HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Long Term Storage Question (79 msgs / 2280 lines)
1) From: Paul
Over a year ago, The list suggested to me to vacuum seal greens and place them in the freezer for long term storage. I was wanting to store favorite goodies to savor long after Tom no longer had them for sale. A couple of weeks ago, the folks at Coumbia Street Roastery in Champaign, Illinois told me that the vacuum seal was a good idea, but they didn't recommend the freezer. Any insight from the list would be most appreciated!
Paul Carder
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2) From: John A C Despres
Hi, Paul. I've had great luck just vacuum sealing. I break my purchases into
1/2 pound batches and vac seal 'em at that size since that's what I roast.
So far the results have been great.
Also, as a side note, I put the label inside the bag so there's no chance of
it falling off the package...
John
On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 12:16 PM, Paul  wrote:
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3) From: John Borella
Lots of good info on greens storage here:http://www.terroircoffee.com/content/view/144/28/

4) From: Bill S.
Paul,
I store my greens in a (second) refrigerator.  I also (immediately) break my
greens into 1/2# roast-sized batches, stored in resealable sandwich baggies
(not vacuum packed), kept in Tom's 5# labeled bags, kept in Tom's 20#
shipping cartons, in the refrig.  I roast, generally, (2) 1/2# batches a
week.  Each 1/2# batch is kept in (5) white relabeled RX containers, also
kept in the refrig until consumed.
I have found no deterioration of either green or roasted beans with this
storage method. My green bean inventory turnover is about 6-9 months, and
the roasted bean inventory is about 1 week.
Bill S.
On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 12:16 PM, Paul  wrote:
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5) From: miKe mcKoffee
I wouldn't put too much stock into what "Columbia Street Roastery" says
about freezing greens. Have they tried it or just going by old wives tales?
There are a few TOP roasters who in fact routinely freeze their greens in
huge walk in deep freezers. 
I've had good results vac sealing and freezing greens. I know of a number of
long time home roasters who also do it. I don't do it with all my commercial
greens just a select few for one simple reason, I can't afford the freezer
space and capacity yet...
Many (not all) "professionals" still think freezing roasted coffee kills it
too. Bah...
Slave to the Bean Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.NorwestCoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
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6) From: miKe mcKoffee
George Howell and Terroir Coffee was exactly who I was thinking of, I
believe 49th Parallel in Canada has also gone this route. Don't know who
else. Someday in the hopefully not too distance future all my greens will
get this treatment. For now just my BEST SO's get vac (hermetically) sealed
and deep frozen. (Not speaking of personal stash, Nor'West Coffee Roastery
greens)
miKe
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7) From: Floyd Lozano
Yep, they have been doing this for years - the process can certainly
be trusted.  In fact they will demonstrate the results - they have
tasting sessions several times a year where they compare coffee
freshly roasted that is new arrival, long term storage in jute, and
vac seal / frozen for 6 mo to a year.  The differrence between 1 and 3
was not discernable by me, but hooo boy, you know which came from
jute.  Blech.
-F
On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 11:59 PM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
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8) From: Allon Stern
On May 1, 2009, at 11:59 PM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>
Won't a vacuum force the beans to outgas faster than they would  
normally?
How about storing them at normal pressure, after flushing with dry  
nitrogen, with an exhaust check valve?
Then there's Sivetz' patent....http://www.sivetzcoffee.com/preservation_patent.htm-
allon
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9) From: Allon Stern
On May 4, 2009, at 1:06 PM, Allon Stern wrote:
<Snip>
Ah, whoops, greens, not roasted.
Still, a nitrogen flush should keep them from oxidizing, no?
Will a vacuum harm the greens?
-
allon
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10) From: Mike Chester
<Snip>
You are not storing them a vacuum chamber.  The vacuum removes most of the 
air from the bag and draws it up tight around the beans.  At this point 
there is very little negative pressure in the bag, so it has very little 
effect.  The primary purpose is to block air and moisture from reaching the 
beans.  I have been doing this for awhile now and can assure that it 
definitely extends the life of the beans.  Freezing further slows the 
chemical reactions in the bags, but I usually store at room temperature for 
green beans.
