HomeRoast Digest


Topic: How many cracks from one bean during 1 and 2 (25 msgs / 580 lines)
1) From: sci
Does anybody know how many times a single bean cracks at first crack?
Is it like popcorn, cracking once.
What about second crack? It seems that a single bean cracks more than once
during second crack, but I'd like to know.
Ivan
"Coffee-Animal"
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

2) From: miKe mcKoffee
Roast one bean. Count the number of cracks for 1st and 2nd. Repeat ten times
to confirm findings. Report results.
:-)
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

3) From: Luis Zaman
Man this sounds like a good idea.
But I think you may need more than 10 times to be statistically  
significant, lets see the error bars!
Maybe try a few different types of beans. Get some WP and DP beans,  
and see if there is a difference.
Luis
On Dec 7, 2008, at 12:45 AM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

4) From: Joseph Robertson
miKe,
You forgot to add, be sure and take an average of all cracks then report
results.
<];^)
JoeR
On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 9:45 PM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

5) From: Jim Gundlach
And be prepared to be attacked by those who don't like the results  
attacking you for the small Number of observations.
        pecan jim
On Dec 7, 2008, at 10:00 AM, Joseph Robertson wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

6) From: Joseph Robertson
Good point Jim,
JR
On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 8:57 AM, Jim Gundlach  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

7) From: Rich
Determine the mean also....
Joseph Robertson wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

8) From: Luis Zaman
I don't know how many people on this list are scientists, but you guys  
are making me smile!
Lets see if anyone can come up with a motivation for this experiment?  
I don't see any inherent value in predicting the number of cracks a  
bean will incur, but maybe I'm just too closed minded.
I suppose if you were able to predict with some confidence the number  
of cracks each bean will have, you'd be able to quantify exactly where  
in a roast the batch is just by the number of popping sounds heard.
This could be fun :).
Luis
On Dec 7, 2008, at 12:48 PM, Rich wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

9) From: Joseph Robertson
Hey thats being mean....
JR
On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 9:48 AM, Rich  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

10) From: Robert Yoder
Are Wise Cracks counted?
 
robertyoder> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 08:00:59 -0800> From: theotherjo> To: homeroast> Subject: Re: [Homeroast] How many cracks from one bean during 1 and 2> > miKe,> You forgot to add, be sure and take an average of all cracks then report> results.> <];^)> JoeR> > On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 9:45 PM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:> > > Roast one bean. Count the number of cracks for 1st and 2nd. Repeat ten> > times> > to confirm findings. Report results.> > :-)> >> >> > >

11) From: kevin creason
 wrote:
<Snip>
oh lordy, he'll never be able to stop counting if this list is anywhere
nearby.
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

12) From: raymanowen
"Roast one bean.
Count the number of cracks for 1st and 2nd.
Repeat ten times [*] to confirm findings.
Report results."
 * Roast Ten beans and count fast. Divide results by ten or...
What miKe said, but at this [*] point, the math Mean, Mode or Average will
determine the next step taken. Identify results when reported.
Cheers, Mabuhay and magandang Gabi -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

13) From: raymanowen
"Roast one bean.
Count the number of cracks for 1st and 2nd.
Repeat ten times [*] to confirm findings.
Report results."
 * Roast Ten beans and count fast. Divide results by ten or...
What miKe said, but at this [*] point, the math Mean, Mode or Average will
determine the next step taken. Identify results when reported.
Cheers, Mabuhay and magandang Gabi -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

14) From: Gary Frost
Are you roasted until you crack yet Ivan?  ;^)
According to my detailed statistical analysis of many roasts, the
average time duration, intensity of first crack, and how many beans
are in each batch, it is likely that each bean can only crack once.
Now if you don't get enough heat on them soon enough, they may not
crack at all here.
For second crack I have no statistical data as I don't typically go
there at least far enough to know how many times a bean may crack so
I'll take a guess that if you hit them hard and fast enough with
enough heat they will explode multiple times before turning entirely
to smoke and ash. You will have to investigate second crack as I like
my beans a bit lighter.
On 12/6/08, sci  wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

15) From: sci
Errr...yea...thanks guys. I get the picture.
Does it seem to ya'll like second cracks are more proliferate than first
cracks. I'd venture to guess that the bean cracks more than once during
second crack, perhaps once at each end of the bean. Why does it matter? So
we can better understand the dynamics of what's going on during those crack
windows.
Re: roast one bean. Not a bad idea, but I'd need to roast one bean, measure
results, and repeat many times.
I hoped some Coffee Ph.D. could just tell me.
Ivan
"Coffee Animal"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 10:28:52 -0800
From: "Joseph Robertson" 
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] How many cracks from one bean during 1 and 2
To: homeroast, rich-mail
Message-ID:
       <8bc61fb50812071028h4c1a9415xb1eba85b59793438>
Content-Type: text/plain; charsetO-8859-1
Hey thats being mean....
JR
On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 9:48 AM, Rich  wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

