HomeRoast Digest


Topic: vacpot implosion (33 msgs / 1041 lines)
1) From: Douglas Hoople
Hi All,
It didn't take long, did it? After a few weeks of tremendous beginner's
luck, I've stubbed my toe on the Yama 5-cup vacpot with the Cona glass
drainer.
Can't say I wasn't warned. Right there on the SM website, where you order
the Yama, there's a warning about this implosion hazard, and an admonishment
to just jiggle the drainer if the pot stalls.
There's a minor problem with that... by the time you notice that the pot has
stalled, the vacuum seal is tight enough that the drainer won't jiggle. It
may be that, in some cases, the stalling vacuum seal is not as tight and
that jiggling is an option, but in my case the seal was very tight.
Well, I had three stalls. In the first two, I had to empty the funnel and
force the drainer out, which is a nerve-wracking operation. In the third, I
thought I spied just enough bubbling action that, given a little extra time,
it might release itself, leaving a highly overextracted pot, but no further
damage. I got distracted and didn't get back to it until my wife and I heard
the report of a sharp crack emanating from the kitchen. I didn't even have
to look to know what happened.
I'm getting on SM right after I hit the Send button and ordering another
Yama 5-cup. I love vacpot coffee, and have just started to get the hang of
it for really consistently excellent coffee.
So I'm going to have to figure out what to do the next time I get a stall.
BTW, today's stalls are the first I've had, and I'd be surprised if I've
made any fewer than 100 pots of coffee. So I need to figure out what I was
doing. I have a theory... It's a bit embarrassing, but here goes...
I visited Blue Bottle in San Francisco for the first time yesterday, and
they have a halogen-driven siphon bar there. Having just started with the
vacpot myself, I was fascinated with how they were approaching their vacpot
practices (vacpot and siphon are the same thing). Were they doing anything
differently, better, worse? Their vacpot coffee was really good, as you'd
expect, but no better than mine (I thought to myself). But that didn't
prevent me from trying to find out if they had any special mojo that they
were using.
When I got home, I did a little Internet searching and stumbled upon the New
York Times article going ga-ga over Blue Bottle's highly ritualistic
acquisition of their $20,000 siphon bar. In it, the Blue Bottle guy was
waxing lyrical about the perfection of the stirring strokes required for the
perfect siphon cup, and how he practiced for months in plain water in
preparation before he allowed himself to approach the real thing. All very
old-world, very Zen-like, very Japanese. I lived in Japan for a little over
a year, and I know the pride the Japanese bring to their manual arts. But I
also know that some of the Zen-like perfect piety that they bring to those
manual arts is a bit of Kabuki, highly ritualized theater. Sorry, but some
of it is just silly nonsense designed to keep apprentices and customers in
their place and in awe.
Well, the schtick was that the perfect motion of the carefully
custom-crafted bamboo stirring paddle yields a perfect whirlpool that
deposits a "dome" at the base of the funnel covered in a shimmering sheet of
bubbles. I tried it with a table knife last night, and got a righteously
good-looking dome with a shimmering sheet of bubbles on my first try... and
no big difference in the cup. Something I'm still missing, obviously. The
right attitude, months of practice and meditation, and $20,000, maybe?
The key to the dome appears to be a late stir at the initiation of the
cooling step. And I guess I had unwittingly moved my stirring to that point
in the cycle (it was pretty random before that, both in terms of the
direction and timing of the stirs).
Is it possible that the whirlpooling stir just as the vacuum reverses is
driving the grounds back into the drainer in a way that triggers the stall?
I noticed also that they were using the chain-and-cloth arrangement on the
vacpots at Blue Bottle, which might help prevent stalling. I mean, that's
all I was doing differently. Same beans, same roasting levels,
same measurements, same grinder settings. The only difference was in how I
was stirring the brew in the funnel.
Or was it just the luck of the draw, and was going to happen exactly then
anyway!?
Sorry, this got a little long, but I, at least, am entertained by my Zen
failure! Whoever said that the Zen Gods are too serious to have a sense of
humor?
Doug
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2) From: Jack M. Rogers
Doug,
I haven't yet added the vac pot to my arsenal, but I loved the post--especially the discussion about Japan and Kabuki.
