HomeRoast Digest


Topic: How sweet it is (29 msgs / 1100 lines)
1) From: Douglas Hoople
Hi All,
Forgive me if this has already been discussed. I was hoping to get a handle
on managing roasting profiles to max out or manipulate sweetness. I'm
roasting iR2 and HG/DB, so advice for those types of roasting is
particularly on-topic.
I posted earlier in the week that, in banging the corners to shake out of a
slump, I stumbled onto a shaft of sweetness in the Sulawesi Toraja
Sapan-Minanga that was startling in its depth and clarity.
But that disappeared, and now I'm having a hard time trying to find any
sweetness at all in the same bean. I know it's there, and would love any
suggestions for bringing it out.
I noticed, for example, that 'baking' a roast (in this case, a really long
slow initial ramp on the iR2) flattens all sorts of qualities, sweetness
among them. Going really short seems to retain more sweetness, but it also
adds a brightness that seems to conflict. I've tried a couple of middle
grounds (pardon the pun!), but have come up fairly flat.
Any ideas about what kind of initial ramp, stretching or compressing of the
interval between the cracks, degree of roast, or any other insight into
highlighting the sweetness of a bean. For example, is sweetness better
represented with more or less caramelization of the sugar? Are there certain
acids that need to be neutralized (trigonelline, for example) by going
longer?
This should be of general interest anyway, as this is what Tom is
highlighting in his next "roasted pairing" on March 11.
Thanks.
Doug
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2) From: Skydragon454
Great question Doug! I also roast using a HG/DB method. Unfortunately I  cant 
help answer your question but I will be glued to the replies.
 
In a message dated 2/27/2009 4:44:08 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
doughoople writes:
Hi  All,
Forgive me if this has already been discussed. I was hoping to get  a handle
on managing roasting profiles to max out or manipulate sweetness.  I'm
roasting iR2 and HG/DB, so advice for those types of roasting  is
particularly on-topic.
I posted earlier in the week that, in  banging the corners to shake out of a
slump, I stumbled onto a shaft of  sweetness in the Sulawesi Toraja
Sapan-Minanga that was startling in its  depth and clarity.
But that disappeared, and now I'm having a hard time  trying to find any
sweetness at all in the same bean. I know it's there,  and would love any
suggestions for bringing it out.
I noticed, for  example, that 'baking' a roast (in this case, a really long
slow initial  ramp on the iR2) flattens all sorts of qualities, sweetness
among them.  Going really short seems to retain more sweetness, but it also
adds a  brightness that seems to conflict. I've tried a couple of middle
grounds  (pardon the pun!), but have come up fairly flat.
Any ideas about what  kind of initial ramp, stretching or compressing of the
interval between the  cracks, degree of roast, or any other insight into
highlighting the  sweetness of a bean. For example, is sweetness better
represented with more  or less caramelization of the sugar? Are there certain
acids that need to  be neutralized (trigonelline, for example) by going
longer?
This  should be of general interest anyway, as this is what Tom is
highlighting  in his next "roasted pairing" on March  11.
Thanks.
Doug
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3) From: miKe mcKoffee
The answer is here: http://www.sweetmarias.com/roast.carlstaub.htmlNow digesting, regurgitating, redigesting over and over and understanding is
a whole 'nother matter and takes time. LOTS of time, a LIFE Time!!!
For me at my stage in my Roasting Journey for Sulawesi I'd first target 300f
bean mass temp ~5:30, 400f ~11, EOR (end of roast) ~15sec into 2nd at ~15
(~4min from start of 1st to EOR). This requires being able to slow the ramp
(rate of bean temp increase) by decreasing environmental temp approaching
1st then slower linear ramp through 1st to EOR. Then adjust profile from
there based on results. Maybe a little longer time start of 1st to EOR,
doubtful slower for Sulawesi but never know for a given Lot, maybe a bit
further into 2nd, maybe less or even just tickling 2nd, maybe a bit faster
or bit slower 300f to start of 1st etc. 
Generally speaking I believe compressing start of 1st to EOR tends to kill
sweetness. But going too slow can also flatten as does going too slow
through tanning (after drying/~300f to start of 1st). 
Going on a scant nine years roasting, all but the first year controlled temp
monitored profile roasting, a few tons worth of greens the past year and a
half and the more I type the more I know I don't know...
