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Topic: Report: Mazzer Mini Vs Cimbali Max Hybrid (25 msgs / 1258 lines)
1) From: Barry Luterman
                                         OBSERVATIONS   MAZZER MINI VS
CIMBALI MAX HYBRID
I was aware of Les’s observation of beans hanging up under the hopper of =
the
Cimbali Max Hybrid (CMH). See:  www.thortamper.com/cimbali.html   In
addition, after placing the CMH on my kitchen counter I noticed that with
the hopper in place the unit was too tall for me to open the cabinet doors.
See:  http://barryssite001.shutterfly.com/ Photo 1.  I removed the hopper
and tried to modify a canning funnel to fit in the throat of the grinder. I
hoped to alleviate the two problems.  Unfortunately, I could not bend the
rim of the canning funnel enough to fit easily into the throat of the
grinder. In addition, I noticed that, with the hopper off, the grinder made
an inordinate amount of noise. I placed sealing tape over the channel under
the hopper and replaced the hopper. After dialing in the grinder I removed
the hopper to vacuum out the residual grinds. The tape was still in place
and had effectively blocked the beans from accumulating in the channel. See:
Photo  2.
Next I dialed in the CMH. As a standard I used the grind I got from the
Mazzer Mini (MM) with it set on the manufacturers black arrow marker. It
should be noted that although the MM is 3 years old it is well maintained
and the burrs were recently replaced. There have been less than 20 pounds of
coffee ground on the new burrs. My first grind from the CMH was obtained at
a setting of 2. The resultant grind was as fine as talcum powder. The grind
was finer than that used for Turkish coffee. I was impressed. Eventually, I
worked my way up to a setting of 3.25. At that point the grinds, from both
machines, looked and felt the same. Visual inspection of the grounds
revealed no clumping in either sample.  I then pulled a timed shot from each
machine. Timing began at the flip of the switch and ended when the 1 and one
half ounce shot glass was filled. The shot ground in the CMH took 38 seconds
while the shot from the MM took 41 seconds. I concluded the CMH was
successfully dialed in.
INPUT  VS  OUTPUT
Since both grinders now had residual grinds in them I decided to do the
first test with grinds in the machines un-vacuumed. I ground 20 gr of beans
in each machine. Then I weighed the output of each machine. Both machines
yielded an output of 22 gr. I am hard pressed to explain where the extra 2
gr came from. The results, however, were consistent and equal for each
machine.
Next I thoroughly cleaned both machines. It was at that time I took photo 1.
The MM is an easy straight forward machine to clean with a Shark Vacuum and
small brush. The CMH was much more difficult to clean. The chute on the CMH
has a guard in front of it and blocks the tip of the vacuum cleaner. It is
possible to wiggle a small brush behind the guard and dislodge the grinds
into the hopper. The hopper on the CMH is deeper and narrower than the
hopper on the MM. The architecture of the hopper does not allow the tip of
the shark in to thoroughly clean the old grounds out of the hopper.
Again I placed 20 gr of beans into each machine and ground the beans. In
addition, this time as well as grinding them I timed the duration of the
grind for each machine. The MM with 20 gr of beans in yielded an 18 gr.
output.  The CMH with 20 gr. In yielded a 12 gr. output. Visual inspection
of the hoppers on both machines confirmed this finding. There were
significantly more residual grinds in the hopper of the CMH when compared to
the hopper of the MM. Grind time for the MM was 75 sec. Grind time for the
CMH was 102 sec.
The data suggests that there are many more nooks and crannies for coffee
grounds to hide in the CMH than the MM. The CMH has larger burrs and a
stronger motor than the MM. One would expect the CMH to grind faster than
the MM. However, the CHM is 26% slower than the MM for a 20 gr. load. It
could be that the motor for the CHM is much more geared down than the motor
of the MM. This gearing down might affect the quality of the grounds and the
ultimate taste of the brew.  Another possible explanation is that the beans
in the MM had a weight on them and were force fed into the grinder. The
beans in the CMH were in a hopper and had little downward force exerted upon
them. On to the second part of the comparison taste and grind
characteristics.
