HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Rewiring the garage tomorrow night (22 msgs / 706 lines)
1) From: MikeG
Not me.  A buddy that owes me $$ for a couple of bikes.
Voltage for my Behmor is dropping to 111.5 in the final stages - not
enough to finish up the 14oz roasts I was trying yesterday on P3 D
setting.   So the 14 ga ragwire is coming out to be replaced with 12
guage.  It's an easy run to the breaker box in the basement.  Hope it
makes a difference.
Mike
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2) From: Brian Kamnetz
Mike,
I'm interested in this sort of thing, thought not at all
knowledgeable. I'd be interested in hearing about any differences you
notice (or not) after replacing the 14 ga with 12 ga wire.
brian
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 10:49 PM, MikeG  wrote:
<Snip>
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3) From: Mike Chester
Mike,
This should result in less voltage drop, but how much depends on a couple of 
things.  First is the length of the run from the panel to the outlets.  The 
longer the run, the more voltage drop, but unless it is an especially long 
run, this should not be a problem.  More important is the quality of the 
receptacles that you use.  Poor quality receptacles (Those that sell for 
under $1.00) do not have springs squeezing the contact points.  They depend 
on the springiness of the thin sheet metal contacts.  These can easily 
become loose and become a high heat - high loss point.  This is especially 
true when used with appliances that draw a fair amount of power, such as a 
coffee roaster.  Personally, I would favor banning these cheap outlets as I 
feel they are unsafe for general use.  Most electricians I know would never 
use them.  They are mostly bought by home owners doing their own work who 
don't know any better.  They see an outlet for $0.49 and another for $2.50 
or more and cannot see the difference, so they go for the cheapest price.  I 
had a friend who built a house a few years ago.  He bought cases of these 
cheap outlets.  I told him that he could probably get away with using them 
in places like the living room where a table lamp may be plugged in for 
years, but for the kitchen and bathrooms where appliances are routinely 
plugged in and unplugged they would not be safe.  I literally begged him to 
spend $25.00 more on his $150,000 house to keep it from burning down, but he 
would not listen.  Within 3 months of moving in, he had a kitchen outlet 
fire.  Fortunately, he was able to extinguish it before it did much damage.
If you choose to follow my advice, be sure that the outlets you use in this 
project are rated for 20 amps and are labeled "Contractor Grade" or higher. 
(around $2.50 - 3.00 ea.)  Visually a 15 amp outlet will have 2 parallel 
slots and a round ground pin.  A 20 amp rated outlet will be the same except 
one of the flat slots will have a crossways slot added.  Though rare, a true 
20 amp plug will have one pin sideways and will fit into that sideways slot. 
The 20 amp model La Spaz. Vivaldi espresso machine has this kind of plug.
Mike Chester

4) From: Ira
At 10:46 AM 10/28/2008, you wrote:
<Snip>
With the Behmor running at full tilt 14 ga wire costs about .036 
Volts per foot and 12 ga costs only .022 so if the run is 50' you 
should pick up between 1/2 and 3/4 of a volt.
The part I don't know is how the heating of the copper wire effects 
that so a 50 foot run may gain 2 or 3 times that. Also replace the 
outlets with either hospital or equivalent commercial grade outlets 
as the screw connects, much stronger contact pressure and heavier 
metal contacts should also help.
Ira
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5) From: Ira
At 10:59 AM 10/28/2008, you wrote:
<Snip>
But if you use 20 amp outlets, make sure it's on a 20 amp circuit. I 
think that means 12ga wire and a 20 amp breaker, otherwise, just make 
sure to use good 15 amp outlets with screws to attach the wires. The 
price is a reasonable test, ought to be over $3.00, as is plugging 
something in and making sure it feels nice and snug. As I mentioned 
before, hospital grade or the commercial equivalent is the correct 
choice for this sort of thing. The only real downside of hospital 
grade is the price and the color, usually bright orange.
Ira
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6) From: Mike Chester
<Snip>
This is true, but the OP stated that he was going to use 12 awg wire.  He 
did not state what size breaker, but he should use a 20 amp.
I never use the shove in connectors as they do not provide a solid 
connection.  On higher end outlets, there is a heavy wire clamp that is 
tightened by the screw.  I feel that this is even better than wrapping the 
wire around the screw as it is less likely to slip off, but wrapping the 
wire is a very good connection.  Unfortunately, wrapping the wire and 
tightening the screw takes a lot more time than shoving a wire in a hole and 
in production wiring, time is money.  The guys that wire housing 
developments work so fast that they don't even use diagonal wire cutters. 