Jack

3) From: Seth Grandeau
Doug,
Your problem probably has more to do with getting fines or ground up chaff
in your grinds than when you stir.  Sorry to hear about the implosion.  I
have the 8 cupper and I've had some stalls, but never any damage.  I will
use the plastic stirry thing to nudge the glass rod back and forth and try
to get some syphoning action going.  I've never had a complete stall.
Good luck with the new one.
-Seth
On 2/8/09, Douglas Hoople  wrote:
<Snip>
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4) From: Jeff Bensen
At 12:42 PM 2/8/2009, Douglas Hoople wrote:
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
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<Snip>
<Snip>
Doug -
I brew in a Cona vac pot every day, and fought the same battles. My 
own personal experience has lead me to the following conclusions:
Stirring the upper chamber at the start of the draw-down phase does 
lead to the dome of coffee around the glass rod. Although the dome is 
impressive when brewing for company, I have not noticed much 
difference in taste.
If I do get a stall, I've found that re-applying the heat source 
until the vacuum releases is the best option if jiggling the glass 
rod does not help.
Even though I grind with a Rocky and replace the burrs about every 60 
pounds I used to get occasional stalls, especially when the burrs 
were toward the end of what I consider to be their useful life. In 
fact, the onset of stalls is what usually triggered a new burr order 
for me. At this point, stirring to get a dome would increase the 
likelihood of a stall for me.
I have no experience with the cloth and chain filter arrangement, but 
intuitively it would seem to be more immune to stalling.
My solution to all this has been to always sift the grounds before 
brewing. I use one of those little fine-mesh strainers found in most 
grocery store household goods isles. They are about 3" in diameter 
and have a visibly finer mesh than a regular strainer. It does take a 
few minutes but I feel the results are worth it. I put a heaping 
tablespoon of grounds in the sifter, shake a little then tap the side 
with a spoon to dislodge the dust getting trapped in the mesh. I 
repeat until little or no dust falls out when I tap. I transfer this 
into a cup for dumping into the vac pot, then start sifting the next 
heaping tablespoon.
The plus side of doing this has been a cleaner tasting cup of coffee 
from the vac pot and not one stall since starting this practice. I 
also put the resulting dust in a small jar and use that to brew 
Turkish coffee in an ibrik every few days, thereby expanding my 
brewing options.
I hope this helps.
- Jeff Bensen (who has not posted here in a *long* time!)
   Palm Bay, FL
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5) From: Brian Kamnetz
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 6:26 PM, Jeff Bensen  wrote:
<Snip>
Jeff,
I love the idea of using fines in an ibrik. I have looked at the
little strainers now and then but have never bought one. Maybe I will
just for the impetus for using my ibrik again.
Brian
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6) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
Wow - sorry to hear about that. At home we have had 2 times where the 
brewer locked up, but never had it actually crack. And thats in 3 
years! So I wonder if there is anything else involved - and my first 
thought is grind. I think a fine grind (or, a coarser grind that has 
fine particles in it) could contribute to this. My other concern 
would be the surface of the Cona vac rod. It should be pebbley and 
coarse, not smooth. I have seen some with a slight ridge from tha 
cast, and that is not a bad thing either - mine has that and works 
well. The idea is that in maintain a slight gap, and not lock up, 
which a smooth surface would do. That's a couple ideas.
<Snip>
-- 
-Tom
"Great coffee comes from little roasters" - Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting
               Thompson & Maria -http://www.sweetmarias.com     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - info_at_sweetmarias.com
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7) From: raymanowen
*Dj vu all over again- *
"...use one of those little fine-mesh strainers found in most grocery store
household goods isles. They are about 3" in diameter and have a visibly
finer mesh than a regular strainer. It does take a few minutes but I feel
the results are worth it."
Need any more proof that whatever you use for a grinder could better be used
as a striking device?
If you are determined that your coffee is unworthy of a better grinder, get
two sets of replacement burrs for your present machine and press on.
Vacuum pots do not implode because the vacuum overstresses the glass,
otherwise, incandescent light bulbs would have experienced disastrous
failures, along with TV picture tubes, etc.
Until the coffee down flow is stalled, there is actually very little
"vacuum" in the lower pot. Drip pots work all day long with gravity only- no
vacuum whatsoever.