                                                          TASTE TEST
After both shots were dialed in and the grinders cleaned a shots of Bali
Blue Krishna Kintamani, roasted a few snaps into second were pulled in a
Brewtus I espresso machine. Photo 3 displays the shot as it was drawn. The
shot was ground in the CMH grinder. Photo 4 displays the shot obtained from
the Hybrid and Photo 5 the shot obtained from the MM.
Shot 1 was pulled from the CMH the second shot was pulled from the MM. The
taste was mind blowing for both shots. I had no idea a grinder could make
such a difference in two identical shots. Each shot was excellent but
uniquely different.
The shot from the MM was intense dark chocolate with rustic overtones. It
had a hint of sweetness and spices. The shot was not complex but rather full
and powerful much like peasant food, black bread, onions and garlic. Don’t
misunderstand me I love peasant food.  I thought the shot could not be
better.
The shot from the CHM was surprisingly different. There was chocolate in the
beginning but nowhere as intense and rustic as the previous shot. Then the
shot opened up to the most exquisite florals and spices imaginable.
Possibly, one of the most complex shots I have tasted. This shot did not
come up and hit you beside the head as comfort food does. Rather, this shot
was more like excellent French cooking. Full of subtle flavors and nuances.
These flavors were present in the MM shot as well but not as well defined.
Each shot was outstanding in its own right. Each shot was different each
accenting different taste components of the bean.
To test for order effects shots were pulled using each grinder. However,
this time the first shot pulled was with grinds from MM. Visual inspection
of the two shots side by side revealed a difference at this session. The
crema on the shot pulled from the CMH was lighter than the crema from the MM
shot and had more volume. Taste of the MM shot was judged excellent and
essentially unchanged from the previous session. The shot from the CMH
grinder was as nuanced as it had been but was a bit creamier and richer than
the previous session.
                                                        BLIND TEST
I pulled two shots as previously described. I placed each shot on a sheet of
paper. On the reverse side of each piece of paper I wrote the name of the
grinder used for the preparation of the shot. I then left the room and had
my wife reposition the glasses but leaving each glass on its respective
paper.  I really did not have to taste either shot when I came back into the
room. Immediately on seeing the crema in each glass I knew which glass
belonged to which grinder. I tasted them and the taste confirmed my
suspicion.  At this point I ended the study. There was no sense to testing
for an order effect.
                                                        FURTHER OBSERVATIONS
AND CONCLUSIONS
There are some design features of the CMH which are less than desirable. The
machine with hopper in place does not fit under kitchen cabinets. Hopper
design allows for beans to get caught under the hopper and hang up. The
grind adjustment for the machine is a small diameter knob. In order to go
from an espresso grind to a drip grind the knob requires quite a bit of
turning and time to get to the required target. Finally it is a difficult
machine to clean. There is a guard in front of the chute and the hopper is
too narrow and deep to get a vacuum cleaner tip into it...
The MM is easy to clean between shots. The canning funnel modification
allows it to fit under the cabinets.  However, Les is working on a
modification for the CMH which may solve the problem. The MM is fast and
easy to change grind settings over a large range. On the other hand there
are some things about the MM design which fall a bit short in comparison.
The motor is far less powerful on the MM and often stops if you try to
change grind without the motor running.  Given this disparity in power
between the two machines might one expect the life expectancy of the MM to
be less than the CMH?  The burrs on the MM are smaller and flat as compared
to the CMH. Does this translate to more frequent burr replacement for the MM
over the CMH? Finally, there is about a $150 price difference between the
machines. The price differential is probably not as important as it seems.
If life expectancy of these machines are 20 years or so the 150 amitorized
over that time is just pennies. Also, if it turns out the CMH does have a
longer life expectancy and fewer burr replacements during its life time then
the bottom line is less for the CMH than the MM.
The final decision for me is to keep the CMH as a dedicated espresso
grinder. The MM will not be sold but will become a dedicated grinder for
Vacuum Pot coffee. I think the shots when ground with the CMH are richer and
have more nuances than those obtained from the MM. By keeping both grinders
I do not have to fiddle with the adjustment wheel on the CMH except for
small daily changes. The motor and burrs will last longer on the MM with
less of a grinding load on it. Hopefully, Les will solve the hopper problem
soon.  Someone will figure a gimmick to clean the machine more easily.
Grounds from both machines were mailed to Just Plain Mike. His report will
hopefully follow.
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2) From: jeff michel
Great report!