Enjoy The Journey!
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.NorwestCoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
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4) From: Douglas Hoople
"The answer is here: http://www.sweetmarias.com/roast.carlstaub.htmlNow digesting, regurgitating, redigesting over and over and understanding is
a whole 'nother matter and takes time. LOTS of time, a LIFE Time!!!"
Amen, MiKe. I've looked over that link, and some of the questions I'm asking
are formulated from my as-yet incomplete understanding of its contents (I
mean, where on earth else would I find the word "trigonelline"??).  I still
haven't been able to tie the information in it to anything concrete in my
profiles yet, but will keep reading and digesting if you think it's worth
the effort.
Interesting your observation about "tanning" being distinct from just
warming the beans up. I think I may be over-tanning (spending too much time
between 350f & 400f, instead of sub-350). Your roaster gives you the
capability of laying that low. I'm not sure I get that level of control on
the iR2, where the minimum is 320f and it doesn't seem to be able to really
maintain temps that low anyway (they seem to hit 350f or so no matter what).
The 11-minute ramp to 400f is fatal on the iR2, or at least has been on my
attempts so far. A total guarantee of baking and flavor flattening, so your
subdivision of the initial ramp must be significant. It could be that ramp
is intrinsically slower in drum roasters (as Tom points out on the website),
and that your initial 5 minutes at sub-300f is quite significant in
preventing the too-soon onset of the big chemical changes.
Finally, I've asked the question before, but it was buried deep in a post.
Is there a way to judge "stalling" after first crack? Is it hard to stall a
roast? Do you have to work hard at it and really screw things up? Or is it a
delicate thing, and easy to stumble into?
For example, I'm trying to get control over the iR2 after first crack. I was
rolling nicely in first crack at 415f and entered a cooler stage that
dropped the temps to around 405f for two minutes. It made me neurotic to see
the numbers drop, but I had no idea whether it was a good thing or a bad
thing, and, if a bad thing, how bad. After two minutes, the temps rose again
and I finished at around 445f. Nice enough roast, but a little flat and
disappointing.
I'm trying to figure out what part of the roast was responsible for the
flattening, how to divine more information about the initial ramp, and just
exactly (or approximately) when stalling kicks in.
Finally, MiKe, I fully understand that absolute precision is out of reach,
and hyperspecification is probably a fool's game. But taking random potshots
in the dark is more foolish still. So the search for knowledge continues!
I AM enjoying the journey. Thanks for the feedback!
Doug
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5) From: Douglas Hoople
Aha! I've gone and tweaked my iR2 profile to limit the temperature sag
between 1st and 2nd crack. That seems to have restored the sweetness and
limited the flatness that was in the past few roasts. I'll have to play with
it some more, but it would seem that letting the temp drop 10 degrees during
a 1st-to-2nd crack stretch is enough to produce stalling. This time, the
temp hit 415f and essentially stayed there for the the 2-minute stretch
stage. The difference is like night and day.
Doug
On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Douglas Hoople wrote:
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6) From: miKe mcKoffee
FWIW the preponderance of my roasting experience and profile development
work and understanding came right here Caffe' Rosto roasting since early
'01. Almost immediately adding bean mass temp monitoring and bit later split
wired dual variable voltage controlled roasting since '02. During those days
there were a number us roasting similarly be it modd'ed Rosto's, FR's or
popcorn poppers sharing profiles etc. But, and it's a big but, the profile
sharing was meaningful because of bean temp monitoring and calibrating.
Then rumor of an automatic profile controlled air roaster came and we got
excited. Until researching what the soon coming I-Roast feature set was to
be. IMO hugely stupid design and misleading and bad for the coffee home
roasting community. No bean mass monitoring and primarily attempting to
control heat ramp by fan, what's with that! Repeatability, fogetaboutit.
Consistency between units, no way Jose'! Anyone with a $10 popcorn popper
split wired and a variac has better roast control than an I-RunawayRoast.
I-Rant off:-)
Ok, now Air versus Drum. Many discussions here about the difference in the
past. The biggest difference is there isn't necessarily a big difference,
talking apples, oranges, pears, tangerines and cumquats! Generally speaking
air roasting may dry the beans faster and hence profiles usually a minute or
three shorter. Then again electric heat dries the beans more than gas heat
too. As far as I know most newer design drum roasters are primarily
convective roasts (with good variable air flow as well as variable heat),
the drum a means of effective bean movement without excessive drying. Some
drum roasters better than others. Too slow a drum and indeed conductive
becomes a factor, sometimes a bad tipping factor and/or poor convection from
lack of movement. 