If the flow is blocked and a vacuum actually develops in the lower pot, the
vacuum can be no higher than the barometric pressure, about 14.7 psi on
average at sea level.
That pressure will shove the funnel into the lower pot with an actual force
of about 70 pounds. The beveled pot neck and tapered funnel at the mating
end will develop some incredible resultant forces because of the angles
involved.
Assemble a pot you can sacrifice, lay a book over the top of the funnel and
press down with 20++ pounds of force, like a hefty tamp. The sound of
shattering glass will be due to the neck crackinging, not the lower globe
imploding.
If you like excitement and the flashing lights of emergency vehicles,
continue to abandon any of your pushbutton roasters or any brewing device
before it's cold, clean and empty.
If you don't have time for it, Starbucks or 7-11 has coffee waiting for
you...
Cheers, Mabuhay und viel Glck -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder? Got Insurance?
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8) From: John Grubbs
Doug,
I'd like to second Jeff's recommendation concerning what to do when the vac
pot stalls. As long as there is still water remaining in the lower bowl,
putting the pot back on the heat should re-build the pressure in the lower
bowl. Once the lower bowl pressure builds back up to near atmospheric, the
pressures above and below the glass rod will be close to equal, and the
"lock" on the glass rod should release. The brew may be lost, but better
than breaking glass.
John, in Birmingham
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9) From: Jeff Kilpatrick
<Snip>
I had a vacpot implode once after a stall caused by forgetting to re-adjust
my grinder after changing methods.  An almost perfect disc of glass was
pulled out of the bottom up into the decanter.  It was quite impressive.  I
would take that to mean it was caused by vacuum.
I know this may sound cheeky, but I mean it in a very sincere way: if vacuum
doesn't cause implosion, what does?  I do admit I'm a little skeptical of
comparing vacpots to incandescent bulbs and cathode ray tubes, since the
former are actually full of inert gas (e.g. argon or nitrogen) and the glass
of the latter is much sturdier than vacpot glass.  Again, I'm not trying to
start something or look smart, I'm just very curious.
Thanks,
-other jeff
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10) From: Douglas Hoople
Thanks, everyone, for the suggestions.
I think the #1 idea is re-heating the pot if the rod doesn't budge.
I do think that the root cause was fines in the grind, but that the
triggering cause was the difference in the settling pattern during the
drawdown.
There's a quality grinder in my future, for sure. Independent of the stall,
I've been studying the whys and wherefores of a good grinder, and now know
that my Krups GVX2 (which I never represented as anything special) is one of
those grinders that has "speed bumps" on the burrs, and that the speed bumps
will randomize the production of fines.  So even in a coarse grind, I'll
still get fines.
But the next speed bump that I'll have to negotiate is telling my wife that
our budget needs to be revised to replace a grinder that, to all outward
appearances, still works fine. If I don't negotiate that speed bump
properly, the randomized fines will be from bits of my butt! :-) Look for
this ordeal to take me at least until my birthday in April.
But I do know for sure that the next time the pot stalls, I'm not going to
walk away from it.
BTW, I wish I had a picture... the break was along the bottom of the pot, at
the turn of the flat, leaving a nice, clean circle for the most part. The
whole upper part of the pot was comipletely intact, but the flat bottom was
in pieces.
I'm still sold on vacpots, so this is just the beginning, not the end! I've
been drinking Chemex drip today, and while it's good coffee, it's just not
the same!
Doug
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11) From: Michael Dhabolt
As has been mentioned several times in this thread, my solution to
similar circumstances has been to bring the pot back to a slow boil
(low heat) to eliminate the vacuum and remove the glass filter.
Moving to a considerably upgraded grinder solved the problem
(decreased the fines in the grind).
Mike (just plain)
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12) From: Michael I
As I mentioned a couple of weeks ago, this is also what I've done when  
I've had lock ups, with no negative side effects (apart from having to  
throw out over extracted coffee).  I've also adjusted my grind size  
over time, which has impacted the ease with which the draw down occurs.
I usually grind for my vac pot using a Zass, as I'm too lazy to turn  
the worm drive on my Macap M4 from espresso to vac setting and back.   
When first using the vac pot with a Cory rod, I was getting occasional  
stalls.  I was grinding between drip and press pot, but much closer to  
press.  After considerable experimentation, and contrary to my  
intuition, I have adjusted my grind to be much finer, essentially the  
same as for drip.  I not only have no lock ups now, but the draw down  
time is far improved (from about 2:00 before to 1:15 or so now).