They carry a small hatchet, chop the wire, spin the hatchet around and drive 
the staple to hold it in place.  A crew of 3 typically can rough wire 3 
smaller houses in an 8 hour shift with time left over.  The low seniority 
man is usually the "mole."  His only job is to drill the holes that the 
wires go through, and the job is laid out to minimize holes needed.  The 
other two, run all of the wire.  The same or a different crew of 3 can 
finish wire the same 3 houses in a day.  You don't have time to wrap the 
wires at that speed.
To make this slightly on topic - They typically drink a lot of coffee to 
maintain that speed.
Mike Chester
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7) From: Allon Stern
On Oct 28, 2008, at 2:19 PM, Ira wrote:
<Snip>
The bright orange color indicates isolated ground. If you install one  
of these and have your wiring inspected, the inspector may ask you to  
show the isolated ground running directly to the panel. If you can't,  
you will have to replace it with a non-orange outlet. If you really  
want a hospital grade outlet without an isolated ground, they are  
available in non-orange.
Isolated grounds get you better noise immunity for sensitive devices;  
doesn't really make sense for a roaster, unless you have a fancy whiz- 
bang computerized deal that is sensitive to electrical noise...and  
the motors on a fan/drum would likely generate their own share of  
electrical noise.
"Hospital grade" are just overbuilt; they're extra strong, have good  
contacts. Leviton says: "Hospital grade devices are top of the line  
in their category, designed for high-abuse environments such as those  
found in healthcare facilities"
Bottom line: hospital grade OK; orange outlet is not to code unless  
isolated ground, and isolated ground is not worth it.
-
allon
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8) From: MikeG
Mike thank you for the advice.  We did the job tonight.  We created a
dedicated 20 amp circuit with a run of about 70' to the outlet where
I'll be roasting.   The outlets we bought at home depot were the
better ones they offered and we had to wrap a wire around a screw and
tighten.  I hope they are good enough.   I ran through a few minutes
of Behmor's P1 profile and the voltage stayed at 117v.
I'm flush on roasted beans right now but can't wait to try another
14oz batch in the Behmor to see if the 117v holds up all the way
through the roast - and if 2nd crack is more predicable with the
various beans I use.
Mike Gervais
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Mike Chester  wrote:
<Snip>
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9) From: Joseph Robertson
Allon,
Thank you for the clarification. I'm a general contractor and do much of the
wiring on my own properties in Washington state. I was not clear on the
orange outlets till now. I have also not used them yet so when or if I ever
do I will make sure I ground them correctly.
Cheers,
JoeR
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 8:59 PM, Allon Stern  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and pallet reform.
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10) From: Ira
At 08:59 PM 10/28/2008, you wrote:
<Snip>
Ooh, I didn't know about the isolated ground thing. Everything here 
is isolated ground because it's all 2+ a ground romex. I'll make sure 
to never buy orange.
Ira
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11) From: Ira
At 10:28 PM 10/28/2008, you wrote:
<Snip>
If you're seeing 117 at the start of P1, you have nothing to worry about.
Ira
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12) From: Joseph Robertson
Ira,
Just to be sure we or me is on the same page with you and Mike. You say
"everything here is isolated ground because it's all 2+ a ground romex" If I
am correct here, an isolated ground is synonymous a dedicated circut. Please
correct me if I'm wrong.
JoeR
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 11:19 PM, Ira  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and pallet reform.
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13) From: denis bordeleau
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14) From: Ira
At 12:08 PM 10/29/2008, you wrote:
<Snip>
No, I'm probably wrong. Isolated would imply use only on home runs, 
most likely 1 breaker per outlet and I don't have that.
Ira
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15) From: Allon Stern
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16) From: raymanowen
Close- No Cigar though.
Europeans economize on copper wiring gauge >expense< by using higher mains
voltage and lower current for the same (heater) power. A machine like a film
processor, that has several heaters in the developer and fixer baths will
stagger the heaters so that they're never turned on simultaneously.
Contrast control and grain size in silver-based films are extremely
temperature dependent. I helped a friend move and install a film processor
and process camera that could handle up to 4 foot wide sheet film.
I felt like Gulliver- the camera had a 5 ft X 8 ft front and back lighted
copyboard. The 5 ft long F-50 fluorescent lamps were something like $10 each
X24
Jeff was a coffee drinker- all the more so after the movers broke the
focusing screen on the camera. No parts available, I had to get a new one
made for the Brobdingnagian orphan. $700 for the piece of 0.75" optical
glass, frosted and etched with vacuum tracks to hold the film sheets.
I wasn't really roasting at the time, but I set Jeff up with a better
restaurant coffee maker and Boyer's coffee. Now, I remember- I roasted once
in his shop with the Melitta Aroma Roast, and sold him the roaster. They
loved the smell and the fresh roasted coffee taste. Kenya AA from Boyer, who
sold it for the same price as his roasted coffee. I knew nothing about aging
the roast, but they loved it anyway...