After reading I may need to change my burrs. I am grinding at about 1.
A simple way to keep the beens out of the space between the hopper and  =
the top of the grinder
is to cut a small water or juice bottle as a spacer and use as an  =
insert.
I get clumping with mine but I do not use a heater in my house so I  =
probably have more humidity.
Jef
On Mar 1, 2009, at 7:48 PM, Barry Luterman wrote:
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ee.com
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ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
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3) From: John and Emma
Fantastic report Barry. Thanks for the hard work you put in. It is
unfortunate that you had to taste so many great shots for the taste test.
John H.

4) From: Michael Dhabolt
Barry,
Well done!  Waiting on the mail.
Mike (just plain)
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5) From: Michael Dhabolt
Barry,
You're articulate explanation of the highlighted complexity of the
taste brings to mind the results of a weekend road trip to Spokane to
install a new GS3 at a close friends house.  He had been using a high
quality commercial single group HX espresso machine (La Cimbali) for
the last year and a half and had become quite adept at pulling
eminently quaffable shots from it.  Analysis of his technique using
timers and a Scace device supported the fact that his shots were
within the criteria we generally buy into for correct shot pulling
(pre-flush, time and shot temp).
The definition within the taste spectrum of the LM GS3 shots was
astounding when compared to the Cimbali.  Your explanation of changes
in taste between the two grinders was very well presented and directly
relate-able to the difference between the two espresso machines.
Mike (just plain)
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6) From: Les
Great report Barry!  I never have said the Max Hybrid is a perfect
grinder.  However, your taste test confirms my results.  It really
shines for us lever machine nuts.
Les
On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 7:48 PM, Barry Luterman  wrote:
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                   BLIND TEST
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                   FURTHER OBSERVATIONS
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7) From: Brian Kamnetz
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8) From: Seth Grandeau
Barry,
I'd be curious to hear the results of a true "blind" taste test.  By that, I
mean don't even look at the cups before you drink.  That way, your opinion
will not be tainted by knowing which grinder was used for which shot, based
on the crema.  I'm just curious to know which one's taste you prefer in this
way.
As John mentions above, thank you for suffering through all these great
shots, just to get us this report. :)
-Seth
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9) From: Barry Luterman
I did try the blind taste test and it was obvious which one was which from
taste. However, the test was contaminated by the visual clues.
On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Seth Grandeau  wrote:
<Snip>
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10) From: raymanowen
"...the motor for the CHM is much more geared down than the motor of the MM.
"
There are no gears whatsoever in a Mazzer Mini, or any other Mazzer grinder
that I can find. The lower burr is directly driven by an adapter on the
motor shaft.
On a freshly-cleaned Major, I put 14g (1pf basket full) of beans in the
grinder and ground into the frothing pitcher. I "puffed" the residual grind
into a tared cup and got 0.4g, for a 14g (100%) recovery. I stopped the
grinder after puffing the residual grounds, but from the very start of
grinding to the completion of weighing of the samples, (puff then total) I
was all done in an easy minute.
I don't normally weigh the beans, just level out a filter full and flash
freeze them. The "Phht" takes maybe 4 or 5 seconds, on burrs that have now
ground ~ 100 pounds of coffee for espresso shots plus maybe 2k of Hard Red
wheat grain to Mighty Fine Bread Flour!
The last couple of times I cleaned it, I was really surprised at how razor
sharp the burrs feel. Maybe grinding the wheat to bread flour wasn't too
swift on a coffee grinder but didn't seem to hurt it.
Future test will be to see if it's feasible to weld over and regrind the old
burr set with Tungsten wire or flame spray. I can hear Vince now- "You want
WHAT? You want it WHEN, Ray?" Lotta work and easy to SNAFU, doing it all by
hand...
One could also eliminate the olfactory from the espresso experience- take a
good whiff of ammonium hydroxide before cupping. Then maybe the salty,
sweet, sour, bitter could be evaluated by themselves. Kinda like ignoring
certain bad weather conditions before taxiing out for a flight.
Cheers, Mabuhay und guter Abend -RayO, aka Opa!
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11) From: Ira
At 04:34 PM 3/3/2009, you wrote:
<Snip>
There is a planetary gear set just under the burrs on a Robur and I'd 
guess on any other Mazzer grinder whose burrs turn at 400-500 RPM.