Mike Chester
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11) From: decrisce.md
I have not had the mechanism to freeze beans, but most all are vacpacked based on multiple recommendations. It appears as if it is working great. (However not double blinded and randomized to a control group)
-

12) From: Barry Luterman
MiKe did such a study a few years ago. Vac packed frozen won
On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 9:22 AM,  wrote:
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13) From: Jim Couch
would the ziplock vac bag count as vac packed?
I have noticed that they seem to loose their vac but didn't know if it was
from lousy integrity or outgassing of roasted beans.....
Haven't even tried storing greens in em. Just roasteds....
Jim
On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Barry Luterman  wrote:
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14) From: Eric Faust
I have actually done a lot of research into this topic and prefer GrainPro.
The material has one of the slowest oxygen permeability rates. They are air
tight hermetic bags. In my opinion it is not necessary to vacuum seal
coffee. You will never get all of the oxygen out of the bag, so the beans
will still oxidize. Vacuum sealing roasted coffee makes sense because the
beans will emit CO2 and push out the rest of the oxygen creating a stable
environment, but with greens all you need is a package with low permeability
so that the rate of oxidization is reduced.
As for freezing I am skeptical. We have to remember that there is moisture
in coffee. When you freeze beans I would theoretically think that the
moisture would expand thus harming the cell structure of the bean, possibly
weakening it. If you weaken the cell structure, the beans will react
differently as they are roasted.
Just my thoughts, I would love to hear more from other about the reason
behind vacuum sealing and freezing. For now I would go with GrainPro.
Eric Faust
On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Barry Luterman  wrote:
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15) From: decrisce.md
Vac packing is hardcore in seal, much more significantly sealed than ziplock. 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

16) From: Eric Faust
Oxygen permeates plastic. Ziplock bags, no matter how much air is pulled out
and how good the seal is it will go right through plastic. You need a
plastic that slows down the rate of permeation of oxygen.
Eric Faust
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:43 AM,  wrote:
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17) From: miKe mcKoffee
Eric,
You are of course welcome to your opinion that greens won't benefit from vac
sealing. Top coffee professionals like George Howell, and hey Tom Owens
think differently. As far as freezing greens, not 100% sure on Tom's
conclusions or ongoing testing but George Howell's Terroir Coffee is very
clear. FWIW All my Top coffee greens are vac sealed and frozen. 
Theoretical speculation is about worthless. Doing it and testing the
results, there is value. I've done it and do it, it works as far as I'm
concerned.
Slave to the Bean Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.NorwestCoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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18) From: Eric Faust
MiKe,
I agree freezing does preserve the character of coffee. I have done it
myself. With that said freezing does change the bean and the way that coffee
is roasted. As beans unthaw they will create condensation, resulting in more
water on the surface of the bean. Having more water on the surface of the
bean will create oxidization which will begin degrading the coffee. I have
not done enough research into how soon coffee should be roasted after it is
unthawed. If you have done research, please share.
My theory on freezing effecting the cell structure of the bean is a theory,
but I am not sure it is worthless. I think that looking at the process of
theory and the delicate structure of the coffee bean, we have to consider
the possibility. In time and when I find a way I will look into this. If
someone already has, please share.
As for vac sealing, I still do not agree that it is necessary and am welcome
to changing my opinion if the evidence is there. Vac sealing roasted coffee
makes sense, but vac sealing green coffee does not. When you vac seal
roasted coffee you take out as much oxygen as possible. When you can't suck
out any more there is still oxygen in the bag because there is air between
the bean. In roasted coffee CO2 is emitted. With a one way seal bag this
will slowly lower the amount of oxygen in the package, creating an
environment that will slow the degradation of the coffee.
In green coffee CO2 is not emitted. You can vac seal a bag of green coffee,
but you will never get all of the oxygen out of the bag and without CO2
being emitted the oxygen level in the bag will not lower. That means that
oxygen will still be present resulting in oxidization (water activity) that
will degrade the coffee. What is more important than vacuum sealing is using
a material that oxygen cannot permeate easily. There is polyethylene, mylar,
polyethylene lined with aluminum, GrainPro and a number of other materials.
Each of these have a different resistance to oxygen permation. No material
is an absolute barrier to oxygen, unless you are using glass. The amount of
oxygen you start with in a bag does not matter as much as how much oxygen
will leak into the bag over time. With any bag it is important to squeeze
out as much oxygen as possible, but vacuum sealing is a measure that is
beyond what is necessary. If you can slow down slow down the rate of oxygen
leaking into the bag you can slow down the rate of oxidization, resulting in
a prolonged preservation of the coffee.
