HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Bean hardness and roasting variables (24 msgs / 617 lines)
1) From: MikeG
This seems to be the next for me in my progress as a home roaster.
Which growing conditions make for a "hard" bean.  Do any
regions/locals produce beans which are usually considered soft?
When roasting, should the temperature profile differ for a hard bean
as opposed to that used to roast a soft bean?
If any of this matters I'd like to see Tom's excellent reviews include
a brief profile suggestion such as "rapid ramp up" or "gentle ramp
profile" etc.
Thanks for any help on the above questions.
Mike Gervais
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2) From: Steve Carlson
I also would love to know more about this.  Any thoughts would be
appreciated.
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 8:26 AM, MikeG  wrote:
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3) From: Bruce Garley
MikeG:
These are GREAT questions. And they are generally not answered well in the
instruction manuals. 
When I first got my Behmor and started reading how to setup a roast, the
first dilemma faced was: did I have Hard Bean, Soft Bean or Island Bean?
Only then could I begin to decide which of the 5 profiles was appropriate. 
And then I figured something out for my Sumatran (island?) peaberries and
had a good handful fall through the screen right off the bat. Something else
no one warned me about and I didn't know enough to ask anyway at that point.
I think it would not be asking too much for Behmor, (I don't know about
other roasters), to list more examples of beans appropriate for each the
profiles. It would also be useful to get background info on why each profile
is appropriate for different beans. Not everyone has access to this
excellent forum when they are starting to roast.
Here's the meager information I eventually came up with from internet
sources:
Hard Bean Types: High initial heat followed by moderate. Kenya AA, Guatemala
SHB, almost any coffee grown higher than 5000 feet. 
Medium Hard Bean Types: Moderate initial heat followed by moderate. Brazil,
Sumatra, Java and most Latin American coffees grown lower than 5000 feet
(Nicaraguan).
Soft Bean Types: Low to moderate heat for entire process. Hawaiian,
Caribbean and beans grown lower than 3500 feet.
Fresh Crop Coffees: Moderate during first 3-5 minutes, then follow regular
schedule.
Generally it seems like the more moisture in the bean initially, it should
be considered softer and the initial heat should be less. All of this is a
gross over-simplification. Because of that I spend a lot of time at this
forum gleaning roast information, especially for particular beans. Sometimes
moisture content of beans is given, Could this be useful somehow?
I would really appreciate updating, improving, correcting and adding to the
Hard Bean / Soft Bean lists started above.
Bruce Garley
Plant Whisperer
San Juan Capistrano, CA
 
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4) From: NANNERNLP
Thanks Bruce!
I had been wondering the same things about the bean types & variables, I 
appreciate your input as well as Mike G for raising the questions.
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5) From: raymanowen
"When roasting, should the temperature profile differ for a hard bean
as opposed to that used to roast a soft bean?-
"If any of this matters I'd like to see Tom's excellent reviews include
a brief profile suggestion such as "rapid ramp up" or "gentle ramp
profile" etc.-"
Many home roasters modify existing equipment to suit their personal
preference, and choose what bean to roast in the first place. The air
poppers quickly advance token to Boardwalk, where the fire department
inspired Ray Bradbury's *Fahrenheit 451*.
The popper profiles are easy to amend with an extension cord or more
extensive changes.
The Fresh Roast, as supplied, is easy to operate with a reduced heating
cycle that extends and profiles the roast manually- which is what any home
roaster worth his salt would do with instructions supplied by any source.
Note that Tom omits instructions to actually drink or sip the beverage
produced at the end of all the processing done to the coffee seeds...
Cheers, Mabuhay and Magandang Hapon -RayO, aka Opa!
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 9:26 AM, MikeG  wrote:
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Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976
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6) From: John A C Despres
Indeed all good questions.
The harder, more dense the bean, the more heat it takes to reach the center
of the bean. You can add another variable - weigh your beans for density.
Choose a container, one that will work for the volume of bean you typically
order. Weight the container (I use a Mason jar) and record the eight or zero
your scale with the container on it. Fill the jar to the top and weigh. The
heavier beans are more dense.
This is only relative density - relative to what you weigh and record.
However, once you get a list of weights, along with your knowledge of the
beans and altitude, you'll be adding mor information to your arsenal.
I'm not sure exactly where it is, but check out Tom's roaster's blog on the
site. There's helpful information there as well. Tom also has a moisture
content list on the site, too.
I hope this is helpful.
John
If you buy in larger volumes, use a 2 gallon ice cream bucket.
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 6:06 PM,  wrote:
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7) From: Ed Needham
Beans that are grown at higher altitudes are more dense (hard) than others. 
Generally that means they need to be close to the equator to be high without 
freeze/frost.  So look to the higher elevations for hard beans. 
Traditionally Guatemala has used the 'hard bean' descriptors, and it has 
spread throughout much of the Central and South American growing regions. 
SHB means 'Strictly Hard Bean' and HB means 'hard bean'.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

