking a pot roast..boy is it good!  Also, I use coffee as an ingredien=
t in my rubs for steaks, fish, etc.
----- Original Message ----
From: Lynne 
To: homeroast
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:52:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] White Coffee? Super light roasted
Have to jump in here with my 2 cents (or, with inflation, may that my
$1.25..ha)
I love using finely ground homeroast in biscotti. For those, I like a strong
(esp.
chocolatey type of bean). Sometimes combine it with chocolate chips, and or
anise flavoring.
mmm...
Lynne
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26) From: Lynne
Heard about it for rubs for steak - never heard of using it for fish - or
pot roast.
I will def. give a pot roast a try in the fall. Sounds strange, but what the
heck...
Lynne
On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Raymond Hays wrote:
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27) From: Joseph Robertson
Thanks Lynne,
I have a long way to go on the culinary side of Roasting, baking, cooking in
general.
JoeR
On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 4:52 AM, Lynne  wrote:
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28) From: Lynne
Joe -
Ah - but what a fun journey!
Lynne
On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Joseph Robertson wrote:
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29) From: Dennis
I first heard of it at Fort Lewis the coffee shop on base was touting it 
as double caffeine, I took one whiff of the pre-ground stuff and said no 
thanks smells like very stale peanuts....
Dennis
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30) From: Joseph Robertson
Dennis,
Now that I have my shop open I get inquirys every few days as to "do we
offer it here" I try and educate the folks from my view, my view being it is
a far cry from coffee I know.
As to a higher caffeine content? As far as I'm concerned, it is a myth. If
someboby can show me some #'s or research I'm open to it. In fact I want to
be able to tell my customers if it is true or not. Can you roast the
caffeine out of beans? Is there more caffeine in lighter roasts?
What do you say Alchemist John? Any one have the science on this?
JoeR
On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Dennis  wrote:
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31) From: Dennis
from my experence if you pul a roast at the start of first it will be 
lighter very hard to grind and taste like (excuse the sailor mouth) 
Crap!  I have tried most everything inn my roasts from before first all 
the way to charbucks and beyond just trying to learn (ask Java Jerry 
what I showed up with on his doorstep with as my first roast..LOL 
Spanish+++)
I haven't found anyhting to support a loss of caffeine at varying roast 
levels any body got that info?
Dennis
AKA
FC1 (SW/AW) DENNIS TRUE
DELTA COMPANY 9.0
JTF - GTMO
APO AE 0936
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32) From: Malcolm Staudinger
There is a place in the U District in Seattle, WA that is the only place 
I've visited that sells it, both in drinks and pre-ground. No luck 
replicating the unique and pleasant taste in a Moka pot or french press.
Malcolm
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33) From: Bill
So the conventional wisdom is that caffeine is "baked" off during roasting,
so the darker the roast, the more caffeine lost (I believe through
sublimation?).  I have seen that in multiple places.
However, I have also seen the claim that most caffeine is not lost during
roasting.  Let me say that again.  That, yes, some caffeine is lost, but not
a significant amount compared to what remains.  So if you have the same
amount (mass) of the same bean, you have more caffeine in the darker roast
(because you have more beans).
But then you can ask if it is higher by volume (how do you measure your
coffee, with a scale or a scoop?).  If the coffee expands past point X, do
you have more or less caffeine by volume in a darker roast vs. a lighter
roast?
This is interesting considering that it seems that roast profiles might
affect volume significantly...
So... do lighter roasts have more caffeine?  Yes.  A lot more?  Not that I
can find... a few mg here or there.  I don't know the numbers on white
coffee.
What affects caffeine more than anything?  I would say concentration.
 Double the amount of beans and you'll double the amount of caffeine!
 Unless...
AND, doesn't your caffeine concentration vary based on origin?  How bout
varietal?  Definitely species...
Oh yeah, I'm not a math guy or a science guy, just a hobbyist, so feel free
to point out multiple errors.  I love to learn!
bill in wyo
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34) From: Bill
Just saw this on a roast magazine back issue:http://www.roastmagazine.com/backissues/janfeb2005/caffeinecontrol.htmlBeyond selection of the green beans, the roaster is commonly thought to
control one more variable in the final caffeine content of the beans: the
roast level. Popular lore has always been that the darker the roast level,
the lower the caffeine content. This is not really the case, as caffeine
changes very little during the roasting process. Caffeine has a very stable
crystalline structure with a boiling point above 600 degrees Fahrenheit, far
above roasting temperatures, which rarely exceed 470 degrees Fahrenheit.
This means there is very little change to the caffeine during the roasting
process. The minimal amount of caffeine lost during roasting is attributable
to sublimation, which is the transition of a substance directly from its
solid state to its gaseous state, as commonly occurs with dry ice. Caffeine
undergoes this transition at around 350 degrees Fahrenheit. Since coffee is
roasted at temperatures above 350 degrees, a minimal amount of the caffeine
is lost this way during the roasting process.
    Although minimal caffeine is driven off or destroyed in the roasting
process, the bean undergoes major changes during roasting. This can confuse
the situation because the caffeine content per weight and per volume
changes—not because the caffeine changes, but because the size and the
weight of the bean changes. Ironically, because the bean loses weight
(mostly water) during roasting, the caffeine content by weight increases,
but because the bean increases in size during the roasting, the caffeine
content by volume decreases.
    It is fortunate that there are no requirements to label caffeine content
on packages of roasted beans. So many variables contribute to the caffeine
content of a single origin at a defined roast level that it is nearly
impossible to predict the content without decaffeinating the bean and
measuring the amount extracted. Now take differing cultivars from multiple
farms and multiple countries, throw in a little robusta for an espresso
blend, and you might need to put on another pot of coffee and call an
organic chemist.
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35) From: Edward Bourgeois
Probably the reason they advertise higher caffeine is that they use a
much lower grown, bland, low acid coffee to cut the edge tastes and
that would have more caffeine. Possibly a Robusta too.
farm
On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 7:37 PM, Bill  wrote:
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-- =
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
Amherst MA.http://www.aginclassroom.org/Homeroast mailing list">http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/ Co-President- Ma. Agriculture in the Classroomhttp://www.aginclassroom.org/Homeroast mailing list
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36) From: Bill
Wow, Ed, the way you sell it, I gotta get me some!
But yeah, that's a good question... is it really higher caffeine or just
touted as such?  dunno...
bill
On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Edward Bourgeois wrote:
<Snip>
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37) From: Edward Bourgeois
If it's a low grown Robusta it could have 2-3 times the caffeine
compared to many of the high growns we're used to getting from SM.
Ed B.
On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 11:59 PM, Bill  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
Amherst MA.http://www.aginclassroom.org/Homeroast mailing list">http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/ Co-President- Ma. Agriculture in the Classroomhttp://www.aginclassroom.org/Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