Ira
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12) From: raymanowen
Well, I never found the Robur parts list, so I never saw the planetary gear
set.
Dad literally wrote the book on spur gears, and I assume the motor drives
the sun gear. Which one is stationary, the ring gear or the planetary
carrier? My XKE BW 3-spd transmission had a brake band on the ring gear, two
clutch sets, a one-way clutch, three planetary gears and I had to put
together a near clean room to reassemble it.
I learned and I got it. My heart sank when I first put it together, hung the
transmission on the engine and stuck the whole power train back. When I lit
the fuse, I had 2nd and reverse. No sweat- it was almost easy to pull the
transmission pan and the valve body to find the microscopic grit that I had
missed. I didn't, but when I cleaned the little pieces in the order
specified and stuck 12 New quarts of oil in it- "Do Not re-use..."
Amazingly, this was the first time I really appreciated the exhaust purr
This would be the first Mazzer that has any gears in it. The multiplicity of
parts invites disaster in any machine.
A 445rpm motor on 60 Hz is a no-brainer. 16 poles will give that speed at
full rated load for a PSC induction motor, which was the Mazzer norm until
the Robur. (The 6 pole Major grinds <1200 rpm)
The Mazzer paradigm is to use a PSC or 3Ø motor with the burr arbor spun
directly by the motor shaft.
Let me see, according to their specifications:
"The 3 Phase 220v version of the Mazzer Robur has ginormous 83 mm conical
burrs and a robust 900 watt motor that spins at 500 RPM make this grinder
the perfect choice for high production espresso bars. -
[And obviates the need for an expensive set of gears that I have never seen
mentioned, plus I have seen other Robur burr size specs...]
"Sure there are complaints of overheating and such, but not many bars do the
volume that causes this type of heating."
Since 500rpm is below the synchronous speed for either motor type, as is the
1600 rpm of the Major, the capacitor/ winding configuration retards the
speed and boosts the torque of the PSC motor for sure. The 3Ø motor is a
puzzlement.
I looked and looked, but saw no gears or mention of them. The Robur motor is
a brute, at over 1 hp. Who needs gears, unless you're dealing with Grinders
r Us toys?
Guess I'll have to keep looking for a planetary gear set in the Robur- maybe
i'm blind...
Cheers, Mabuhay und guter Kafe -RayO, aka Opa!
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13) From: raymanowen
Oh, My! Guess what I found? A Reishauer Gear
Grinder .
Ach, du Lieber-
One could have fun with the hand wheels and buttons, grinding a new burr for
their grinder...
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 4:17 PM,  wrote:
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ar
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two
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en
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he
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-- =
"When the theme hits the bass, I dance the Jig!" - -Virgil Fox at the Mighty
Wichita (ex- NYC Paramount) WurliTzer- 1976
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14) From: Michael Dhabolt
Barry,
I got the samples yesterday.  Glad that you included both espresso
grind and brew grind samples.  I've been questioning my ability to
come to a useful comparison of the espresso grind with my limited
equipment, a comparison of the brew grind should be in a range that is
do-able.  Another local list member, Lou, has a scope normally used
for working on surface mount components on circuit boards, It'll
provide a better platform for comparison than my equipment.  I also
received a shipping notice from Baratza that my Vario is on the way.
If they are shipping from their headquarters in Wa. state it should be
here tomorrow or the next day.  I'm thinking I'll try comparing grinds
from all three machines.
Mike (just plain)
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15) From: Barry Luterman
Great idea.Think it will be done by next week?
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Michael Dhabolt
wrote:
<Snip>
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16) From: Michael Dhabolt
Barry
Hope to get it done early next week. The Vario showed up today.
Been running pretty hard this last few days.  Ran into two machines
(HX's) in a row that had to have a Group removed, taken home to the
shop and the passageways in the casting drilled out - folks! backflush
detergent just isn't that expensive. I always ask new customers about
their machine maintenance especially backflush procedure and
frequency, I mentioned the 'swoosh' into the drain cup or tray when
the three way valve shifts at the end of a shot and got one of those
deer in the headlights looks from the owner yesterday.  Oh well, I
guess the way to look at it is that it helps my bank account, and I
now know of another place not to drink their shots.