None the less whether "Air" or "Drum" too fast through tanning can lead to
grassy, too slow through drying cardboardy, too slow tanning through
browning flat and lifeless, too fast tanning through browning astringent
and/or bitter, too fast 1st through EOR lacking complexity and sweetness,
too slow 1st through EOR another baking/flattener. One heck of a juggling
act!
Hell I don't have a clue. All I know is just finished a nice satisfying 2
hour 7 batch 56LB session and I do LOVE this USRC "3k" 8 pounder work horse!
Seven 8 pound batches in 2 hours not too shabby. (Not counting 'bout 15
minute pre-heat and 10 minute cool down) Sweet simultaneously cooling a
batch while roasting the next. Which of course was one of my design
requirements when had it built...hence has fan motor double the HP normal 3k
rating.
FWIW generally speaking run my USRC 3k roasts from 13 to 18 minutes compared
to (profile controlled) Rosto Roasting 10 to 15 minutes.
Temps, environment temps can drop and not be a bad thing as long as bean
temp continues to rise. Not saying can with an I-Roast though, don't know!
Maybe one of these days I'll have the time to find out. (Have a used IR1
that was given to me, never roasted with it yet.) FWIW I do in fact drop
environment temp approaching 1st USRC roasting, but never let bean mass temp
stop rising just slow it's rise. Basically decreasing the delta between
environment and bean mass temps, even taking the environment temp delta
negative but not too negative, I've learned my USRC stall point is ~15f
negative delta. OTOH I don't rightly know if I ever actually dropped
environmental temps Rosto roasting because I only monitored bean mass temp.
I did use similar profile techniques Rosto roasting. Hmmm, two minute
environment drop does seem overly long in air roaster. I suspect much actual
Stock IR monitored temp drop may be detrimental. 
I ramble and have beans to bag, gotta go!
Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.NorwestCoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
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found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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7) From: Bill
Nice thread, guys.  Excellent to read a discussion of roasting!!!
Yeah, Doug, I've never used an IRoast, but I think that dropping the ET 10F
for 2 minutes would stall a roast.  So your last post looked pretty
positive...seems like you figured a few things out.
If you like that, what I would do is use that as a baseline.  Roast that
batch with that profile, then do another.  Perhaps you want to cool the
iroast down, I don't know.  then you can brew the 2 coffees and see which
you prefer...
and I liked your rant, miKe, about the consumer roasting machines.
 Certainly made me laugh.
Keep us posted on your roasts, Doug.
bill in wyo
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8) From: Michael Dhabolt
Doug,
IMHO the link to the info on Sweet Marias is important academic
information that leads us to an appreciation of the complexity of the
chemical processes that get us to where we want to go (great quality
roasts).  Manipulating the machinery is another story entirely. miKe
has, in my opinion, has identified the necessary focus of that
manipulation in as simple a fashion as is possible.  Basically, the
three stages he identified in his post - - pre 300 F, - - 300 F to
just before 1st crack begins, - - from that point to the EOR.  The
variable within those three (actually the last two) stages is heat-up
rate or in other words the temperature change per unit time ( F /
minute).
Again, IMHO, real control of the process pre-supposes the ability to
measure the criteria.  The commonality is consistent, accurate bean
temperature measurement.  Anything less requires roasting, changing
something, roasting again and comparing the results, then trying to
identify what the changes have accomplished.  Unfortunately, without
absolute control of heat input and air flow in an air roast
environment the comparison of different roasts may or may not lead you
to the ability to replicate the positive results of different changes
because you may not be able to identify what those changes actually
were.
In my opinion, a casual review of the archives of this list will
support the fact that figuring out a way of implementing bean
temperature indication is the paramount step toward becoming
accomplished at roasting for particular results such as maximizing the
sweetness of the roast.
Mike (just plain)
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9) From: Joseph Robertson
Nice Synopsis and interpretation Mike. You and miKe and many other
long time SM listers are a great service to this list and the growing
number of folks delving into the home roast world.
