HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Fwd: Bitter brew (35 msgs / 940 lines)
1) From: Dean De Crisce
My good friend asked me why his coffee was always bitter in his new drip
brewer. I wrote an extended response, that I figured I would post. I am
humbled by the vast experience of group members here...but what the heck!
This is info that I have gathered, with which some may disagree (especially
with regards to overroasting), or I may be flat out rong about a few things.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: 
Date: Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 8:55 PM
Subject: Bitter brew
james...on the ride home, I've given thought to the dreaded bitter brew and
what to do about it.
Bitter coffee may be the result of a few things:
1. Over roasted coffee- the darker the roast, the more bitter (not entirely
the correct term, but may be perceived as such) the brew. French roast,
vienna roast or any roast which leaves oily beans should be avoided (IMHO).
Although they look sexy, carmelization of the oils destroys the delicate
varietal taste and burns the beans to charcoal. Charbucks is famous for
this. Avoid at all costs!!!
2. Poor quality coffee- good coffee is for the most part high grown arabica.
Low grown arabica or robusta is so horrible that voluminous amounts of sugar
and milk must be added to make it palatable. Unfortunately this is the only
coffee that 90 % of people know. Folgers, maxwell house, corner coffee
stands, all deli's etc. Can't make good coffee without good beans. Nothing
beats fresh roasted high quality arabica.
3. Poor equipment hygeine-dirty equipment leaves stale rancid bitter oils
which will adversely flavor your cup. Drip machines should be cleaned
regularly with citric acid or a bought product like clean caf. Grinders
should also be regularly cleaned by either taking out the burrs by hand and
cleaning or by running parboiled dry rice through the grinder every few
weeks.
4. Over extraction- a common cause with a number of nasty contributing
villans.
      a. Too long steep time- coffee should be steeped about 3 1/2 to 4
minutes. Since you have a drip, you probably don't have control over steep
time. If anything, drip brewers generally have short steep time. Not really
a problem or controllable variable.
      b. Grind too fine-bitterness is caused by the extraction of phenolic
acids in the grinds. The finer the grind (in relation to the steep time),
the greater the depth of water penetration in the grind particle. This can
extract not only the delicate oils you want, but also the bitter phenols.
Try larger grind.
      c. Too little coffee per water- the proper measure is 7 gm (1
Tablespoon) per 4-6 oz water. Since the steep time is fixed on a drip
brewer, if too little coffee used it will lead to greater water penetration
of the grind and over extraction. Try 1 tablespoon (7gm) coffee per 4 oz
water. I use a standard scoop (SCAA) that gives 10 oz coffee which I use
with 6 oz water.
      d. Poor quality grind- grinder quality is important. Poor grinders
give various size particles and dust...which is always over extracted.
Anyone can roast coffee with a ten dollar popcorn popper and make a
wonderful cup with a seven dollar french press...but a good grinder costs.
      e. Burned brew syndrome-after coffee is brewed it should be either
drunk right away or transferred to a thermal carafe. Leaving it on the
warmer will gradually burn the coffee into a syrup that could be used to
strip rust off your car engine.
f. Finally coffee brew temps: coffee is best brewed at 195-205 f. This is
not so easy to do. Stable temps are so difficult to create, comercial
espresso machines (which do nothing more than deliver high pressured hot
water) can cost more than a small car. The Technivorm is supposed to be one
of the most stable temp brewers...which is a 250 dollar drip machine!!! Much
cheaper to use a kettle, bring to a boil (212 f), wait a few seconds off
boil and pour into a french press.
Hope this is helpful on your journey to the amazing elixir of God.
Dean
Sent from a Treo phone.
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2) From: Steve Barber
Dean,
Everything that you told your friend makes perfect sense to me. Although I
have to admit that I am enjoying darker roasts than I used to. I like FC+ or
perhaps even a teeny bit darker. I am not much into Vienna or French roasts
however. The absolute worst cup of coffee I ever tasted was at Charbucks and
it was the new Pike's Place blend which is supposedly lighter - or less bold
- than their former house blend. I used to only go City or City+. Anyway,
taste is a very subjective thing....one person's elixir is another persons
dreck.