My theory is that the Zass just produces more fines when set to a  
coarser grind.  Whatever the reason, my current method produces  
consistent, delicious results.
When I've used a quality grinder (my Macap or Super Jolly), I've  
gotten great results at any grind setting, so I'm pretty confident on  
my theory, though I do not know why that would be, necessarily  
(shattering the bean, rather than cutting it?).
Anyway, I just drank a pot of '07 crop IMV, and it was delicious.
-AdkMike
On Feb 10, 2009, at 1:36 AM, Michael Dhabolt wrote:
<Snip>
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13) From: Angelo
It sounds to me like there was an inherent weakness in the glass. 
I've seen imploded light bulbs and there was no "circular disk" break 
as you describe. Can you tell us the brand of vacpot, please?
I don't think that there is enough of an advantage to the use of the 
glass rods vs. the chance of a stall. The nonsense of  "coffee only 
touching glass" is a marketing ploy. That would mean that you only 
use glass rods and spoons to stir the coffee. In all the videos I've 
watched where the glass rods were used, a large variety of materials 
were used to stir the coffee. Consistency, my friends, consistency!
If one doesn't want their coffee to interact with the cloth filters, 
one could get the stainless steel filters that are used in the 
Nicro-style pots, or even the (gasp!) plastic filters from Bodum.
Angelo
<Snip>
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14) From: Karl Schendel
Jeff wrote:
<Snip>
I think you have to make allowances for RayO-speak.  :-)
Sure, vacuum is the culprit, but the vacuum just sets up
stresses on the glass.  Those stresses will vary from position
to position, and they'll be highest where a) the glass is
going around a sharp corner, or b) where there's already a
stress in the glass caused by uneven heating or cooling during
manufacture.  If you take a look at a light bulb, you'll notice
that the curves are very smooth except inside the base, where
the glass can be reinforced by the base shell.
As a side note, light bulbs are filled to something under
atmospheric pressure, with argon.  CRT's are under a hard
vacuum because you don't want any gas molecules interfering
with the electron beam.
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15) From: Douglas Hoople
Sorry, Angelo, to sound unkind, and not meaning to start a flame war, but if
you're suggesting that plastic filters can make coffee as clean as ceramic,
glass, or stainless steel, then you don't know what you're actually
suggesting.
The primary difference is in materials that are porous and materials that
are not porous. Cloth is highly porous, and is thus capable of retaining
elements from one brew into and leaching them into the next. The same (to a
much lesser extent) is true of plastic.
However hard, all plastics have some level of porousness. Plastic inevitably
becomes contaminated over time, and, once contaminated, can never really
truly be cleaned and will always leach a little into every brew. Cleaning
agents that are effective in removing coffee contaminants also attack and
pit plastic surfaces. That pitting becomes the porous surface that
eventually compromises any plastic coffee implement.
The cloth filters can be managed through agressive cleaning, as evidenced by
the fact that a lot of very high-quality coffee purveyors use them.
I'd be very surprised, though, to find a respected coffee brewer anywhere
that accepted any direct contact of coffee to plastic elements.
Non-porous materials like glass, ceramic and stainless steel can all be
cleaned well between pots. They will accumulate contaminants over time, but
because they're non-porous, the contaminants can be completely removed with
aggressive cleaning that doesn't damage the surface.
Doug
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Angelo  wrote:
<Snip>
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16) From: Angelo
I use a stainless steel filter. However, I realize that there is the 
possibility of the nickel content leeching into my coffee, but I am 
willing to take the risk.
In my espresso I use either a paper filter (the ones from the 
Aeropress work great ) or circles cut out of thoroughly-washed baby 
wipes. I use these oh TOP of the grounds for easier cleaning.
My point is that I would rather deal with these "tainted" materials 
then to deal with glass rods... The only stall I've ever had was with 
a glass rod. I don't wish to experience that again...