8) From: MikeG
:-(
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 4:06 PM,   wrote:
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9) From: MikeG
Thank you Bruce.  That was very helpful
.
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Bruce Garley  wrote:
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10) From: Phil Bergman
Bruce,
Thanks for posting this.
Phil

11) From: Coffee
I knew I was forgetting something...
On Nov 12, 2008, at 3:06 PM, raymanowen wrote:
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12) From: Robert Yoder
I agree that these are great questions and seem to be ignored by the manufacturers.  Behmor instructions do mention profiles for Hard Bean, etc, but are essentially silent as to identifying the coffees to be roasted this way.  I would love to have this information in some kind of ordered form and agree that it would be great for Tom to include this information in his descriptions.  (Some coffees, it is true, are described as Hard Bean, etc, but not all).
 
Happy Roasting,
 
robert yoder> From: bsgarley.public> To: homeroast> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:52:35 -0800> Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Bean hardness and roasting variables> > MikeG:> > These are GREAT questions. And they are generally not answered well in the> instruction manuals. > > When I first got my Behmor and started reading how to setup a roast, the> first dilemma faced was: did I have Hard Bean, Soft Bean or Island Bean?> Only then could I begin to decide which of the 5 profiles was appropriate. > > And then I figured something out for my Sumatran (island?) peaberries and> had a good handful fall through the screen right off the bat. Something else> no one warned me about and I didn't know enough to ask anyway at that point.> > I think it would not be asking too much for Behmor, (I don't know about> other roasters), to list more examples of beans appropriate for each the> profiles. It would also be useful to get background info on why each profile> is
  appropriate for different beans. Not everyone has access to this> excellent forum when they are starting to roast.> > Here's the meager information I eventually came up with from internet> sources:> > Hard Bean Types: High initial heat followed by moderate. Kenya AA, Guatemala> SHB, almost any coffee grown higher than 5000 feet. > > > Medium Hard Bean Types: Moderate initial heat followed by moderate. Brazil,> Sumatra, Java and most Latin American coffees grown lower than 5000 feet> (Nicaraguan).> > > Soft Bean Types: Low to moderate heat for entire process. Hawaiian,> Caribbean and beans grown lower than 3500 feet.> > > Fresh Crop Coffees: Moderate during first 3-5 minutes, then follow regular> schedule.> > Generally it seems like the more moisture in the bean initially, it should> be considered softer and the initial heat should be less. All of this is a> gross over-simplification. Because of that I spend a lot of time at this> forum gleaning roast information, especially
  for particular beans. Sometimes> moisture content of beans is given, Could this be useful somehow?> > I would really appreciate updating, improving, correcting and adding to the> Hard Bean / Soft Bean lists started above.> > > Bruce Garley> Plant Whisperer> San Juan Capistrano, CA> > Vivir con miedo es como vivir a medias.> > > > > > > >