Of course freezing would completely stabalize the coffee, and if you are not
concerned about the effects it is the right choice. For me, I want to extend
the life of the coffee, but I do not need to extend it indefinately. I have
spoken with George and he said he has coffee that were frozen seven years
ago and they are as good as they were right after the harvest. I don't deny
that it is true, but for me coffee doesn't need to stick around for seven
years. There are new crops every year, and if I can extend the life of the
coffee from 3 or 4 months to a year that is good enough.
This is an excellent discussion and progressive discussion. Of course I
welcome you to correct or dispute anything I have said. What I want is to
know what is truly right for coffee and why. My opinion is only my opinion,
my love for the bean and a search for the truth about it is what matters
much much more.
Let's keep this discussion going.
Best Regards,
Eric Faust
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:35 PM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
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19) From: MichaelB
There are more things going on in green coffee over time than oxidation.
When I receive greens I always weigh them out into half pound lots ready for
roasting. I used to store them in the cotton bags that Tom sells. I would
find that after a few months the 227 gram bags would lose 10 or 15 grams
when I reweighed them before roasting. Now that I store the greens in vac'd
foodsaver bags they lose no more than a gram even up to a year in storage.
Vacuum sealing cuts down on moisture loss big time.
I have very limited freezer space but I would definitely freeze more vac'd
greens if I could without fear of damaging the coffee. Condensation is only
a problem if you open the bag before it reaches room temperature or if you
freeze beans without vac'ing them first. There are so many reasons I can
think of for preserving greens for long periods of time. Just one example,
anybody working with farmers to improve growing conditions and processing
methods would be very well served to be able to compare crops over
successive years.
On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Eric Faust  wrote:
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MichaelB
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20) From: Richard Webber
One quick comment. You mention condensation on the beans during thawing. I thought the purpose of vacuum sealing before freezing was to eliminate this problem. You wouldn't actually need to vacuum seal - just sealing would probably do it. If you keep the beans sealed until they reach room temperature there will not be any condensation on the beans. The condensation will be on the outside of the bag/container instead.
Richard
From: Eric Faust 
To:"A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this list,  available athttp://www.sweemarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
Sent: Wednesday, May 6, 2009 8:01:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Long Term Storage Question
MiKe,
I agree freezing does preserve the character of coffee. I have done it
myself. With that said freezing does change the bean and the way that coffee
is roasted. As beans unthaw they will create condensation, resulting in more
water on the surface of the bean. Having more water on the surface of the
bean will create oxidization which will begin degrading the coffee. I have
not done enough research into how soon coffee should be roasted after it is
unthawed. If you have done research, please share.
My theory on freezing effecting the cell structure of the bean is a theory,
but I am not sure it is worthless. I think that looking at the process of
theory and the delicate structure of the coffee bean, we have to consider
the possibility. In time and when I find a way I will look into this. If
someone already has, please share.
As for vac sealing, I still do not agree that it is necessary and am welcome
to changing my opinion if the evidence is there. Vac sealing roasted coffee
makes sense, but vac sealing green coffee does not. When you vac seal
roasted coffee you take out as much oxygen as possible. When you can't suck
out any more there is still oxygen in the bag because there is air between
the bean. In roasted coffee CO2 is emitted. With a one way seal bag this
will slowly lower the amount of oxygen in the package, creating an
environment that will slow the degradation of the coffee.
In green coffee CO2 is not emitted. You can vac seal a bag of green coffee,
but you will never get all of the oxygen out of the bag and without CO2
being emitted the oxygen level in the bag will not lower. That means that
oxygen will still be present resulting in oxidization (water activity) that
will degrade the coffee. What is more important than vacuum sealing is using
a material that oxygen cannot permeate easily. There is polyethylene, mylar,
polyethylene lined with aluminum, GrainPro and a number of other materials.
Each of these have a different resistance to oxygen permation. No material
is an absolute barrier to oxygen, unless you are using glass. The amount of
oxygen you start with in a bag does not matter as much as how much oxygen
will leak into the bag over time. With any bag it is important to squeeze
out as much oxygen as possible, but vacuum sealing is a measure that is
beyond what is necessary. If you can slow down slow down the rate of oxygen
leaking into the bag you can slow down the rate of oxidization, resulting in
a prolonged preservation of the coffee.