Gotta roast tonight. let me see ..... a Bourbon (just got 20 # each of
a Brazil, Guat and El Salv) ..... and .. an Ethiopian (IMV, or maybe
the BB Sun) and I think I'll do the Indonesian Jade to bring it back
down to earth.  5# of greens should give me about 4# 4oz, just about
right.
Mike (just plain)
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17) From: Michael Dhabolt
Barry,
Unfortunately I am unable to say that I have come up with a comparison
of the grinds between the three (actually four - I added samples from
my own Mini into the comparison) grinders that is of any consequence,
other than the approximate amount of fines that the grinders produce
with new or relatively new burrs.  The results of that comparison is
that all of the grinders produce approximately the same amount of
fines per given sample size at the level of inspection I am capable of
conducting.
For those that Haven't been following this thread, the comparison is
between a Mazzer Mini with very little use on the Burr set, a New
Cimbali Max Hybrid and a new Baratza Vario.
Anyone not wanting to subject themselves to an overly verbose
dissertation without a lot of substance - go on to the next post.
I initially had half a page of notes from each sample.  I then had my
wife stir the small bowls containing the samples with a small bamboo
skewer stick and move the bowls around so my analysis could be
considered a 'blind' comparison.  When I re-addressed the samples, I
realized I had been blowing smoke with my initial comparisons, I
couldn't observe any substantive difference in the samples.
I have a well used (two years of home use, grinding for espresso)
Baratza Maestro. I also have a really well used re-branded Rossi RR45
That is well past the point where burrs should have been replaced.  I
ground a couple of samples from both of these machines.  When
comparing these samples with the other four (first inspection as well
as 'blind') the differences were immediately evident and dramatic.  In
fact I was surprised that the grind from the Maestro showed less fines
than the RR45, which will end up as a 'loaner' after a rebuild
including a new burr set.
My normal concern regarding grind from a particular grinder is the
comparative quantity of fines in the grind and I can tell that in this
circumstance all three grinders are certainly not in need of new
burrs.  The cheaper grinders, even when new, and these or similar high
quality commercial grinders, when impaired with worn burrs, produce
considerably more fines per unit of ground coffee.
The higher quantity of fines is easily (even for the palate impaired
such as myself) discerned in the shot and is a major contributor to
the overly sharp taste frequently attributed to espresso.  Again,
speaking for myself, this taste influence seems to completely mask
many of the positive influences in the taste that draw many discerning
folks to espresso.
Those folks who consume extractions other than espresso notice the
detrimental differences in taste as easily as those from the 'dark
side'.  However, IMHO, this sharpness in brewed coffee is not as much
of an overall negative, masking, influence.  I should add that I don't
normally drink brewed coffee so can't consider my attitudes about it
of any consequence.
The limitations of my inspection equipment dis-allowed comparison of
the individual particles of the grind, which is certainly relevant to
this discussion.  The discussion should include considerations such as
the concerns (held by some heavy thinkers in the coffee community)
that absolute consistency in the particles of the grind may in fact
have a tendency to overly flatten the flavor profile.
Mike (just plain)
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18) From: Barry Luterman
Interesting although not entirely unexpected. When you get to the high
priced grinders with new burrs one might expect to see no differences in the
grind even microscopically. However, both Les and I notice a taste
difference when a conical and flat burr are used for the grind.Guess at the
next PNWG all 3 grinders will have to be present for a taste off.
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Michael Dhabolt
wrote:
<Snip>
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19) From: Douglas Hoople
Mike Dhabolt wrote:
"I then had my wife stir the small bowls containing the samples with a small
bamboo skewer stick and move the bowls around so my analysis could be
considered a 'blind' comparison.  When I re-addressed the samples, I
realized I had been blowing smoke with my initial comparisons, I couldn't
observe any substantive difference in the samples."
Thanks, Mike, for publishing this really honest observation about your
methods. It's amazing what happens when we go 'blind.' Sometimes it helps to
confirm our hypotheses. Sometimes, as in this case, it exposes how much our
expectations color our sensory perceptions!
What makes this testing really interesting is your inclusion of "your tired,
your poor, the wretched refuse" into the picture, and showing quite
conclusively where the bulk of the traction lies in getting good grinds
(i.e., a well-maintained, high-quality grinder vs. a tired old thing).