Steve
On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 10:26 AM, Dean De Crisce wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Rev. J. Stephen Barber
Vicar
Trinity Episcopal Church
PO Box 126
St. James, MO 65559
573-265-7667
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3) From: Seth Grandeau
Dean,
Very nice summary.  As I was reading it, a thought hit me.  My
sisters-in-law buy very expensive Kona coffee, and grind it fresh, but they
grind with a blade grinder for drip coffee.  I wonder which has a bigger
affect, the grinder or how freshly ground the coffee is?  Assuming the
coffee was consumed withing a week or two of grinding, would they be better
off buying whole bean and blade grinding before brewing or buying it
pre-ground, but presumably with a very good grind quality?  I may have just
thought up their gift for Christmas. :)
On 11/19/08, Dean De Crisce  wrote:
<Snip>
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4) From: Steve Barber
Seth,
All I know is that on my own personal coffee journey The very first step I
made was to start grinding directly before I brewed. I used a whirly blade -
heck, that is the only kind I knew there was. Didnt know a burr grinder from
a hole in the wall. My coffee experience improved dramatically just by
making that change. Then one thing led to another.........and I'm sure you
know the rest of the story.
Steve
On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 11:05 AM, Seth Grandeau  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Rev. J. Stephen Barber
Vicar
Trinity Episcopal Church
PO Box 126
St. James, MO 65559
573-265-7667
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5) From: Joseph Robertson
Seth,
For the very best results and taste in the cup always grind just before
brewing. Blade or burr, burr when you can afford it. After the coffee is
ground the quality and freshness goes down hill very rapidly. Never, never
buy pre-ground if you can any way avoid it. I have seen a Hearth-Ware
Supremo burr grinder for under 40 bucks. A good starter machine. Check and
see what Tom has listed in the way of burr grinders.
Best Regards,
JoeR
On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 9:05 AM, Seth Grandeau  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
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6) From: Ira
At 08:49 AM 11/19/2008, you wrote:
<Snip>
Funny you say that, I was in Las Vegas for SEMA staying at a really 
nice hotel, Signature Towers at the MGM, and had about the worst 
coffee of my life from a pot the waitress warned me was hot as it had 
just finished brewing. Starbucks was barely better and the best 
coffee I had all week was brewed in my room using the supplied giant 
coffee pods and the 4 cup brewer. I did use the hottest water the tap 
could provide and I think it cut the brew time enough to help.  I 
thought about bringing my own but couldn't figure out what to do for 
a grinder. I guess before the next trip I need to solve that problem.
Ira
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7) From: Dean De Crisce
Im sure others will have opinions about this...but I'd rather grind the
coffee fresh with a cheap whirly blade (which i use for travel)...than have
the preground coffee stale. Certain brew methods are more forgiving of the
whirly blade...like those with paper filters (such as drip or aeropress).
However the whirly blade would result in a defcon 5 code red status for a
french press or worse, an espresso machine.
On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Seth Grandeau  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Dean De Crisce, MD
Ann Klein Forensic Center
Special Treatment Unit
8 Production Way
Avenel, NJ 07001
732-499-5653
Mobile: 310-980-8715
decrisce.md
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8) From: Dean De Crisce
Im sure others will have opinions about this...but I'd rather grind the
coffee fresh with a cheap whirly blade (which i use for travel)...than have
the preground coffee stale. Certain brew methods are more forgiving of the
whirly blade...like those with paper filters (such as drip or aeropress).
However the whirly blade would result in a defcon 5 code red status for a
french press or worse, an espresso machine.
On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Seth Grandeau  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Dean De Crisce, MD
Ann Klein Forensic Center
Special Treatment Unit
8 Production Way
Avenel, NJ 07001
732-499-5653
Mobile: 310-980-8715
decrisce.md
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9) From: Carol Lugg
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10) From: David Martin
Regarding oily beans, I think it's a very common misconception that
really oily beans are an indicator of exceptional quality. At least
that is what I believed, before I got into roasting.