Of course freezing would completely stabalize the coffee, and if you are not
concerned about the effects it is the right choice. For me, I want to extend
the life of the coffee, but I do not need to extend it indefinately. I have
spoken with George and he said he has coffee that were frozen seven years
ago and they are as good as they were right after the harvest. I don't deny
that it is true, but for me coffee doesn't need to stick around for seven
years. There are new crops every year, and if I can extend the life of the
coffee from 3 or 4 months to a year that is good enough.
This is an excellent discussion and progressive discussion. Of course I
welcome you to correct or dispute anything I have said. What I want is to
know what is truly right for coffee and why. My opinion is only my opinion,
my love for the bean and a search for the truth about it is what matters
much much more.
Let's keep this discussion going.
Best Regards,
Eric Faust
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:35 PM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
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21) From: Bob
Eric,
Oxygen not withstanding, the reason *I* vac seal all my greens 
is to maintain the moisture content  ~ my basement in Parker CO 
hovers around 10% - 12%, if I'm lucky, and may drop lower during 
the winter. Not good for my stash imho. Others (such as those in 
the PNW area) have the opposite issue, molding.
Seems to help
Bob [but it's a dry heat]

22) From: Eric Faust
Oxidization is the reason that coffee is losing weight, the loss of weight
is the loss of moisture. It is not surprising that when you changed from a
cotton bag to a food grade plastic bag less weight was lost. That means less
moisture was lost. That is because food grade plastic is a greater barrier
against oxygen than cotton. The fact is weight was still lost, which means
moisture was still lost. Try packaging the coffee in glass, there will be no
weight loss, because oxygen cannot penetrate glass. As for plastic, oxygen
will penetrate any type of plastic. How quickly and at what rate it
penetrates the plastic depends on what type it is. For example, aluminum
lined bags have a greater barrier than mylar and mylar has a greater barrier
than polyethylene. Any type of plastic will have a greater barrier than
cotton.
The comment on not opening the bag until it was unthawed to prevent
condensation was right on. Thank you for that.
What I want to make sure is that we are not missing the point. There is no
air tight plastic bag, what there is is different plastics with different
types of barriers. Vac sealing is not essential, and no plastic is perfect.
What we can do is select a plastic that has an highly effective barrier
against oxygen.
This discussion is great, I am learning with the rest of you. Let us keep it
going.
Eric Faust
On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 6:32 PM, Bob  wrote:
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23) From: Ira
At 10:10 AM 5/7/2009, you wrote:
<Snip>
Oxidation has nothing to do with weight loss and nothing to do with moisture.
Ira
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24) From: Kirk Janowiak
A few biological comments:
1. >>As beans unthaw they will create condensation, resulting in more  
water on the surface of the bean. <<
Not if they are still in vacuum storage.
Just where would the water come from? It will not be "expressed" from  
the beans while still in the bag. This doesn't happen even if you  
simply freeze the bean in a plain plastic bag. Such condensation will  
only occur if you take the beans out of the bag to thaw in a room with  
a relative humidity above 35% or so. I do this all the time (freeze  
greens and roasted beans) and never get condensation in the bag - even  
in the 99% relative humidity of Indiana in July.
2. >>My theory on freezing effecting the cell structure of the bean is  
a theory,but I am not sure it is worthless. I think that looking at  
the process of theory and the delicate structure of the coffee bean,  
we have to consider the possibility. In time and when I find a way I  
will look into this. If someone already has, please share.<<
The beans are not so delicate as you presume. Many seeds of many  
plants are frozen with quite little cellular damage. Plant foliage is  
certainly a different matter, but hard seeds like beans and coffee do  
not suffer a great deal of internal damage due to freezing. It's a  
time-tested (time-honored) method of storage for hard seeds - as is  
drying.
3. >>In green coffee CO2 is not emitted.<<
Yes, CO2 IS emitted from green coffee. The seeds are living. There is  
a coffee embryo in each seed. These embryos consume oxygen and emit  
CO2. Small amounts in this near dormant state, to be sure, but  
respiration IS taking place, nonetheless.