Very interesting stuff!
Doug
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20) From: Michael Dhabolt
Barry,
Barry Luterman wrote:
<Snip>
I thought I could taste a bit of difference but the variables, in
several directions, of the samples coupled with my somewhat less than
'tuned up' palate forced me to not comment on it.  I was quite
surprised how similar the tastes were.  I have burrs in my mini with
about 50 #'s of grind on them and I expected to see a difference
(visually as well as taste) between it and the Vario .... It ended up
being one of those "I think .." things that I don't have enough
confidence in, to present a statement about.
Doug,
Thanks for the thanks;~)  I was also prepared to make a statement
about the big heavy machines being a "you get what you pay for" kind
of comparison.  The Vario surprised me in the taste of the shots as
well as the grinds inspection (to the level I am capable of),  It has
some neat features and at the price it may be a real winner for the
home market.  I'd like to have one in hand that had been around a few
years and had ground a ton or two of coffee.
Some days you eat the bear, some days the bear eats you.
Mike (just plain)
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21) From: miKe mcKoffee
Don't forget total elimination of fines is not a goal, at least for espresso
extraction. For espresso a certain amount of fines is a necessity. Goal is
not perfectly uniform grind.
Cut & Paste from a List post of mine 8/23/07
"Espresso Coffee The Science of Quality" 2nd Edition Andrea Illy &
Rinantonio Viani ch5 paragraph 4 reads in part: "Thus, espresso percolation
needs a plurimodal particle size distribution, where the finer particles
enhance the exposed extraction surface (chemical need) and the coarser ones
allow the water to flow (physical need)." Do your own research and study and
you'll find many other espresso authorities saying similar things. I don't
know nearly enough to make this stuff up.
End cut & paste.
Which is not to say too many fines and/or dull burrs are good thing, quite
the contrary!
miKe
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22) From: Barry Luterman
Makes sense. The conical burr flat burr combination may allow for less
uniformity between grinds than does the flat, flat combination.
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 2:42 PM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
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23) From: raymanowen
"...Goal is not perfectly uniform grind."
That statement >Begs< the question, "Exactly what IS the goal?"
If grinding the coffee beans is a step in every brewing process, there must
be a particulate size that maximizes the cup experience. "Anything goes" is
the rong answer.
"Plurimodal distribution" is, excuse me, absolute Pferdescheiße because
there is no way to control the particulate size distribution, let alone
predict it for any particular grinder/ setting.
I once had an espresso shot that resulted from such unpredictable haphazard
grinding and other errors. It has taken me four years, cost two Grinders 'r
Us toys and a cavalcade of steam to pump espresso machines to determine that
the barista that pulled that shot was hobbled by a  tyranny of small errors
that multiplied on some $$ machinery and DazBog beans.
If the grind size can be a "Plurimodal distribution," the temperature is
also unimportant and needs no particular stability. "Pmd" is unknowable and
uncontrollable. Just a cute description of coffee rubble.
"Plurimodal distribution" would render the packing step a random exercise,
like stepping through a cow pasture at night. If it were a fact, it could be
measured, specified, controlled and repeated. No soap.
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
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24) From: miKe mcKoffee
Sorry Rayo, but I'll take the experience of the Illy's who've spent their
lives researching and studying and nigh-on worshipping espresso over your
scant 4 years. And in fact that was but a small excerpt from what I'd
literally call a PhD level book discussing the multitude aspects of
espresso. You say there's "no way to control the particulate size
distribution", based on what? The real "experts" disagree with you. =
Get the book, read it, re-read, re-read again and again until it sinks in
(which for the most part is still over my head), then comment on "plurimodal
particle size distribution" being a fairy tale. It was not a statement
written by some layman or wannabe. They did not say random particle size or
anything goes, quite the contrary.
miKe
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25) From: Bob Hazen
Ray,
You need to write a book!  I'd buy it - I'm sure others would too.  Not sur=
e =
what the subject might be.  Philosophy?  Communication?  Coffee roasting? =
The World According to Ray?  Regardless, your method of communication cause=
s =
me to read each word  c a r e f u l l y  and  u n d e r s t a n d  just wha=
t =
you're saying.  You remind me of my physics professor.  Could it be?  Did =
you teach at UW?
Bob


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