13) From: MikeG
I also wonder if really skilled roasters running the larger
professional Probats etc. always use one profile, or do they vary it
with extremes in hardness/softness in the spectrum?
I'd love to see Tom chime in on this thread.
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 8:54 PM, Robert Yoder  wrote:
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 is
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 y
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14) From: raymanowen
":-("
I apologize- I was just enjoying a 6T Moka pot of Neanderthal blended:
Ethiopian Harar Green Stripe ~7g
Brazil Cerrado... Formosa ~7g
Sumatra Classic Mandheling ~3g last of roasted
Costa Rica Peaberry ~6g last of roasted.
The numbers are probably fiction- I was going for 20g total until I
remembered the sandwich bag of Sumatra and Costa Rica in the freezer = 23g
tot. maybe
Ground at 50, brew finished at 3min:18s, it was fabulous. My Celtic Critic
has a cold. I'm avoiding the virus, so we're both doing Carlo Rossi
Burgundy. Coffee first was Mondo Smooth, IMO.
I was thinking these were roasted separately, and the most I could say about
the profiles is that they started cold and got slowly hot according to the
T/C probe in the Fresh Roast.I watch the digital temperature readout for
numbers that match the engines I've seen inside: 140, 164, 180, 221, 265,
283, 289, 302, 318, 327, 348, 352, 368, 389, 390, 392, 396, 406, 421, 426,
427, 428, 429, 430, 440, 454 - - - . Some of these, if you've seen one,
you've seen them all. Ford is nuts- 332, 352, 361, 390, 406, 427, 428 are
real similar.
Try to hit each number twice- hard below 350 F, easy above, when I nurse=
 it
along.
Total time was 18 min+ , except 22m +  for the Green Stripe- one of my
favorites.
Cheers, Mabuhay and Magandang Umaga -RayO, aka Opa!
Got grinder?
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15) From: Frank Parth
Back in 2004 Willem J. Boot wrote an excellent series of articles on roasting in Roast magazine. One of them lookedat 
this question. Without violating any copywrite provisions here's a small part of one article:
Lower grown beans generally have a less solid bean structure than higher grown beans. The density of the bean 
structureis revealed by the shape and the position of the center cut. ...
What is the relationship between bean density and roasting? High-density beans have a denser cell structure and more 
cells per cubic millimeter than low-density beans. As a result, high-density beans are more resistance to heat, which 
will be especially noticeable during the first phase of roasting.
After the evaporation of free moisture, the color of the coffee beans starts changing from (light) green to yellow to 
light brown. During this color change, the bean starts expanding. With lower-density beans, the center cut will open 
more quickly, allowing for a faster transfer of heat, which will accelerate the process even further.
To develop an effective roast protocol, I recommend dividing green coffee beans into the following four categories:
I). Hard bean types: Roast these coffees with high initial heat and moderate heat in the final stage of the roast 
process. Examples: Kenya AA, Guatemala SHB and almost any coffee grown higher than 5,000 feet.
II). Medium hard bean types: Roast these coffees with moderate initial heat and moderate heat in the final stage. 
Examples: Brazil, Sumatra, Java and most Latin American coffees grown lower then 5,000 feet. 
III). Soft bean types: These coffees should be roasted with low to moderate heat during the entire process. Example: 
Hawaiian coffees, Caribbean types and beans grown lower than 3,500 feet.
IV). Fresh-crop coffees: These coffees normally have a bean structure that is not settled or hardened yet, especially 
if the coffee did not have its required resting or curing time. During the first 3_5 minutes, the operator should 
maintain a moderate roasting temperature, after which the roasting cycle can be continued according to the category 
indication that was described before.
Hope this helps.
Frank Parth
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16) From: Seth Grandeau
When the Behmor first came out and was rapidly adopted, I remember someone
suggesting that Tom should post a recommended Behmor profile for each bean.
Though I think that's TOO specific, maybe Tom can add a section to the bar
on the top where he calls out what type of profile to use ("high heat",
"gradual ramp", "slow ramp").
As a Behmor owner, I'd be OK with him actually saying "P1", "P2", etc, but
that's asking too much. :)
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17) From: Bruce Garley
Frank:
I used the Boots' articles for my initial research. The coffee listing he
gives is a good starting point, but could do with some expansion, especially
for us less experienced roasters.
Since then, I've lost the URL's to get to the articles. I originally got
them off this forum. If you still have them, could you list them here again?
Thanks, Bruce 
Bruce Garley
Plant Whisperer
San Juan Capistrano, CA
 
Vivir con miedo es como vivir a medias.
 
