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Topic: finding used commercial espresso machine (25 msgs / 652 lines)
1) From: Mike Chester
Several members of this list have mentioned buying used commercial machines and restoring them as projects.  Where do you find decent ones to start with?  I have been watching eBay and Craig's List and have not found anything interesting.  There is no way to know the real condition from reading the descriptions.  I know that buying used commercial machines can be a crap shoot.  They range in quality from a perfect sparkling gem to a POS.  Those of you on the left coast have a definite advantage as there are many more shops going into and out of business there.  I would prefer to find a single group machine which is somewhat rare and also want dual boilers.  (Not too picky huh?)  My ideal find would be a single group Linea.  Any suggestions?  I have a good prosumer machine now, so I don't need this - I am just looking for a project.  
Mike Chester
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2) From: Mike Koenig
Mike,
Machines do pop up on eBay, but from what I have seen, they tend to
get bid above what I'm willing to pay for something in unknown
condition.  I've seen a bunch of reviews on Coffeegeek for machines
bought on eBay and there are numerous stores of machines in "good
condition" turning out to be "project machines".
I have a search set up on Craigslist, that goes to an RSS feed (google
reader), so I can easily watch what shows up in my area for sale.
<Snip>
and a lot of them look like "project" machines.  (My search tries to
exclude all the furniture, shoes and cosmetics that show up as
"espresso" as in color).
There are also some dealers the specialize in liquidating restaurants
that sell machines here in the NY/NJ area (I see their ads on
craigslist all the time),  I assume other areas of the country have
similar operations.
--mike
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 5:37 PM, Mike Chester  wrote:
<Snip>
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3) From: Barry Luterman
I haven't lived in NY for a long time. I remember there were all sorts of
restaurant supply and resale shops on The Bowery. They are probably still
there and might be worth the trip.
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Mike Koenig  wrote:
<Snip>
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4) From: Michael Dhabolt
Single group, dual boiler machine - - single group Linea. Not too
picky, are you?:~)  I fully support your choice - - definately top of
the heap for a used machine. Unfortunately I've seen single group LMs
regularly selling for more than what you can find a three or four
group for.  The *$s move to superauto machines etc. have dumped a
tremendous quantity of larger machines onto the market .... which is
still keeping the price within, just barely, a realistic range. the
single and dual group machines were produced in considerably smaller
numbers and demand, usually, unrealistic prices.
If you find a bunch of em, let me know ..... I'd go for several right now.
Keep looking, someday maybe.  eBay and Craigs list have worked as well
as anything else for me.
Mike (just plain)
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5) From: Kris Bhatti
Well, I don't suppose you're interested in the machine that's sitting in "my" thriftstore right now.  It's a big ugly thing that says "fresh milk" on one side and "fresh coffee" on the other side.  I guess you just add milk and coffee in the top and push a button to get delicious espresso drinks the likes of which one must usually visit a truck stop for.  Oh, you can pay $250 for this great find.  
Now an update on my recent $10 Salvatore purchase:  Of course I would have hoped that it would just work first time I plugged it in, but it's been much more of an adventure than that.  I went from never heard of Salvatore machines one week ago to being on a first name basis with Salvatore and his wife this week.  Oh, and investing about $400 and many hours working on the machine.  My first order of parts (boiler and group gaskets, pump, autofill valve, solenoid valve for steam) arrived Friday.  I got everything put back together on Sunday and started it up.  Boiler heated up, but the pump wouldn't run.  Salvatore thought the only thing that might still need replaced was the pc board that is the brains of the machine, so he sent me one of those.  I installed that today and still, no luck.  I had them stumped at this point and was starting to think about when I could make the 3 hour drive up to their shop in Solvang.  As a last ditch effort, I was just
 trying to look at everything one more time.  I flipped a little red switch that's under the cover and bingo - the pump started working.  This switch bypasses the motor if you plumb in the machine and it was set to Off.  Apparently, this is opposite of how it's supposed to work so the fact that it was in Off position in the photos I sent didn't catch their attention.  Next problem was the solenoid valve to the steam wand - it made this horrible vibrating noise and steam shot out it's back side.  After confirming it wasn't supposed to do that, I decided to put the old one back in.  I looked closer at the new one and it's 220v - oops, they sent the wrong one!  Luckily the old one actually works fine.  It'll need replaced eventually, but I know how to do it now - no big deal.  Now I'm all set except for one little problem.  When I flip the brew switch, water comes out the group a bit but mostly comes out the drain into the drip tray.  I suspect the 3 way
 valve needs to be replaced, so it's going to be a couple more days before I'm pulling shots with this machine.  I can tear this thing down and reassemble it now and I know exactly what's going on inside - what a great experience!  I'm so excited to try this thing out.  I roasted a pound of Monkey blend today that should be in good shape by Friday when I assume I'll have the final part I need.  I've been quite happy with my PID'd Gaggia Coffee Deluxe, so it'll be interesting to do a side by side comparison of the shots.
Kris
----- Original Message ----