38) From: Joseph Robertson
Edward,
Have you really seen any advertising for white bean?  If you have and you
know who "they" are,  would you share it with the list. I have only heard
ill informed folks passing rumors of said higher caffeine. We have one very
small batch roaster a couple of miles from here who sells to a local coffee
shop. If I get the time I will ask her if she is roasting Robusta or
Arabica. You have me very curious now.
I would like to score some high quality Robusta for Espresso blending. Quite
costly for the good stuff just like Speciality grade Arabica.
JoeR
On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Edward Bourgeois wro=
te:
<Snip>
he
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s,
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ee.com
<Snip>
ee.com
<Snip>
-- =
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and pallet reform.
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee=.com
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39) From: Joseph Robertson
Thanks Bill for the link and incite. I love the science of the black gold we
call coffee.
JoeR
On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 4:37 PM, Bill  wrote:
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-- =
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and pallet reform.
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee=.com
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40) From: Edward Bourgeois
JoeR
I just did a quick google and found this example and they do use a
blend of Robustas and say it is higher caffeine.http://www.ancoracoffee.com/Store/Product/328/Cafe_Bianco_(White_Coffee).as=px
On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 1:41 AM, Joseph Robertson  wro=
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ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
-- =
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
Amherst MA.http://www.aginclassroom.org/Homeroast mailing list">http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/ Co-President- Ma. Agriculture in the Classroomhttp://www.aginclassroom.org/Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee=.com
Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820