JoeR
On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 8:59 AM, Michael Dhabolt
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10) From: Douglas Hoople
Hi Mike,
Thanks for amplifying what MiKe has written so far.
One thing you write puzzles me, and I'm wondering if I'm missing something.
"In my opinion, a casual review of the archives of this list will support
the fact that figuring out a way of implementing bean temperature indication
is the paramount step toward becoming ccomplished at roasting for particular
results such as maximizing the sweeness of the roast"
I've written that I'm getting my temperatures not from the iR2 onboard
thermometer, but from a thermocouple placed in the bean mass, as pictured in
the writeup on the SM website.
Are there other, more illuminating methods of getting temperature readings
out of the bean mass?
Thanks.
Doug
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11) From: miKe mcKoffee
Mike (just plain), =
Agree with your agreement almost 100%. With the caveat years ago discovered
can be just as important to control stage one (drying, up to bean mass 225f
or 300f including tanning) as the other stages. Had a bean that kept being
"grassy" at City no matter what I did with stage two or three. Was hitting
300f about 4min, extended to 4:30 and grassiness almost gone, extended to 5
and Bingo!
FWIW I used to break roasting up into four stages: drying stage charge up to
225f, tanning stage 225-300f. browning 300f to start of 1st ~400f, finish
stage start of 1st to EOR. Manipulating lower temp was for differing bean
moisture contents prior to tanning. This 'seemed' to be more important Air
roasting than Drum roasting. Not to mention Rosto Air roasting could change
a 'ramp rate' virtually 'on a dime' while drum roasting is more
anticipatory/gradual.
Agree 100% bean mass temp monitoring is Paramount and not being included ANY
off the shelf consumer roasters is a travesty. A simple bi-metal analog
thermometer with good resolution in the bean mass is the best, simplest,
cheapest roaster modification a person can make. Go thermocouple and even
better.
Slave to the Bean Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.NorwestCoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Pacific Northwest Gathering VIIhttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/=">http://home.comcast.net/~mckona/PNWGVII.htmSweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/=
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12) From: Douglas Hoople
Looks like the next step, if continuing with the iR2, should be trying to
take control of the three early phases before 1st crack.
As already mentioned, on an unmodified iR2 at reasonable ambient
temperatures, with the programmed setting at the minimum 320f, the bean mass
temps climb really quickly, and the temp arrives at 350+ within two or three
minutes of the start, and the temps are already on the door of 1st crack by
the 5-minute mark.
So, without variacs and variable-speed fans, there's very little to be done
on the iR2. The longtimers here who do seem happy with their results are
happy precisely because they've committed to such mods.
Let me stop here for a moment, and say that the iR2 never claimed to be a
professional quality roaster, and it's not a particularly expensive device.
While there's probably room for a higher-end air roaster that provides bean
mass temp and refined onboard control over heat and fan speed, the iR2 folks
have never pretended that their machine is that.
I'm happy enough to have started out with an iR2. I probably wouldn't have
gotten started homeroasting without the iR2 sitting there in a convenient
package and bearable price point.
It took me half a year to start trying to control things at a level that is
out of reach on that device. I've also done the calculation about cost per
pound. I've roasted roughly 40 pounds of coffee, and at a conservative
savings of $5 per pound for buying greens (the real number is higher), I'd
have to say that the iR2 has just recently paid for itself.
So while I'm now fairly frustrated by the limitations of the stock,
unmodified iR2, (even with the thermocouple mod), I'd have to say that it's
been a good starting investment for me.
So the next step is to 1) build some of the mods, or 2) walk up to the cost
of a quality roaster that provides the level of control recommended here.
I've kind of set my eye on a HotTop. If that's the case, then I'll still
be stuck for a few months trying to outwit the iR2, while saving my sheckles
and trying to pluck up the courage to tell my wife.
Thanks again, everyone, for all the illuminating feedback!
Doug
On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 9:34 AM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
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13) From: Dhananjaya
Great info, miKe - please do ramble!
DJ

14) From: Michael Dhabolt
Doug,
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember seeing some posts from folks on
this list who have figured out a way of using some kind of
thermocouple (TC) probe on the IR2 for temperature indication.
Hopefully this thread will result in some comments from those that
have.
Tom sells an in-expensive TC thermometer and TC on the site.