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18) From: Eddie Dove
Bruce,
Perhaps you are referencing the articles by Willem Boot at:http://www.bootcoffee.com/articles.htmlMore specifically, the "Ruling the Roast - I" article.
Eddie
-- 
Docendo Discimus
Home Coffee Roasting Blog and Referencehttp://southcoastcoffeeroaster.blogspot.com/On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Bruce Garley  wrote:
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19) From: Gary Frost
....My favorite 'coffee roasting 101' articles so I'll jump in with the link:http://www.bootcoffee.com/articles.htmlthe 'ruling the roast' articles are great.
On 11/13/08, Bruce Garley  wrote:
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20) From: Bill Van Huis
I took the intro to roasting class at SCAA in Minneapolis last year and we
basically roasted the same bean (a Yirgi) three ways:
1. Fast Ramp Up/No Temp Drop
2. Fast Ram Up/Temp Drop after 1st Crack
3. Slower Ramp Up/No Temp Drop
Everything went to 2nd crack. Then we cupped them.  They were all good of
course.
What I got from our instructor, a pro, was that when you get a new bean you
roast it a number of different ways, and you find what you like through a
trial and error process.
Coincidentally, these profiles roughly match up with Behmor P1, P2, and P3.
Having said that -- what's a good Behmor profile for Ethiopian beans?
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 10:41 PM, MikeG  wrote:
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21) From: Frank Parth
That would be it. That's where I downloaded the article.
Frank
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22) From: miKe mcKoffee
If you mean "one profile" for all beans absolutely not. If you mean one
profile for one bean type, it's again no. Even the same bean same lot
different stages of greens aging will require profile tweaking. Same bean
same lot same day roasted targeting different brewing methods may well use
different profile. Same bean same lot same day same target brewing method
different targeted days rest before first usage may be different profile...
That last one I've only read being done and have about zero experience or
knowledge of the how or benefits or etc's.
All with the caveat I consider myself a somewhat advanced home roaster yet a
rank beginner in the world of professional roasters. And of course I'm
running a smaller not larger professional roaster. (But man the little USRC
3k puppy can make da beans sing:-)
PS Feeling pretty good, three roast sessons in six days... today just a
little one doing three SO's and one new blend. (Caved to customer requests
for a "dark roast" and now offering a "Vienna Roast" on shelf, simple 2
beaner blend of an African and Indonesian, but so far continuing to refuse
offering a French Roast:-)
PSPS Short two day rested test shot of Tuesday's 32# Delirium batch blew me
away this evening. (Continuing saga tweaking the blend both some of the
profiles and bean elements/percentages. A saga that will never end.) Barely
any rough edges and already great balance, depth and wide range flavor
dance, pretty dang sure it's gonna really rock in another couple days.
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.NorwestCoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIIhttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/">http://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVII.htmSweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
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23) From: MikeG
Thank you Mike.  The responses to this thread have been a boon to this
genuine rank beginner.
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 10:54 PM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
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24) From: james McDougal
I thank you too, Mike. Interesting thread - I'll measure the density of
beans before roasting and collect some data, that I can hopefully learn
from.
Don't really know what to expect, but so far:
Moka Kadir blend = 81.3 grams/100ml
Guat. Hueheutenango = 84.0 grams/100ml
I realize that the size of the bean has some impact on this measurement (3
trials in a 100 ml glass lab beaker), but it should be a rough estimate.
Jim
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 11:23 PM, MikeG  wrote:
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