From: Mike Chester 
To: Coffee Forum 
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 2:37:23 PM
Subject: [Homeroast] finding used commercial espresso machine
Several members of this list have mentioned buying used commercial machines and restoring them as projects.  Where do you find decent ones to start with?  I have been watching eBay and Craig's List and have not found anything interesting.  There is no way to know the real condition from reading the descriptions.  I know that buying used commercial machines can be a crap shoot.  They range in quality from a perfect sparkling gem to a POS.  Those of you on the left coast have a definite advantage as there are many more shops going into and out of business there.  I would prefer to find a single group machine which is somewhat rare and also want dual boilers.  (Not too picky huh?)  My ideal find would be a single group Linea.  Any suggestions?  I have a good prosumer machine now, so I don't need this - I am just looking for a project.  
Mike Chester
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6) From: Edward Bourgeois
Kris
Nice job! And now you will know the machine inside and out. Worthwhile
peace of mind for the future.
Wishing good shots,
Ed B.
On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 1:09 AM, Kris Bhatti  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
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7) From: Mike Chester
<Snip>
 Now I'm all set except for one little problem.  When I flip the brew 
switch, water comes out the group a bit but mostly comes out the drain into 
the drip tray.  I suspect the 3 way
<Snip>
I don't think I'd be interested in this machine, though the fact that it is 
in your thrift store and all of the good stuff you have purchased there says 
something about this store.  People sure give away odd (good) things in your 
neighborhood.
As to your new - old machine, it sounds like you made quite a good find and 
have learned a lot about espresso machine building.  Your remaining problem 
sounds like it could also be caused by a faulty expansion valve.  (AKA - 
over pressure valve)  It is designed to relieve the pressure if it gets too 
high and it may be releasing at a lower pressure.  I just replaced the valve 
seat in mine as I was getting excessive overflow when pulling shots.  That 
fixed the problem.
BTW - for Mike D - Yes I am rather picky in my dream machine.  It is a 
dream, after all.  I would also accept a single group Synesso.   (even 
less chance of finding one of those)  I know that you are right about many 
more 3-4 group LMs being available.  Those machines are workhorses bought 
primarily by busy coffee shops.  The single group machines are bought by a 
few high end home users and bars and restaurants that may make an occasional 
espresso and they would rarely spend that much for a part time machine. 
Since I have been watching eBay, I have seen one single group Linea that was 
in a home and built to run on 110 volts.  It was listed at over $4000 but 
did not sell.  The seller dropped the price to $3500 and it sold before I 
got the email saying it was lowered.  There was a deal last week on a brand 
new LM GS-3 from a dealer in Texas.  The starting bid was $4800 and it did 
not sell.  That is a good price for that machine, but still way over my 
head.
Mike Chester
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8) From: Brian Kamnetz
On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 1:09 AM, Kris Bhatti  wrote:
<Snip>
Kris,
You are funny! I really laughed at your quip above.
Congrats on your whole Salvatore experience. Let us know when it is
running and we will all be over!
Brian
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9) From: Michael Dhabolt
Mike Chester,
I know that Synesso does offer a single group machine, but I've never
seen one.  The chances of someone having one and not knowing what it
is worth are pretty slim .... it's not the kind of machine that ends
up with an un-knowledgeable novitiate.  The chances of running into an
LM at a firesale price is a more realistic possibility.  Another
advantage to the LM is that virtually every bit and piece and part is
available, on the shelf.  The LM is also a simple machine to trouble
shoot and repair ... and the results of a well thought out inspection
and rebuild is a virtually bullet proof machine.  When a mechanic
takes the top off and stares inside he will always develop a smile
.... it's nice looking at a piece of machinery that someone actually
built right with no compromises.
Another good resource (has worked for me a few times) is local
espresso machine technicians.  Sometimes they will be aware of someone
that wants to upgrade to a larger or higher quality machine and are
willing to deal on their existing equipment.  Another advantage to
this course of action is that you will usually get a good idea of the
state of repair on the equipment from the tech.
The last single group LM that I saw on eBay was a bastardized GS
(paddle group) that someone had modified (poorly and substantially)
and didn't have any of the original paddle group bits.  And they were
really proud of it ... to the tune of $5K, give or take a bit.  If it
had been restored as original, it would have been worth the money if a
person wanted a really unique (almost museum piece) machine capable of
absolutely the highest quality pulls.  The paddle group allows the
user to control preinfusion manually, which becomes important, IMHO,
when you are working at that level of quality.  A couple of different
paddle group LMs have provided me with a high percentage of the 'God
Shots' I've consumed thru the years.
I've got a two group GS2 that is a long term restoration project and
should be worth a pretty penny when it's finished - I'd trade for a
single group (in similar shape) in a minute ..... it'd be finished
quickly and never leave my kitchen counter.  The two group, on the
other hand is just not something that you'd want in your kitchen
unless you had unlimited real estate on your counter.
Mike (just plain)
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10) From: Mike Chester