Angelo
<Snip>
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17) From: Bob Glasscock
I believe I'm getting in on this thread late, but would like to offer an
alternate scenario. I have been following this topic because I have an 8-cup
Yama and have experienced stalls, though not lately. I did have a problem
with the bottom pot that could have led to a similar problem. It seems my
globe had developed a stress crack at the neck, due, I believe, to swishing
the pot to clean it after brewing. That is, holding it by the handle and
swirling water around. Since then I have purchased a brush from the Chemex
people and use that to gently scrub the pot. When I swish it, I hold it by
the globe, not the handle. That sort of crack could conceivably have caused
the pot to fail. Just a thought. - Bob Glasscock

18) From: Douglas Hoople
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the input.
Just a quick review of what's known.
The failure was not at the neck, and there was no reason to believe that any
undue stresses had been induced through handling. The pot was fairly new,
non more than a month or two old.
In the two stalls immediately prior to the fatal stall, the glass rod was
locked so tightly by the vacuum that no amount of "jiggling" could free it.
It took a substantial amount of force to unlock the rod once I emptied the
funnel to get my hand on the rod.
The point of cracking was at the bottom of the pot, in a nearly perfect
circle at the "fold" from the flat bottom to the curve of the sides.
This particular type of "hard stall" has been confirmed by other members of
this list, as has the curiosity of the nearly perfect circle.
I've had private input indicating that the Cona rod might not be ideal for
the 5-cup Yama. The textured bottom is smoother than either the Cory or the
Corning rods, and the flatter contour might be mating along a greater
surface area.
There's no question in my mind that it was the force of the vacuum that
caused the pot to break.
Thanks, though, for your input. It's all part of the conversation!
Doug
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Bob Glasscock wrote:
<Snip>
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19) From: Douglas Hoople
Hi Angelo,
I tend to see red when plastics are entered into the mix. I have no problem
with stainless steel. And cloth is apparently washable enough to avoid the
worst of the tainting.
Plastic is a different story. After your first pot from a plastic filter,
you can never clean it properley, and it's all downhill after that.
I can see, especially with the problem of stalling, why you'd want to avoid
the glass rod and opt for the compromises.
I'm willing to keep trying with the glass, even giving the stalling hazard.
After this weekend, I've got at least three new tricks I can try (better
grind control, different rod, re-heating in case of stall). So I expect
that, even if I lose a brew or two, I probably won't lose the pot again.
Thanks.
Doug
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 9:33 AM, Angelo  wrote:
<Snip>
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20) From: Bob Glasscock
Hey Doug and all,
I had a problem with the Cona rod on my 8-pot. You're right, the Cona rod is
smoother, but it is also lighter than the Cory by nearly 1 oz. My problem
was that the water going north almost jettisoned the Cona rod out of the
top, probably due to too much heat. I am tending to agree that outside of
investing in a Cory rod for the 5-pot the cloth filter would be an excellent
option. One day I will try again with the Cona rod. -Bob Glasscock

21) From: Karl Schendel
Doug wrote:
<Snip>
So far, so good...
<Snip>
Captain Pedantic couldn't let this one slide.  He sez,
we tend to use the word "plastic" to mean polyethylene,
or maybe polycarbonate, or maybe a nylon.  There are
many, many, many other types of plastic and some of them
have some pretty interesting properties, including NOT
being porous.  In fact, most of the ordinary plastics
are not porous at all, in the usual sense of the word.
What you can get is adsorption on the surface of the
organic polymer that makes up the plastic.  If it's
something like a low density polyethylene, you can
get some migration into the material, which is what
Doug is describing.  The Cap'n defies you to demonstrate
any such effect on, say, a good fluoro-polymer with a
suitably smooth surface.
Now, as much as the Captain would hate to admit it,
the last time he did any plastics research was one
hell of a long time ago!  (and then, it was for fun.)
I think he would have to defer to anyone who does
that sort of stuff for a living, if they said different.
For myself, I think it's a little bit like
high end audio tweaking -- if you can hear it,
or taste it, it's real enough;  but it's very
possible that other won't be able to tell any
difference.
Anyway!  After following this discussion, I'm going
to have to go out and get myself a vac-pot just
to play with!  Yay, more coffee goodies...
Karl
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22) From: Douglas Hoople
OK, OK, OK... Uncle! I give!
The kind of plastics I'm talking about are the kind that are used in
coffee-making equipment.
There may be some plastics on the planet that don't suffer the degradation
described herein. I'd be surprised to find that manufacturers of
coffee-making equipment are using them, though.
