HomeRoast Digest


Topic: over-extraction in vacuum brewer (18 msgs / 594 lines)
1) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
I realised this morning how easy it is to get over-extraction in a 
Yama. I was brewing the Guatemala El Injerto Pacamara, and did my 
normal routine. I preheat water, add a full amount (5 cups) to the 
bottom, put it on the gas burner on low, fit the top that has 50 
grams coffee loaded in it with the glass Cona rod in place. It takes 
only about 1:30 to get all the water to syphon into the top bowl, 
then I tend to leave it for just 1 minute before extinguishing the 
flame. Today, I left it for 1:45 and I could really tell right away. 
The sweetness in the coffee hard a hard edge to the flavor, kinda 
like slightly burned sugar or molasses ... it was still sweet but 
just closed. The cup was nice, but I could definitely sense that this 
was an effect of too much extraction, and in a vac pot it is such a 
short time! I brewed the same Injerto Pacamara again in the Aeropress 
and had such different results. The sweetness was more like light 
brown sugar, but then again, other flavors in the cup weren't as well 
articulated as the vacuum brew. Anyway, both were quite good (it's a 
great coffee ... and you can always bank on a great coffee and decent 
roast resulting in a solid cup, nomatter if it isn't the absolute 
best cup that might result from that  particular coffee). I am going 
to try it tomorrow in the Yama with less hold time, and in the 
Technivorm, and compare those 2 results...
Tom
--
                   "Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"
            Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting  -  Tom & Maria
                      http://www.sweetmarias.com                Thompson Owen george_at_sweetmarias.com
     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - tom_at_sweetmarias.com
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2) From: Barry Luterman
Another screw up that is possible in a vac pot is overheating the water in
the kettle before transferring to the Vac- Pot. I have used boiling 212
water and then put it in the ac-pot. That effects the taste as well. the
water should be below 200 when transfered.
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee <
sweetmarias> wrote:
<Snip>
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3) From: Doug Boutell
Tom,
Leave the coffee out and measure the temp of the  water as it
first comes into the top bowl  with your TC and you will find
it's about 175deg f , after all the water  is in the top bowl the temp
will be about 205 range. The cold top bowl sucks out the heat . I changed
about 3 years ago and have not had a problem.
Doug
Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee wrote:
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4) From: Scott Bukofsky
After some experimentation, I settled on 45 seconds from the first bubbles
of air entering the top of the pot until removal from the heat.  This is
with the 5 cup Yama on my gas stove.
-Scotto
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 6:12 PM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee <
sweetmarias> wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
scottoscoffeeandtea.blogspot.com
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5) From:
I have a question. I saw a video of someone using the vacpot and allowing all the water to enter the top before adding the coffee. He then let it sit for 45 seconds.
Up till now I have always added the coffee to the top when dry. I see that tom does the same. Any other methods or comments?
Dean De Crisce
Sent from a Treo phone.

6) From: raymanowen
Over 50 years ago, I sometimes made coffee for Mom and Dad in the morning
before school, so I could have one or two beans out of the wall grinder's
hopper. Glass "¿Vaculator?", Mom always boiled the water first in a tea
kettle, so I did, too.
Asbestos pad over the flame, Peoria was about 600ft ASL, so maybe boiled
about 211° F. My folks loved it but brewed coffee was too hot and too weak
for me. I always preferred the Eight O'Clock bean crunch. I know... Damn
kids.
Some part of the glass rod had a fabric sock over it. I still disliked the
coffee. "One of these days," one will be intact when I snoop the thrift
store.
Profanity!!! I'm all out of roast. The FR batches sure go fast. I'll do some
Brazil for the morning- later. It's good right out of the roaster.
Cheers, Mabuhay, Magandang Umaga -RayO, aka Opa!
On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 11:23 PM,  wrote:
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-- =
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976
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7) From: Allon Stern
On Oct 27, 2008, at 1:23 AM,  wrote:
<Snip>
At the mid-Atlantic gathering this weekend, Paul put a Cona pot on the  
table at the start of dinner, grounds on top, water not preheated,  
over an alcohol burner. It started slooowly. It was done around the  
end of dinner (I was in the other room futzing with espresso, so I  
didn't see exactly when Paul snuffed the flame.
Anyway, it wasn't over-extracted, likely due to low extraction  
temperatures. It was a smooth cup, though maybe lacking in high end.  
If I recall, it was a swp Ethiopian.
-
allon
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8) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
I think that would be under-extracted ... never hear of it before.
BTW I always use hot water , it takes forever to heat the water in 
the brewer itself ... and in a Cona with an alcohol flame, oit is an 
eternity. I have had good coffee this way, very different, but it's 
not a brew method that works with a lot of flavor profiles. Hot water 
is the way to go...
<Snip>
--
                   "Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"
            Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting  -  Tom & Maria
                      http://www.sweetmarias.com                Thompson Owen george_at_sweetmarias.com
     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - tom_at_sweetmarias.com
Homeroast mailing list
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9) From: Dean De Crisce
i believe it was kyle glanville...i found the linkhttp://tv.boingboing.net/2008/06/20/a-morning-at-intelli.htmlsomebody posted it previously...which is what led me to the question in the
first place
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee <
sweetmarias> wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Dean De Crisce, MD
Ann Klein Forensic Center
Special Treatment Unit
8 Production Way
Avenel, NJ 07001
732-499-5653
Mobile: 310-980-8715
decrisce.md
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10) From: Bob Glasscock
Interesting. 