16) From: Bob Glasscock
This thread is really crackin' me up!!
Bob Glasscock
Errr...yea...thanks guys. I get the picture.
Does it seem to ya'll like second cracks are more proliferate than first
cracks. I'd venture to guess that the bean cracks more than once during
second crack, perhaps once at each end of the bean. Why does it matter? So
we can better understand the dynamics of what's going on during those crack
windows.
Re: roast one bean. Not a bad idea, but I'd need to roast one bean, measure
results, and repeat many times.
I hoped some Coffee Ph.D. could just tell me.
Ivan
"Coffee Animal"
Hey thats being mean....
JR
On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 9:48 AM, Rich  wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

17) From: james McDougal
Ivan, you could probably roast 10 beans at a time and still be able to count
the cracks.
Can't wait for the results - this is a question I have asked before.
Mac
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 12:25 AM, sci  wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

18) From: Robert Yoder
The result may not be all it's cracked up to be.
 =
name withheld by request (aka robertyoder, aka Hoop-E)> From: bobglass=
urytel.net> To: homeroast> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 200=
8 06:46:56 -0600> Subject: Re: [Homeroast] How many cracks from one bean du=
ring 1 and 2> > This thread is really crackin' me up!!> > Bob Glasscock> > =
Errr...yea...thanks guys. I get the picture.> > Does it seem to ya'll like =
second cracks are more proliferate than first> cracks. I'd venture to guess=
 that the bean cracks more than once during> second crack, perhaps once at =
each end of the bean. Why does it matter? So> we can better understand the =
dynamics of what's going on during those crack> windows.> > Re: roast one b=
ean. Not a bad idea, but I'd need to roast one bean, measure> results, and =
repeat many times.> I hoped some Coffee Ph.D. could just tell me.> > Ivan> =
"Coffee Animal"> > > Hey thats being mean....> JR> > On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at=
 9:48 AM, Rich  wrote:> > > Determine the mean also.=
...> >> >> > Joseph Robertson wrote:> >> >> miKe,> >> You forgot to add, be=
 sure and take an average of all cracks then report> >> results.> >> <];^)>=
 >> JoeR> >>> >> On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 9:45 PM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:> >>> >> Roast one bean. Count the number of cracks for 1st =
and 2nd. Repeat ten> >>> times> >>> to confirm findings. Report results.> >=
<Snip>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:59 PM> >>>> Subject: [Homeroast] How ma=
ny cracks from one bean during 1 and 2> >>>>> >>>> Does anybody know how ma=
ny times a single bean cracks at first crack?> >>>> Is it like popcorn, cra=
cking once.> >>>> What about second crack? It seems that a single bean crac=
ks> >>>> more than once> >>>> during second crack, but I'd like to know.> >=
<Snip>> Homeroast mailing list> Homeroast=
<Snip>
ee.com> Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmari=ascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
Suspicious message? There’s an alert for that. =http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broa=d2_122008
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee=.com
Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820

19) From: sci
I guess I better get cracking on this project before some other crackerjack
roaster beats me to the finish line.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:20:17 -0500
From: "james McDougal" 
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] How many cracks from one bean during 1 and 2
To: homeroast
Message-ID:
       <18989fef0812080720q2fd7d684pad51038d69cf571b>
Content-Type: text/plain; charsetO-8859-1
Ivan, you could probably roast 10 beans at a time and still be able to count
the cracks.
Can't wait for the results - this is a question I have asked before.
Mac
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 12:25 AM, sci  wrote:
<Snip>
crack
<Snip>
measure
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

20) From: Thomas Dove
You know why there are not many lady test pilots, they crack up =
 =
 =
<Snip>
 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 06:46:56 -0600> Subject: Re: [Homeroast] How many cr=
acks from one bean during 1 and 2> > This thread is really crackin' me up!!=
<Snip>
t seem to ya'll like second cracks are more proliferate than first> cracks.=
 I'd venture to guess that the bean cracks more than once during> second cr=
ack, perhaps once at each end of the bean. Why does it matter? So> we can b=
etter understand the dynamics of what's going on during those crack> window=
s.> > Re: roast one bean. Not a bad idea, but I'd need to roast one bean, m=
easure> results, and repeat many times.> I hoped some Coffee Ph.D. could ju=
st tell me.> > Ivan> "Coffee Animal"> > > Hey thats being mean....> JR> > O=
n Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 9:48 AM, Rich  wrote:> > > Det=
ermine the mean also....> >> >> > Joseph Robertson wrote:> >> >> miKe,> >> =
You forgot to add, be sure and take an average of all cracks then report> >=
<Snip>
mcKoffee  wrote:> >>> >> Roast one bean. Count the numb=
er of cracks for 1st and 2nd. Repeat ten> >>> times> >>> to confirm finding=
s. Report results.> >>> :-)> >>>> >>>> >>>