I didn't even understand that the oil is caused by very dark roasting;
I thought it was a (desirable) quality intrinsic to certain beans.
It's an honest mistake, I think - the beans appear to be so full of
flavorful oils that they are glistening with it. At the time I was
getting my beans from a good local microroaster, and I recall feeling
disappointed when I'd get beans from them which weren't oily. I have a
lot of sympathy for professional roasters, having to go up against
this sort of ignorance on the part of their customers.
The non-literal use of the term "sexy" to mean exciting and appealing
is well established, by the way. See:http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sexy-Dave
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 2:49 AM, Carol Lugg
 wrote:
<Snip>
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11) From: raymanowen
"...Blade or burr, burr when you can afford it."
Your logic is irrefutable. I posit the following consideration: An immense
labor has been expended to place the processed seeds of the coffee cherry in
your possession.
Of all the labor and process steps involved, you have complete control of
four:
   1. Storage
   2. Roasting and aging
   3. Grinding
   4. Brewing
   - Drip
   - Press
   - Vacuum
   - Espresso
   - Moka pot
   - Vietnamese filter
   - Coffee filter bag
See the bottle neck? A lot of variety converges on the grinder and diverges
again to be brewed.
The single little machine can inflict destruction on every bean. Why remove
such a delicious commodity from circulation just to put it at risk?
Cheers, Mabuhay and Magandang Gabi -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?
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12) From: Joseph Robertson
Two reasons off the top of my head. #1 Because I can. #2 "which might really
be #1", I'm an addicted to the wonderful cherries, I can't help myself.
JoeR
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 9:57 PM,  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
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13) From: raymanowen
For the price of a couple of tanks of Motion Lotion for the Land Barge, some
judicious shopping and dealing, you, too could give your beans the premium
treatment.
I got the Solis Maestro Plus with comical burrs and was frustrated that I
couldn't make step changes in the grind pitch and taste the difference in
the brew. The fine dust and bitter over extraction overwhelmed any possible
nuances in the flavor, and occur regardless of the filter in use.
If the wonderful cherries "need a particular grinder for espresso," but can
be ground by El Cheap-O for Drip or press pots, that means you can't taste
the difference. The cherries might as well be harvested by a machine or stay
on the vine.
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
If you feel Froggy, Leap!
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14) From: Joseph Robertson
So Ray,
Let me see if I understand the bottom line here. I know you have one. I just
want to be clear that I understand it or come close. Our search for the
perfect cup will never end as miKe M. puts it so well.
So, are you saying you can't taste the difference between  a cheap burr and
a top of the line burr grinder? Or is it conical and flat burrs?
If one of my customers has an upper end espresso machine, I try and sell
them a high end grinder to marry with it. If they are using an AP, pour
over, FP etc. I won't try and sell them a Mazzer SJ like I use but I will
try and explain the benefits of higher end grinders. I can and do taste the
difference. Knowing you by your posts I'm sure this is all runimentry to
you.
I just want to be on the same page as you regarding grinders and reasons to
use better ones. What brewing system were you using with your Solis Maestro
Plus when you experienced the fine dust and bitter over extraction?
JoeR
On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 3:00 AM,  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
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15) From: raymanowen
Every time I tried to make repeatable variations in the coffee brew- the
roast, storage, aging, grind... the Wild Card was always the Grinder. The
grinder always put out a lot of fine grounds in spite of the actual setting.
The Solis put out a lot of fines, due to the very rough cut upper burr. It
was never put right until Kyle Anderson, Baratza President, sent me a clean
set of burrs- Virtuoso burrs as it turned out. They worked very well, but
the Solis M+ already had a new home.
My friend and his wife could scarcely believe the improvement over the
Maestro burrs, that had replaced a blade grinder in the first place. I
could. Ray and Naida brew no espresso.
The Mazzer with new burrs still produces a few fines, but the proportion is
so much smaller, you can easily discern the effect of a change in the
grounds particulate size. 200 discrete steps are easily set, and nearly 100
of them are useful in the coffee grounds range.