I am not familiar with the internals of the IR2, but it seems that
splitting the fan from the heat and developing some control over each
should be a do-able project.  It can't be any more difficult than
accomplishing those mods on a P2 style popper.  Discounting the
installed roaster controls and ending up with a 'mad scientist'
looking lash-up would probably be a given, if you decide to move in
that direction.  The impetus for those modifications is: being able to
produce roasts at a quality level that is un-attainable with almost
all of the other consumer level roasters.
As miKe commented: once you have real control, things start to get
interesting and the level within which you can control what you are
doing is really surprising.  IOW the three stage simplification can be
taken in a lot of different directions.
Mike (just plain)
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15) From: Douglas Hoople
Hi Mike,
As indicated earlier in the thread, I've had the thermocouple mod on my iR2
for the past two months, so all the comments I've logged in this thread have
been with a thermocouple placed in the bean mass.
I think I must have not indicated this clearly enough, because you're the
second respondent to suggest to me that I should get a method of measuring
bean mass temp.
But I've had it all along.
Thanks.
Doug
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16) From: miKe mcKoffee
Doug,
The problem is you say the temp hit "415f and essentially stayed there..."
not specifying other that stock IR temp indicator. IF you're monitoring bean
mass, what does bean mass temp do? 
IF you're earlier post of "was at 415f then dropped temp to 405f for two
minutes" was referring to bean mass temp, yeah that would highly likely
flatten it big time. 
Very important when mentioning temps to clarify what temp!  Duh, the
obvious.
miKe
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17) From: Douglas Hoople
Hi MiKe,
I thought when I read your earlier post that I must not have it clear, but I
let it pass at the time because you posted so much other useful information,
and I was able to glean the information I looking for from your response.
I posted the clarification when Mike (just plain) also came up with the same
puzzlement.
Can't have MiKe and Mike (just plain) misunderstanding your posts. No way.
Not on the SM homroasters list!!!
Anyway, thanks for stating in plain English that a drop in the bean mass
temp from 415f to 405f is positive id, smoking gun on a stall. That's VERY
useful information, as I haven't been able to find anything other than
general advice like "don't let it stall" in most of the literature I've read
so far. Exceptionally nice to have some real parameters to judge by!
I may still be spinning out of control, but now with one less blind spot!
Excellent. I hope everyone's Monday morning cup has been satisfying!
Doug
On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 11:43 AM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
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18) From: Allon Stern
On Mar 2, 2009, at 12:56 PM, Douglas Hoople wrote:
<Snip>
My iRoast is stock, but I do run with a thermocouple and a variable  
speed vent fan hooked up to dryer vent hose, which gives a surprising  
degree of control over the speed of roasting. Not total control, and  
I use the profiles on the iRoast as a coarse adjustment, but I'm  
really able to get a large difference using the fan to slow the ramp.
-
allon
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19) From: Allon Stern
On Mar 2, 2009, at 1:58 PM, Michael Dhabolt wrote:
<Snip>http://www.radioactive.org/iRoast2%20Teardown/Photos.htmlthe IR2 has a microcontroller that drives the heaters and the fan.
The fan is run through an SCR, allowing for variable speed, though  
the iRoast only seems to use a couple of steps.
There are two heater coils, one which is 900W and the other is 480W.  
They are switched by relays.
See:http://www.radioactive.org/iRoast2%20Teardown/Photos_files/DSC_0106.jpgI should add pictures of the insides of the heater, which I opened at  
a later date. The 480W element on this one has a bad/corroded lug. (I  
measured the resistances of the wires to determine the wattage)
I should really get cracking on my mad scientist projects.
-
allon
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20) From: miKe mcKoffee
Great idea, working the external variable fan to suck excess heat out as
needed overlaid the onboard profiles.
miKe 
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21) From: Allon Stern
On Mar 2, 2009, at 2:43 PM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>
I find that my roasts often get up to arond 415, then hang out around  
there briefly before rising further.
Be aware that there are "thermal bumps".
Note figure 9:http://www.google.com/patents?vidPAT3964175-
allon
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22) From: Chad Sheridan
I've started to see that recently as well--usually around 411-415F or =
so on the Hottop.  Eyes are glued to ET the whole time, to make sure =
it's steady.  Lost a roast recently where I started coasting too much, =
and I wasn't glued to the temperature monitors.  ET dropped, then bean =
temp dropped 5 degrees quickly--with the electric heater in the hottop, =
it took me 30-40 seconds to get things moving again.  We'll see how it =
cups out.