21) From: sci
It is peculiar to me that everybody on this list wants to know everything
about coffee, machines, grinders, etc. etc. ad infinitum, but when some
quizzical soul asks why there are so many more second cracks than first
cracks, ya'll crack-up.
Ok, here's how this began. Using a fairly quiet air popper, I listened to
the number of cracks in first crack. Not a specific number, just a memorized
guesstimate, kinda like closing your eyes and remembering what the Grand
Canyon looks like. Then I listened to the same batch roll on up into second
crack. I observed that there's a lot more cracks, and they were more
excited. Yes they are different, but more numerous. IMHO, There's no logical
reason that a bean can't crack more than once. If so, it is possible in the
second crack window, with multiple cracks, that different results would
occur if the roast was carried out only as far as one crack, or two, or
whatever.
So, why don't we just get Ray O to fabricate a microphone to count the
cracks like a geiger counter, then we could outift our roasters with this
contraption to keep track of exactly how many beans in our roasts have
cracked and how many haven't, and how many times, perhaps by use of
percentages. This would allow for extremely precise and repeatable roasts,
no? This would be more precise than temperature, time, color, or smell in
regulating roasts (since all those depend on ambient/sensual variables).
Just imagine that finding out that a WP Yirg. tastes perfect at a City roast
which is just when 65% of the beans have hit first crack. This may only be
helpful for mid-crack roasts like C, FC, FC+
FWIW,
Ivan
"Coffee Animal"
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 13:02:25 -0500
From: Luis Zaman 
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] How many cracks from one bean during 1 and 2
To: homeroast, rich-mail
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
I don't know how many people on this list are scientists, but you guys
are making me smile!
Lets see if anyone can come up with a motivation for this experiment?
I don't see any inherent value in predicting the number of cracks a
bean will incur, but maybe I'm just too closed minded.
I suppose if you were able to predict with some confidence the number
of cracks each bean will have, you'd be able to quantify exactly where
in a roast the batch is just by the number of popping sounds heard.
This could be fun :).
Luis
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

22) From: Luis Zaman
The problem is only that you'd have to account for the possibility  
that some beans in a batch will not crack. So actually, the  
experiments should be run with full batches. And the batch should be  
be stopped maybe by temperature? Then we can all have a cheap  
alternative to fitting all our roasters with internal temperature  
monitors! You would also need to figure out per bean, and per type of  
bean, etc.
But, the big thing is that this would have be controlled by some set  
of probabilities. Like a Bayesian Belief Network, or some Latent  
Variable distribution. So, there's some data mining to be done here!
Oh and, does anyone know why the list wouldn't post your reply until  
days later, consistently?
Luis
On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:37 PM, sci wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

23) From: raymanowen
It could be done, but do the beans react more than once at Second, or is
First Crack less than unity response? Check out the 'Bay for a stethoscope
as part of a sphygmomanometer blood pressure set up. Think I saw a cheap
stethoscope for $10 online from a medical supply site.
Disconnect the head and splice a metal pipe to the plastic line, add a
condenser mike inline so you can listen and scope the signal with a scope
and a counter.
I could pretend to be a fancy roaster if I got a Leeds & Northrup multi
channel strip chart recorder with four type K thermocouple inputs. Egad,
they're cheap compared to 35- 45 years ago! A Hard Copy of the roasting
profile would show that you're a big roaster.
You couldn't program the PLC to terminate the roast after an arbitrary
number of cracks unless you knew how many beans you started with.
Honeybucket recorder/ controllers had a curve follower that would follow a
curve you drew on the chart with a certain blue marker. Draw the profile
(Time and Temperature) you want on the chart, and the recorder pens would
show the process following your curve.
The L&N recorders, Sartorius and Beckman electronic balances are going for
pocket change. Measure your coffee to 0.001g directly. I interpolated a Cahn
electronic balance to 0.00001g so it would read 0.0001g directly and not
drift out for the whole calibration cycle.
Cheers, Mabuhay and Magandang Umaga -RayO, aka Opa!
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:37 PM, sci  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

24) From: Jim Gundlach
If a coffee bean cracks, either first or second, and no one hears it,  
did it crack?       I think the problem is not the bean cracking, but  
rather the roaster being able to hear the audible product of the crack.
       pecan jim
On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:37 PM, sci wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

25) From: Gary Frost
I was at least more than half serious with my reply Ivan. I think the
intensity and duration, and the length of time between cracks can tell
you alot about your roast and beans. (I roast with a Poopery 1 probed
with bean temp and MET probe, controlled heater with variac and fan on
separate variac) If you take too long to get to first crack and dry
the beans too much you will have a weak first crack. If you have an
intense and brief first crack followed immediately by second then you
are moving too fast (too much heat) through this region of the roast.
If you have an intense second crack (I think) you are burning the
beans ;^)   I like to get a healthy first crack and usually the
duration is around 2 minutes from start to finish. I usually want to
have about 3-4 minutes from start of first crack until the roast is
finished (for my taste).  The exceptions are plenty like a DP
Ethiopean that doesn't roast even will have a more spread out crack
duration. A bean lot that is very uniform will tend to more compact
times.  The nature of the cracks can tell you about the roast but I
don't think you need to count each one to get a feel for what it can
tell you.
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/listinfo.cgi/homeroast-sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20


HomeRoast Digest