Actually, I have split hairs and used six different settings in the espresso
grind range. Nice to be able to compensate for different beans, roast
levels, age, et cetera. The grinder sets the stage for every kind of coffee
infusion.
If you think you only need a good grinder for espresso, Turkish and flour
grinding but anything that exits the grinder in the coarse range is good
enough, I don't.
Cheers, Mabuhay and Magandang Umaga -RayO, aka Opa!
On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 10:52 PM, Joseph Robertson wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976
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16) From: Joseph Robertson
Ray,
Thank you for the clarification. Now I know we are on the same page. If I
gave you the impression that anything less than a "good" grind is ok, I do
regret that. When one gets into good home roast coffee usually the first
thing we find is the greatest weakness. Sometimes it takes some time to put
a finger on it. Then in my case and I think many others it takes even more
time to put enough $ in the jar to purchase a good grinder. For many years I
only ground my coffee with a Zass. Only tried to put it through an entry
level espresso machine once, Gaggia I think. No way, if it can't work here
it's time to retire it too my camp trips and AP. About that time I moved
into the commercial world of coffee. Got a good deal on a San Marco grinder,
I think I spelled it right. Ordered new burrs out of the gate. Wow, not one
of the top names in grinders but what control and nice looking grind. I
would like to do some particulate tests when I can to compare it with my
Super Jolly.
When it comes to blade grinders, I will never sell one but I might give the
only one I have to a person in need. That is after explaining giving them
the taste test between it and what can be achieved with a good burr. Ray do
you think a better use might be for hazel nuts?
Not only do I "Got Grinder" but I want to make sure I sell as many folks in
the right direction for a peak coffee experience or what ever peak they can
achieve. $ might not be able to buy you love but it sure can get you a nice
grinder if you pay attention to the wisdom on this list and the test of your
cup.
Cheers Ray,
JoeR
On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 2:39 AM,  wrote:
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17) From: Bob Hazen
Ray,
Which Mazzer are you using?
Bob

18) From: Michael Wascher
OK folks.
I've been using a Zassenhaus hand grinder for espresso, aquired from EBay. I
usually use a press pot, espresso is a weekend thing for me, if that, so
can't see spending hundreds on a grinder (my espresso machine is an
ex-Starbucks mahine cobbled together from 2 EBay acquisitions, a few bits
from the hardware store, and some replacement parts).
So what are the plusses & minuses of a good manual grinder v. a humongo
motorized grinder? The plus is I have espresso that is much beter than
anything I can find locally for an equipment investment of about $75 for
grinder & espresso machine.
--MikeW
On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Bob Hazen  wrote:
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19) From: Joseph Robertson
Super Jolly, timer model.
JoeR
On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 9:00 AM, Bob Hazen  wrote:
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20) From: Joseph Robertson
One plus is grind consistency resulting in more consistant and even
extraction. When I compared my Zass with the San Marco a 600.00 grinder
using the Gaggia it seemed like day and night. I could actually repeat a
shot. Results were much more consistant.  As to whether or not the expense
is worth it....The final test is in the cup? Are you happy with the results
as you brew now? Most or many of us on this list will forever search to
improve the results. Economics play a serious role here for sure. Keep
trying different combinations. Play with your passion.
JoeR
On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Michael Wascher  wrote:
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21) From: Angelo
Let us not forget that a blade grinder can be used to make a grind 
for Turkish coffee..It seems a shame to wear out burrs on a $600 
grinder when a simple blade grinder, or even a mortar & pestle will do...
snip...
<Snip>
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22) From: raymanowen
[no]thing less than a "good" grind is ok...
Semantics- That's my point. Visualize a delivery truck on a certain street
in Oakland, having to execute a 180° turn because at the last point of
refusal, the cargo was only "good" green coffee.
Can you imagine the scuttlebutt among Oakland delivery drivers- "Don't even
try to slip some Scheiße coffee to Sweet Maria's, or you're in for some
gymkhana driving practice!"