--chad
Allon Stern wrote:
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
ee.com =
<Snip>
<Snip>
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23) From: Michael Dhabolt
Doug,
Douglas Hoople  wrote:
<Snip>
Oops!  My bad.
Allon's outboard variable speed vent fan sure sounds like a relatively
non-invasive nifti idea.
Mike (just plain)
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24) From: Douglas Hoople
Thanks for the link, Allon! Very entertaining reading! Pyrolitic bumps at
400, indeed!
I think I'll print the whole thing off for bedtime reading tonight. Having
co-authored two patents myself in the past, I'm amazed at how readable this
application is!
It was your arrangement, Allon, that I was primarily thinking of when
discussing the iR2 mods that I was aware of. Maybe I'll dig through some of
your posts and see what I can rig up. Much easier in the short haul than
convincing my wife that I need (not want, NEED!) that cost of a HotTop.
I guess I was trying to avoid the mad inventor (or, in this case, mad
tinkerer, Allon being the inventor) route. The locals have me as a muttering
loon already. Imagine if I start wandering the premises carrying dryer hose
sculptures!
Hmmm... decisions, decisions!
Doug
On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Allon Stern  wrote:
<Snip>
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25) From: Douglas Hoople
Just a quick update. I've gone and taken the next step. I'm now the proud
owner of an indoor iR2 Frankenduct sculpture. I've slavishly followed
Allon's setup, pretty much down to the last drop. Muffin fan tied to a
variable voltage DC power supply (0-32 volts) mounted onto a board in the
window, dryer duct to the iR2, potholders to reposition the duct mid-roast.
It's jury rigged for now, but I'll be on the lookout for a can of Joya
Tahini on my next trip to the Berkeley Bowl (yes, I know, that's getting
ridiculously slavish... I may opt for a can of nuts instead :-) ) to make
the board mount permanent.
I've also relocated the thermocouple, snaking it through a hole drilled in
the plastic base of the roasting pot, duct-taped along the bottom of the
metal tray and through a hole drilled into the metal tray. It's positioned
midway between column and wall, and is about a half-inch in the air. So now,
it's pretty thoroughly immobilized, and should be getting very consistent
bean mass readings from now on.
Took this thing for a test drive, and it's clear I don't know how to pilot
it yet. The iR2 still comes up the curve pretty fast, so I may need to
figure out a way to attenuate the heat for the initial stage. And I haven't
worked out how to finesse the variable-speed of the fan, but it's clear that
rough changes do have an effect.
Let's see if I can tame the iR2 beast with these changes. Already, I can
tell that I have a little more control over the sag that comes from trying
to stretch after 1st crack. I was able to altogether prevent the temps from
dropping at the stretch transition, and it's clear that my roasts are better
as a result.
Thanks, again, Allon, for all the tips on setting up the iR2. Now to see if
I can learn how to make it work.
I am on the lookout long term for a HotTop, but will be messing with the iR2
and HG/DB in the meantime.
Doug
On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Douglas Hoople  wrote:
<Snip>
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26) From: Kris Bhatti
I've got a nearly empty Joyva can in the fridge right now.  Send me your address and I'll mail it to you.  I need to make some hummus anyway and get it used up!
Kris
From: Douglas Hoople 
To: homeroast
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2009 1:52:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] How sweet it is
Just a quick update. I've gone and taken the next step. I'm now the proud
owner of an indoor iR2 Frankenduct sculpture. I've slavishly followed
Allon's setup, pretty much down to the last drop. Muffin fan tied to a
variable voltage DC power supply (0-32 volts) mounted onto a board in the
window, dryer duct to the iR2, potholders to reposition the duct mid-roast.
It's jury rigged for now, but I'll be on the lookout for a can of Joya
Tahini on my next trip to the Berkeley Bowl (yes, I know, that's getting
ridiculously slavish... I may opt for a can of nuts instead :-) ) to make
the board mount permanent.
I've also relocated the thermocouple, snaking it through a hole drilled in
the plastic base of the roasting pot, duct-taped along the bottom of the
metal tray and through a hole drilled into the metal tray. It's positioned
midway between column and wall, and is about a half-inch in the air. So now,
it's pretty thoroughly immobilized, and should be getting very consistent
bean mass readings from now on.