41) From: Edward Bourgeois
ps I disagree with them that the extra caffeine comes from the extra
light roast. It's from the type of beans used.
On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 2:00 AM, Edward Bourgeois  wr=
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fee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
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-- =
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
Amherst MA.http://www.aginclassroom.org/Homeroast mailing list">http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/ Co-President- Ma. Agriculture in the Classroomhttp://www.aginclassroom.org/Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee=.com
Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820

42) From: Joseph Robertson
Edward,
Thank you for your search. I had no idea the rumor had any base in fact. I
mean the advertising going with it. I knew the caffeine difference with
Robusta in fact I often wondered if part of the move to Arabica was the fact
that in the longevity curve or the time caffeine buzz stays with you is much
longer than with Arabica. I did read this research in Roast magazine or
another pro publication.
I'd like to think the move to Arabica producing plants and farms has to do
with the huge taste differance. Although it does take a lot more Arabica
coffee to keep or maintain the buzz or caffine level in the human system. At
least acording to the study I saw. I can't drink it except in small doses.
Ahh, now I know why my mom was so tidy and kept the house so nice when I was
a kid. The old Robusta Folgers....:^)
JoeR
On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 11:03 PM, Edward Bourgeois wr=
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ee.com
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ee.com
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ee.com
<Snip>
-- =
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and pallet reform.
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee=.com
Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820

43) From: Kris McN
There was a discussion awhile ago on the list about caffeine content
relative to roast level.  Alchemist John posted the following:
"And here I am.  I did do a rough study some time ago.   I will try
and choose my words carefully here.
What I found was the water extractable caffeine plotted on a mg/kg
basis (non-corrected 'wet' weight of roasted beans) vs roast time was
semi-gaussian (the level rose then fell) with an apex somewhere
around Full City.
I did not correct or even take into account the density change.  I
weighted out ground coffee, "french pressed" it, then micro-extracted
the caffeine from the water (coffee) with MeCL2, and analyzed via GC/MS.
...
What Brian was alluding to about the caffeine was a hypothesis on my
part only.  The caffeine was quite low for "under roasted" beans and
roughly corresponded to how hard/difficult they were to grind.  I
don't have much belief that caffeine is actually created during the
roasting process, so the only other explanation I see is that it is
simply not available for extraction by being bound up in the (hard)
cell matrix.
It might be fun to do a more rigorous study at some point and include
a normalization from green been weight and compare available, water
extractable caffeine vs total caffeine (extracted with solvent and a
sonic cell disrupter)."
Best,
Kris McN
On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 6:24 AM, Joseph Robertson wrot=
e:
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Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee=.com
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44) From: Brian Kamnetz
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X2l0ZW1JZD03ODIw

45) From: Bill
Malcolm,
Have you tried white coffee?  It sounds like it from your post...  So any
review?  Do you like it?  What's it like?
I wasn't interested but now I am.  Oh, and do you get a caffeine speed from
it?  Robusta, yes?
bill
On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 2:57 PM, Malcolm Staudinger 

46) From: Malcolm Staudinger
A really earthy flavor, maybe a bit of grassy flavor as well. No acidity 
at all, very little body. Undrinkable straight due to bitterness. All of 
the drinks at the Sureshot are served with dairy and some sort of flavor 
shot as well. Matches really well with cinnamon and nutmeg. Ground, it 
smells a lot like peanuts with a weird smell on top, sort of spicy chili 
pepper like, but this doesn't come through in the brew at all. Honestly, 
mixed in the drinks they way they do it you don't get much flavor coming 
through at all, it's all dominated by the other stuff.
I still have some of it, I'm sure it's bad by now, been in the freezer 
for 1+ years:http://flickr.com/photos/vertigoacid/2918802299/http://flickr.com/photos/vertigoacid/2918801819/
Caffeine-wise, I'm the wrong person to ask, as I don't really get much 
of a caffeine effect even from energy drinks. I like white coffee but 
not as a competitor to the real stuff at all. It's completely different
Malcolm
Bill wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

47) From: Bill
Malcolm, Crazy!  Thanks for the photos.  Wouldn't have guessed it.  That's
pretty pale coffee!  Thanks for the report, too.
bill
On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 1:08 PM, Malcolm Staudinger 


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