On a tip to the list from miKe, that some Mazzers were showing up on eBay, I
snooped and tried to bid. miKe really saved my butter because Karen, my
Celtic Critic honey OK'd a Mahlkonig Kenia, Antigua or, if I would hang on
to the blessed Bronco a couple more years, the 100 pound job that will grind
a pound to Turkish in 10 seconds. Who needs all that?
The Major grinds for a double shot in barely more than "Pfft" time. (Maybe 1
more f would do it!)
Here's a tip from Ray: remember all the *$ coffee emporiums that they
recently closed? They had just upgraded to push button automatic coffee
dispenser stuff, in deference to all the personnel they hired and couldn't
make training stick. Remember that fiasco? Keep your eyes peeled on eBay.
This push button automatic coffee dispenser stuff will show up, if not
already.
Cheers, Mabuhay and Magandang Tanghali -RayO, aka Opa!
enjoying a shot of Costa Rica from the midnight roast... (Time, not color)
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23) From: raymanowen
Machines are designed and built with a functional criterion. Making shavings
of a certain size, rather than creating an exact surface finish on a solid
part is the coffee grinder's function.
If a $600 grinder's cutting tools are damaged by any particular setting, the
whole shiny thing is likely a $600 toy. The toy has mostly been designed to
fit under the cabinets over a kitchen counter. The $20 weed whacker can even
be out of the way in a drawer and give $580 change.
The mortar and pestle is definitely not for the weak of wrist. It will cost
more than $20 and would be the tool of choice when grinding a single bean.
Electric power would be welcome if you want more than an analytical sample
Cheers, Mabuhay and Magandang Hapon -RayO, aka Opa!
Anything will do when grinding coffee is a minor consideration
On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 1:07 PM, Angelo  wrote:
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24) From: Joseph Robertson
Angelo,
If you give the blade grinder a try for Turkish coffee let us know how it
works out. My memory of having Turkish coffee was that all the extremely
fine grounds are consumed when you drink the coffee. Any remaining chips
from the blade grinder might get stuck between your teeth.
JoeR
On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Angelo  wrote:
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25) From: Angelo
Joe,
I never used a blade grinder for Turkish. I am merely repeating Tom's 
suggestion from somewhere. If you run the blade grinder for long 
enough, and with some shaking, I doubt that you will get any "chips" 
in your teeth.  Btw, you don't have to "eat" the grounds. It's optional... :-)
<Snip>
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26) From: Angelo
At 06:16 PM 11/24/2008, you wrote:
<Snip>
I wasn't talking about "damage" to the burrs but rather "wear". It 
would seem to me, and I might be wrong, that grinding smaller pieces 
produces more wear. The use of a blade grinder for Turkish is 
mentioned by Tom, somewhere, and I thought it was a good suggestion. 
I have never had to prove that.
<Snip>
  Ray,
I saw a nice granite M&P at Ikea for $9.95.  Less, in thrift shops...
Roasted coffee beans are not very hard. I can easily crush them 
between my fingers. In an M&P I can pulverize a shot's worth in about 
15 seconds with very little wear on my wrists.
<Snip>
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27) From: Joseph Robertson
Angelo,
Sorry about my misunderstanding. As to eating the grounds, I remember it was
more like drinking them because they are virtually in solution when ground
to almost a flour consistency for Turkish. It would be fun to do some
Turkish demo's at our shop. My partner brought back an Ibrik "did I spell it
right", she found at a second hand shop when visiting Egypt last year. I
wonder what roast level would be good for Turkish?
JoeR
On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Angelo  wrote:
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28) From: Royalcoffeedubai Fzco
dark roast is good for turkish coffee.
Sam =
From: Joseph Robertson 
To: homeroast
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 4:24:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Fwd: Bitter brew
Angelo,
Sorry about my misunderstanding. As to eating the grounds, I remember it was
more like drinking them because they are virtually in solution when ground
to almost a flour consistency for Turkish. It would be fun to do some
Turkish demo's at our shop. My partner brought back an Ibrik "did I spell it
right", she found at a second hand shop when visiting Egypt last year. I
wonder what roast level would be good for Turkish?