I don't know of any coffee-making plastics that don't degrade and retain
contaminants. And fairly quickly, too.
Anyone know of new weapons-grade plastic coffeemaking equipment that's
impervious?
Personally, I can taste the kind of contamination that comes to all the
coffee-making plastics I've ever spent any time with. It's not the stuff of
audiophile nit-picking. It's stuff that any decent mid-fidelity audio setup
(carrying the submitted metaphor here) has no trouble reproducing.
Maybe there's a new generation of plastics, though. I've observed a ban on
coffee-making plastics for a very long time, so my information might be out
of date. I'd be more than happy to update my understandings with current
information from an authoritative source!
Doug
On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 3:15 PM, Karl Schendel  wrote:
<Snip>
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23) From: Frank Parth
Thinking about it, the only plastic that comes into contact with my coffee in the brewing process is in the Aeropress 
Iuse occasionally. It certainly doesn't seem to absorb (or adsorb) any particular flavors.
Frank
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24) From:
Angelo...how do you use paper filters  in an espresso machine.? Wouldn't that significantly impair the flow?
Dean De Crisce
Sent from a Treo phone

25) From: Douglas Hoople
Adding one more observation about plastic, and then I'll let it pass...
With your plastic coffee equipment, what's your comfort level with
aggressive cleaning agents (bleach, acids, etc.)?
The really harsh agents that are typically used in cleaning glass, stainless
and ceramic will, over time, pit the surface of any plastics I've ever seen
used for coffeemaking. It's that surface pitting that helps to retain
contaminants and causes deterioration ultimately.
I've now said my piece and exhausted my entire store of knowledge about
plastics relative to coffee. Any more discussion on this topic should
probably be in another thread. This has gotten OT, and I apologize.
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26) From: Bob Glasscock
No plastic (except the handle) on my Yama, but I have noticed there appears
to be some chafing in the top part of the Yama in the seat where the Cory
rod sits. There is also some etching apparent in the tube at the point where
the rod ends. Thinking it might be calcium I cleaned pretty thoroughly with
soft brushes. This has nothing to do with implosion but does indicate that
the points at which the Cory rod and the Yama come into contact have the
potential for wear.

27) From: Rich
If you think its calcium or other mineral deposits try a dunk into CLR 
and if it goes away its calcium/mineral deposit and if not its abrasion. 
  Abrasion would be interesting as i have a Cory that is very old and 
its in perfect condition, not a scratch.
Bob Glasscock wrote:
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28) From: Michael Dhabolt
If the conversation has reached the cleaning your bottom glass globe
on a vacuum brewer.
<Snip>
I like the old truck stop waitress's method,  Throw several heaping
tablespoons of salt in the thing and a handfull of ice cubes -
commence twirling the ice cubes round and round (hold the neck of the
glass - not the handle on the more tender brewers).  Cleans it up
lickity split.
And, Yes .... I am old enough to remember when the local truck stop
used vacuum brewers for all their coffee brewing - I can remember
thinking there was obviously magic involved - could have been the
beginning of my obsession.
Mike (just plain)
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29) From: Douglas Hoople
Well, the crisis is now officially over. Waiting for me when I got home was
a box from SM with my replacement Yama 5-cup
Made my morning coffee with it, and I feel like my equilibrium is restored!
No stall on two pots. I'm watching really carefully, am neurotic as the
vacuum reverses, but nothing yet to be neurotic about.
Thanks, everyone, for all the great feedback! I've enjoyed this thread.
Doug
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30) From: Angelo
Boum makes a brush especially for vacpot cleaning. I believe it comes 
in the extra kit that comes with the "premium" model. It (the kit) 
also contains a stand so that you can serve it at the table...
At 04:04 PM 2/11/2009, you wrote:
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31) From: Angelo
Dean,
They don't seem to.. I place the filter on TOP of the grounds so that 
I don't get grounds shooting into the shower head. If you look up, 
"semi,-hemi,-demi pods" in the archives and/or Google Groups 
(alt.coffee) you'll see many messages concerning them...
Angelo
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32) From: Bob Glasscock
Use it in good health, Doug! -Bob Glasscock

33) From:
That's right! I didn't think about it..pods use paper, obviously, in an espresso machine.
Dean De Crisce
Sent from a Treo phone


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