11) From:
There are definitely commercial espresso machines in some of the italian restaurant supply places on Bowery.
Dean De Crisce
Sent from a Treo phone.

12) From: Michael Dhabolt
Mike,
Faema is an old and respected brand in the espresso machine business.
I don't have a lot of experience with them, but the ones I've played
with have been well built, a bit above the norm for commercial HX
machines.  The well known E61 group is an original Faema design that
has been copied and produced under license by any number of other
manufacturers.
These folks have made a plethora of different models, it would
probably be a good idea to talk to someone like Devon (the parts guy
at EPNW) about the availability of parts for a particular model before
purchasing a candidate for restoration.
The most common serious / expensive problem with buying a machine that
has been out of service for a while is: the machine having been stored
"wet".  The boiler and HX loop should have been drained prior to
storage.  Out of service machines have a tendency to end up in
un-heated areas, this frequently results in frozen and destroyed
pieces and parts (usually the expensive ones).  If you buy a machine
that has to be shipped, have a nice long serious discussion with the
seller about accomplishing the draining of the machine prior to
shipment.  Even this early in the year, trucks and trains spend enough
time in below freezing areas to cause havoc.  I've got some pictures
of boilers in machines I've bought that would make you cry.
Mike (just plain)
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13) From: Mike Chester

14) From: Kris Bhatti
I hadn't thought about the potential freezing danger.  Not an issue
here in southern California, but I was planning to retire my Gaggia to
our Colorado cabin once the Salvatore is up and running.  I was only concerned about the group gasket drying out faster up there.  I think I'd
better plan to still carry it back and forth (I drive - gotta bring the
doggies along!) unless I figure out a way to make sure all the water is
out.  Maybe it's not so difficult with this kind of machine, but I'd
hate to find out the hard way!  I bet there is a way to clear it out, maybe just run the steam till no more steam comes out?  That doesn't take long - major weak point of the machine and why I've been using the Europiccola as my dedicated steamer.  
Salvatore update:  I believe I am just one group-valve away from
brewing now.  Hopefully UPS will arrive with it this morning.  Per
Salvatore's instructions, I replaced the little valve on top of the
boiler with a brass plug - they don't use the valve on the new
machines, just open the steam to let that cold air escape during
warm-up.  
Kris
----- Original Message ----
From: Mike Chester 
To: homeroast
Sent: Thursday, October 2, 2008 9:11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] finding used commercial espresso machine