JoeR
On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Angelo  wrote:
<Snip>
and
<Snip>
ee.com
<Snip>
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29) From: Cameron Forde
I think that the reason that finer grinds wear burrs out faster is
simply that the machine is running longer.  If I have to run the
machine twice as long to grind twice as fine then I get twice the
wear.  It is too bad that the manufacturers choose to express their
burr lifetimes in pounds because 600 lbs of espresso grinding is going
to produce a lot more wear on the burrs than 600 lbs of FP grinding.
Cameron
On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:33 AM, Angelo  wrote:
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30) From: Joseph Robertson
Right on Cameron. In sales I'm sure they are looking for mid point for
marketing purposes.  But if you were to apply full disclosure in advertising
lets have the full truth and break down what the expected life span would /
should be when grinding for different brew systems. It would sure help me
when searching for my next grinder.
JoeR
On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Cameron Forde  wrote:
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31) From: Michael Dhabolt
Cameron,
IMHO, I've found the advertised #s used by Mazzer and other commercial
grinders (primarily sold as espresso grinders) to be fairly accurate
when being used for espresso grind.  Probably means that they would
last twice as long for FP etc.
Mike (just plain)
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32) From: Joseph Robertson
Mike,
Thanks for sharing your experience with data on this topic. It's hard to
tell what sales talk and #'s mean till someone like you runs some machines /
grinders for a few years. I have been hoping the #'s apply to espresso after
investing some $'s on high end grinders.
JoeR
On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Michael Dhabolt 

33) From: Cameron Forde
Hi Michael,
I wasn't trying to suggest that there is something dishonest in the
companies using pound ratings -- though I can see how what I wrote
could be interpreted that way.  I was lamenting that the ratings give
the impression that the mass of beans put through the grinder
determine the life of the burrs, when it is the time spent grinding
that determines the lifetime of the burrs.  I don't see the companies
changing to a lifetime in hours and I don't think that it would help
the consumer if they did.  I like to be able to understand the reason
behind why things happen and this is a case of where the underlying
principle is masked.
Has anyone measured the time to grind a set amount of beans for the
two methods?  My hunch is that it would take less than half as long
for the coarser grind.  I think that I have that impression from using
my hand grinders for both.  Speaking of which, I picked up an old
Fassenhaus box mill last week off Ebay and it grinds as well as the
new Zassenhaus knee mill that I bought from Tom.  Both are capable of
grinding for espresso.  Some have posted that the they have found that
the box mills are not as capable.
Cameron
On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Michael Dhabolt
 wrote:
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34) From: Joseph Robertson
Cameron,
I guess I need more practice grinding with my Zass for espresso. I only
tried a few times for use with my consumer grade Gaggia. If you have a
choice I would say don't bother. Once you have a chance to use a high end
grinder it's hard to go back. Now, I'm only refering to espresso brewing
here. If it works for you go for it. Bottom line is always in the cup. It is
an understatement to say quality espresso machines are finicky when it comes
to grind supplied to them. I have since moved to a Faema commercial machine
with my business so Zass grinders are used for display purposes.
On the flip side I brew with an AP for my home morning cup. My old Zass does
great with it. I like the morning Zass grind ritual. It's part of my am
rebirth. I collect old Zass grinders. Beautiful little boxes. My fav is the
turkish model. Great backpackers coffee solution.
Happy Turkey day,
JoeR
On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 12:47 PM, Cameron Forde  wrote:
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35) From: Cameron Forde
Hi JoeR,
I usually use my Mazzer mini for espresso grinding (I have a La
Spaziale S1, which I'm really happy with), but I like the fact that
the Zass mills can do the job, too.  I have also picked up a Peugeot
box mill that works well for espresso.  The Trosser that I bought
wasn't up to the task -- too much fines.  Maybe once I've collected a
PeDe and a Tre Spade I'll stop looking for another hand grinder?
I got my first espresso machine, a Faema home machine, in 1990.  I
bought a Faema burr grinder with it (which I still have but don't
use).
Cameron
On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Joseph Robertson  wrote:
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