-Bob Glasscock
i believe it was kyle glanville...i found the linkhttp://tv.boingboing.net/2008/06/20/a-morning-at-intelli.htmlsomebody posted it previously...which is what led me to the question in the
first place
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11) From: Andy Thomas
It looks like Kyle does it that way so he can bring the water up to temp in=
 the top chamber before adding the coffee. I agree with Tom that it seems l=
ike it would be under-extracted, but I plan to try it the next time I use m=
y Nicro.
From: Dean De Crisce 
To: homeroast
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 11:25:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] over-extraction in vacuum brewer
i believe it was kyle glanville...i found the linkhttp://tv.boingboing.net/2008/06/20/a-morning-at-intelli.htmlsomebody posted it previously...which is what led me to the question in the
first place
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee <
sweetmarias> wrote:
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-- =
Dean De Crisce, MD
Ann Klein Forensic Center
Special Treatment Unit
8 Production Way
Avenel, NJ 07001
732-499-5653
Mobile: 310-980-8715
decrisce.md
Homeroast mailing list
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      =
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12) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
Makes sense - but I consider the slower wetting of grinds as a kind 
of pre-infusion, and the main reason that you don't have to keep 
grind and water together for 4 minutes. Then again the Yama on a 
stovetop tends to have a really fast, effective siphon/vacuum, 
whereas the cona on a spirt lamp, even with preheated water can be a 
lot slower.
<Snip>
--
                   "Great coffee comes from tiny roasters"
            Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting  -  Tom & Maria
                      http://www.sweetmarias.com                Thompson Owen george_at_sweetmarias.com
     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - tom_at_sweetmarias.com
Homeroast mailing list
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13) From: Paul Helbert
Yes, usually I preheat the water and and add it hot to the bottom of any vac
pot and I use medium heat. That is how I did the Cory brew we had early
Saturday. The Cona on the alcohol lamp was timed to finish at the end of the
meal, which it did; and I attribute any slight lack of high end to the decaf
processing loss more to any under extraction, or to the fact that we had
been drinking all those fruit bombs all afternoon so maybe we were just a
bit jaded.
Hey Allon, We found your saucer. I did not watch you enough with the
espresso making. I have adjusted the grind and tamp to get good shots. Is it
normal for the puck to be soupy wet afterwards? I thought I saw you dump dry
pucks... Maybe they were just from the Aeropress? Am I missing something
here?
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 8:54 AM, Allon Stern  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Paul Helbert
Mid Atlantic Home Roaster's Gatheringhttp://paul.helbert.googlepages.com/midatlantichomeroaster'sgatheringHomeroast mailing list
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14) From: Paul Helbert
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15) From: raymanowen
Thanks, Paul. I'm going to make some functional art by hanging glass coffee
maker parts on the wall from fish line. If I light it right, maybe I'll
start a Coffee Maker Stash, with coffee added. With my Big Band and Jazz
stage...
I just realized something new- there's a reason for the pf fork on the
Mazzer grinders. It works well in conjunction with the PSC drive motor.
There's a large 120Hz torsional component of vibration on the axis of the
slob solid-mounted motor.
The fork vibrates, so with the pf spouts locked firmly against the fork, you
automatically get Vibro Flotation and Compaction, and the packing of the
grounds is accomplished well before any great tamping force is applied.
Geophysics applies to espresso coffee brewing.
How else would they get by with the Chintzy plastic "tamper" arm?
Absent the flotation and compaction before tamping, the tamper is
 to introduce shear planes into the coffee puck, along with low
pressure tracks and execrable extraction. Zilch Crema is an added detriment.
Of course, some baristas evade that trap with fancy tamper manipulation.
I was going to build a separate vibration table until I realized the Mazzer
already has it. Without an initial flat top surface of loose grounds in the
filter basket, any tamper will introduce massive shear planes into the puck.
If you scrape it flat with your thumb, you just changed the dose, so it
would be easy to start with 18g like a pile of corn cobs. What a waste, and
negative 5 CSA points.
Tare the basket and tamp like Hell. If you recheck the weight at that point,
how much left in the basket ready to lock up and brew? Maybe a triple will
actually hold 18g.
Cheers, Mabuhay and Salamat Po -RayO, aka Opa!
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976
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16) From: Michael I
Here's what I've been doing in my Hario Deco:
Fill bottom with 5 cups of water from the espresso machine
Apply flame (butane burner)
Add top half and all let water siphon up
Add 35-40g relatively finely ground
Stir and let sit for 1 minute, then remove heat
Since I grind fairly finely, it takes about 90 seconds for the water  
to get back down, which is why I think I'm getting pretty good  
extraction (almost 3 minutes in contact with the grounds).
I've been experimenting with grinding a bit more coarsely to see how  
it affects the flavor, but, for the moment, the method above is what  
I've liked best.  If I lengthen just the time in that method to 1 1/2  
minutes of steep time, it starts to overextract and get bitter.
-AdkMike
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17) From: Allon Stern
On Oct 28, 2008, at 12:31 AM, Paul Helbert wrote:
<Snip>
What I've been doing is grind, fill the pf, bang it a few times on  
the table, fill again (contents will have settled), level with a  
straightedge, tamp.
If the grind is such that another notch tighter will stall the  
machine, but it still flows too fast, tamp harder, or overdose a  
little bit.
Now that I have that scale, I intend to see just how much I'm dosing :)
Once extraction is done, let the pf sit in the machine for a brief  
time.  That's usually enough for it to settle down.http://www.home-barista.com/forums/soupy-puck-syndrome-t8118.html-
allon
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18) From: Angelo
I've noticed that as long as I leave my PF locked in my Silvia (for 
up to 1/2 hr) it will still be soupy when I take it out. However, 
once it is out, it will only take a couple of minutes for it to become dry.
Interestingly, the puck from my Cremina lever machine produces a hard 
puck as soon as it comes from the machine...
Angelo
<Snip>
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