15) From: Mike Chester

16) From: Michael Dhabolt
Mike,
This link:http://homeroasters.org/php/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id2&thread_id57is to some info that may be of interest if you decide to follow thru
on the Faema thing.
Mike (just plain)
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17) From: Joseph Robertson
Hi Mike,
Your mention of the Faema rings a nice note as I wipe mine down for the
night like a quarter horse after a long day at the races.  My two group is
running like a champ. Pulled many shots with it today. Come on by and check
it out. Your right about a rock solid machine for an HX. This one is the
Jublie E61 model. I just wish I was able to install it facing my customers
instead of a wall. Can't see the beautiful red back lit logo.
I'm not a bit disipointed in this purchase choice. I hope you made time to
get some of your own roasting in these days.
Best Regards,
JoeR
The guy you visited in Stevenson.
On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 7:07 PM, Michael Dhabolt
wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and pallet reform.
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18) From: Michael Dhabolt
JoeR,
I've been meaning to stop but have been in a rush every time I go thru
your neck of the woods lately.  I might make it later this week.
Mike Chester,
The rest of the story....... other links concerning the Faema rebuild
that Jimoncaffeine did (and did such a super job of documenting).http://homeroasters.org/php/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id2&thread_id23#post_2399http://homeroasters.org/php/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id2&thread_id41#post_2473
Mike (just plain)
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19) From: Joseph Robertson
I will look forward to it.
Cheers,
Joe
On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 7:41 PM, Michael Dhabolt
wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
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20) From: Mike Chester
Mike (just plain),
Thank you for all of the information that you have sent.  It is very helpful 
for anyone who is contemplating a pro machine rebuild.
Thanks also for those people who have sent me notes off-line offering high 
quality machines for sale.
I probably should clarify what I am doing.  I have a good quality pro-sumer 
machine (Vetrano) that I am satisfied with so I am not looking for a 
replacement at this time.  What I am looking for is a rebuild project to 
work on since I am bored.  Since I am not in any kind of rush, I can afford 
to be picky about what I choose to work on.  This is why I mentioned the 
Linea in my first post.  I was looking for possible new sources of used 
equipment.  When you pointed out that I was being picky, I, half jokingly, 
said that I would also accept a Synesso, knowing full well that the odds of 
finding one are between slim and none.  It was supposed to a joke, 
(obviously not a very good one) though I would love to actually find one. 
( I did see a couple of single group Synessos on CG's resale pages about 6 
months ago, but they were priced out of my limited range)  I mentioned Faema 
since I have seen several single group machines on eBay, mostly the Due 
model.  I know that they are an old line, quality company but I am not sure 
of the availability of parts.  I know that there are several sources for LM 
parts and that is important.  I hate to be working on something and have the 
project stop while trying to find one last part.  I don't know how many 
times that has happened to me.
BTW - I don't have a problem with a machine that requires 220 volts.  I can 
easily get that.
Mike Chester

21) From: miKe mcKoffee
If you have the tools and skills you might go the route Mike (just plain)
has and build a custom double boiler saturated single group La Marzocco
"clone" from the ground up:-) Seen a few pic's of his first one built to
seamlessly visually integrate into a (client's) high end new kitchen, way
sweet.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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22) From: Mike Chester
That sounds like quite a project - very ambitious.  Wouldn't building a 
machine from parts cost a lot more than just buying a whole new machine?  I 
seem to remember someone doing a study a few years ago about building a car 
from replacement parts and the total cost was something like more than 10 
times what the whole car would cost.  I imagine this would also be true for 
espresso machines.  Of course, if someone was able to start with an old 
multi group machine and strip the boilers, valves, etc. they may be able to 
build a smaller machine for less money.  It still sounds like it would 
require a lot of custom work and a great deal of skill, something I don't 
have.  Maybe I should find a different project that fits into my skill set 
better.
Mike Chester

23) From: Michael Dhabolt
Mike,
I should have said "single group commercial machines".  Converting a
multi-group machine to a single group is do-able but probably not
somewhat without a machine shop at their disposal would want to tie
into.
There are actually quite a few HX, single group, machines out there.
Sandwich shops, Bed and Breakfasts, bars, Hotel/Motel lunch counters
etc. frequently buy a single group machine to try to respond to the
Espresso market.
Mike (just plain)
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24) From: miKe mcKoffee
True, commercial single group HX machines are relatively easy to find at
relatively low prices. But since Mike (C) already has a Vetrano me thinks
it's a DB he's looking to score for a project machine. Main thing gained
commercial HX 1grp would be bigger boiler for better steam performance,
virtually instant shot recovery time too of course. 
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.mcKonaKoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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25) From: Mike Chester
You are correct sir.
Mike (C)


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