His graphics shop had been a Hudson car dealer back in the day with plenty
of electric power. The monster LogE Apollo camera had 8000 watts of Halogen
front exposure lamps. The 1200 watts of fluorescents were rarely used, but
the 2000 watt vacuum pump was used for every exposure. The Aroma Roast was
like a door bell.
If you are wiring three prong grounded outlets, you can use 10 gauge wire if
you want. The outlet requires a 15 ampere breaker. With a GFCI circuit, both
the line and the neutral come from the GFCI breaker in the service panel. It
will trip open if the current exceeds the rating, OR if the line and neutral
currents don't match within a few miliamperes on that circuit.
If some of the line current is going to ground (not neutral) through a
person or equipment short, the GFCI breaker will happily trip far below its
rated current. 50 to 100 miliamperes is quite a jolt but not lethal.
Notice: if you have never operated a hammer or otherwise have pink skin on
your hands, don't do the functional test for lethality of the 50 to 100
miliampere limit.
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?
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17) From: Leo Zick
youre european arent you?
romex with bx shielding? al wires?  interesting..
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 3:24 PM, denis bordeleau  wrote:
<Snip>
or
<Snip>
dd
<Snip>
ts
<Snip>
ee.com
<Snip>
ee.com
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18) From: denis bordeleau
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bUlkPTc4MjA=

19) From: Dean
This may be a dead horse at this point, but anyway:
When you're talking about Hospital Isolated Ground Outlets, what you 
have are outlets where the "ground" contact in the socket is >NOT< 
connected to the mounting strap.
On "normal" outlets they are connected and the ground connection also 
goes to the box.  Back in the day, wiring was pulled thru metal conduits 
and into metal wall boxes and these were often used as the safety ground 
condutor.  2+G Romex makes it possible to run wire without metal conduit 
and still get a ground path.
I imagine that hospitals (and some industrial/commercial buildings) have 
metal conduits and that for safety as well as protection of critical 
electronic stuff they require "clean" ground paths.  The orange color is 
probably so that you know you have a good ground if you need it.  Makes 
me wonder whether the monitors & other electronic stuff have orange 
plugs to indicate that they need to plug into an orange outlet.  
Hmmm.........
Cuppa Sumatra Mandheling roasted last weekend brewed in my Melitta 
"Ready Set Joe" single cup drip cone.
Sure hope the Indos start coming in soon--the list is pretty short the 
last few months (just a ton of Centrals and a few Africas) and I'm 
running low....
Dean
In da weeds
Ira wrote:
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20) From: Leo Zick
also hospitals use, im drawing a blank now, ground isolation monitors, or
capacitors? something independent that is monitored.. :/
On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Dean  wrote:
<Snip>
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21) From: Dean
Hmmm
The breaker is normally sized to protect the wire (and keep the building 
from catching on fire from overheated wire) rather than the outlet or 
the load (for 120v circuits anyway--dryers and ranges on 240v may be a 
bit different). It's pretty common to use 15a outlets on 12 ga 20 amp 
circuits.  But, if  you need to use a 20 a outlet (for a window Air 
Conditioner, maybe) then you better have a 20 a + 12 ga circuit.
You might want to increase your wire size for longer runs to reduce 
voltage drop in the line--at 15 amps (1800 watts or so) 100 feet of  
"normal" 14 ga wire will probably drop about 4 volts, while a 12 ga wire 
will only drop 2.5 v and a 10 ga will drop 1.5 volts  (Ohms 
Law--Voltage=Current X Resistance "E")  I think code requires 12 ga 
these days, but there is a lot of 14 ga in the real world.
If you see the voltage at the outlet sag more than 3~5 volts when you 
start your roaster you may have a loose or corroded connection somewhere 
or an undersized wire or over-long run.
If you use 10 ga you're good to 30 amps per NEC.  Depending on the 
outlet you buy, you may (or may not) have trouble making a 10 ga wire 
fit in the terminal if it has the pressure plates and wiring funnels (as 
MikeC said--very good connection)
A GFCI breaker in the panel is not that common in residential since GFCI 
outlets are a lot less expensive and easy to install (and reset) at the 
point of use.  You might find them on things like pools & spas.
And the (ANSI ?  I think) standard for GFCI trip current is 5 mA max--a 
lot of them trip at only 2-3 mA. I still prefer not to test them on 
myself--but I'm pleased when they work.
Time for another cup of coffee--Maybe some of the Ethiopia Koratie this 
time.  Sure was good a couple days ago.
Dean
 From da weeds
raymanowen wrote:
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22) From: denis bordeleau
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