Took this thing for a test drive, and it's clear I don't know how to pilot
it yet. The iR2 still comes up the curve pretty fast, so I may need to
figure out a way to attenuate the heat for the initial stage. And I haven't
worked out how to finesse the variable-speed of the fan, but it's clear that
rough changes do have an effect.
Let's see if I can tame the iR2 beast with these changes. Already, I can
tell that I have a little more control over the sag that comes from trying
to stretch after 1st crack. I was able to altogether prevent the temps from
dropping at the stretch transition, and it's clear that my roasts are better
as a result.
Thanks, again, Allon, for all the tips on setting up the iR2. Now to see if
I can learn how to make it work.
I am on the lookout long term for a HotTop, but will be messing with the iR2
and HG/DB in the meantime.
Doug
On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Douglas Hoople  wrote:
<Snip>
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27) From: Douglas Hoople
Hi Kris,
That would be gilding the lily, wouldn't it?
I really appreciate the offer, Kris, but that won't be necessary. I think I
was just having a bit of fun about Allon's tahini can. We get stuff in
4-inch cans all the time. I've got a big can of tomatoes that I'll be
opening up this evening for pasta, and I'll use that.
Or do you think that a tomato can might add acidic taints to my roasts :-)
Thanks for the offer, though, Kris!
Hope your roasts are all turning out well!
Doug
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Kris Bhatti  wrote:
<Snip>
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28) From: Allon Stern
On Mar 5, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Douglas Hoople wrote:
<Snip>
*gosh* I just don't know what to say. *blush*
<Snip>
Here's a profile I use often:
	320 degrees for 3 minutes - iRoast fan on high
	375 degrees for 2 minutes - iRoast fan on high
	395 degrees for 1.5 minutes - iRoast fan cuts to low
	375 degrees for 8.5 minutes - iRoast fan goes back to high
I generally start with the fan on at 6V, which is the lowest voltage  
that it will spin.
Then, after around 2-3 minutes, I start SLOWLY ramping the speed of  
the fan. I can keep an eye on time remaining and on the voltage, to  
aim for max speed (24V) at the end of the first 5 minutes; my target  
temperature is 350 degrees on the thermocouple.
Then, when it hits stage 3 of the program, the iRoast fan drops. I  
drop my fan to, back to 6V. Depending on ambient temperatures, I may  
leave it at 6V to allow the roast to progress, or slowly ramp the  
external fan to slow the climb. I aim for around 400 or so for the  
end of stage 3. If I hit it too fast, since it is stage 3, I can use  
the down-arrow on the iRoast to cut that stage short. Can't lengthen  
it, though (I have another profile programmed with 7.5 minutes on the  
last stage, so I can lengthen stage 3, if needed). When it hits stage  
4, I then drop the fan to 6V again, and ramp it as slowly as I can,  
and try and target 426-430 or so for EOR.
NOTE, that the above profiling is for dry-processed coffees! The  
chaff blocks the screen and builds up more heat in the roaster. If  
you use this profile for a wet processed coffee, you may not have  
enough oomph to get through 1st crack. You might opt for a longer  
stage 3 in that case.
Also note, this is for a cold iRoast. If the iRoast starts modulating  
its own fan speed, and measures higher temps, you may have trouble  
sticking to the profile.
The fan is great for controlling the temperature climb. You cannot  
greatly vary the temperature in any one go, however. It works best if  
you slowly adjust the fan speed over a large time, not if you try to  
make a large course correction, because it won't work. If you slow  
the rate of temperature increase, then the roast becomes more  
controllable. I guess without the fan, you'd have a stairstep pattern  
of heat applied; the fan lets you apply a more logarithmic curve, and  
approach the target temperature with a small dtemp/dtime.
I'm considering assembling a manual control override for my iRoast so  
I don't have to work around the programmed profiles when I don't want  
to.
<Snip>
I use HG/DB for larger batches, and find that I tend to go darker. If  
I want to bring out outrageous fruit in dry processed coffees, I've  
found I can do it easier with the iRoast as shown above, and not so  
easily with HG/DB.
-
allon
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29) From: Allon Stern
On Mar 5, 2009, at 5:44 PM, Kris Bhatti wrote:
<Snip>
I hope you have plenty of garlic :)
-
allon
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