One of the very reasons deep freezing and vacuum storage work to  
preserve green coffee (flavor) as has been noted by testing by Howel,  
Owens and others is that is slows or stops cellular respiration as  
well as degradation due to oxidation of and other chemical reactions  
between the molecular nutrients (starches, lipids, proteins,  
etc....the things we are cooking & tasting) surrounding the embryo.
Kirk
On May 6, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Eric Faust wrote:
<Snip>
JanoMac
janomac
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25) From: Kirk Janowiak
On May 7, 2009, at 2:03 PM, Ira wrote:
<Snip>
C6H12O6 + 6O2 --> 6CO2 + 6H2O
Respiration produces water. Some of the moisture in your breath is  
from your own cellular respiration. In the coffee beans or in any  
living system, whether due to the fungi and bacteria in rotting  
organic material or in growing plants, moisture will be released from  
the oxidative respiration reactions.
As starches are hydrolyzed and water and CO2 released, mass will be  
lost.
That said, under cool storage, mass loss due to respiration in a few  
pounds of coffee beans would be minimal, but over time would be  
measurable.
Kirk
JanoMac
janomac
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26) From: Eric Faust
Ira and others,
I would love to hear why you don't think oxidation effects weight loss and
moisture. I am open to learning and changing my mind, but not simply because
someone says so. I need to know why.
I will again explain oxidation in coffee. Oxidation is when oxygen comes in
contact with cells and breaks them down, changing the structure of the
substance. In order to prevent oxidation you must have a barrier, so that
oxygen cannot continue to breakdown the substance. For example, an apple has
a thin layer of skin. The skin is the barrier between the fleshy part of the
the  fruit and the oxygen in the air. When that skin is broken the apple
will begin browning. This is a result of oxidation. The skin of a coffee
cherry is also a barrier against oxygen. The problem is we work with the pit
of the fruit. That means the natural barrier has been removed. The pit does
not have a natural barrier against oxygen, that is why oxidation will occur
and why the beans will degrade and lose moisture. The loss of moisture is
the breaking down of the coffee. When moisture is lost weight is lost. A wet
t-shirt will weigh more when it is wet than when it is dry. With coffee
beans there is no natural barrier against oxygen because the natural barrier
has been removed. That means that we must create a barrier. Using plastic,
aluminum or glass we can create a natural barrier, slowly the rate of
oxidation.
Of course when the bag or container is closed there will be oxygen in the
bag, even when it is vac sealed. Oxidation will occur until the beans have
reached equilibrium with the environment inside of the bag or container.
Once it has reached equilibrium oxidation will slow and the degrading of the
coffee will slow. Since oxygen can penetrate every material, except for
glass, it is important to find a material that oxygen penetrates slowly.
Each material has a different rate of permeability. Using any type of
plastic will give you a greater barrier to jute, sisal, cotton etc. Each
type of plastic will have a different rate of oxygen permeability. For the
homeroaster packaging in plastic makes sense and if you use your stash
quickly almost any plastic will do. I homeroast, but I also roast at a cafe.
At the cafe we buy in large amounts and need to be able to keep the coffee
around for at least a year. In order to do so, I repackage the coffee into
GrainPro bags. I chose these bags because of the high resistance to oxygen.
For the homeroaster a GrainPro bag that can hold 120# (smallest bag they
make). That is what is great about homeroasting. You can keep the coffee in
plastic to preserve them for a few months and then order new coffees. That
way your coffee is always fresh.
Again, I welcome this discussion. I am not a scientist, I simply love coffee
and love this list. Let us get to the bottom of this. Chime in on anything I
am saying that might not make sense. I am more than willing to learn.
Best Regards,
Eric Faust
On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Ira  wrote:
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27) From: Eric Faust
All:
This morning one of my long standing roasting friends wrote to me about my
comments on coffee storage an oxidation. He has a degree in chemistry and he
bleeds coffee. I wished he had commented for the list, but regardless I felt
my response to him should be copied to the rest of the list. He raise a
concern about my definition of oxidation. This was my response. I know that
we have a lot of knowledgeable coffee professionals and chemist in the
group. Let me know your thoughts.
*Response to Aaron:
*If the moisture content in a coffee bean is not at equilibrium with the
environment, volatiles will move in or out of the bean. High temps and
humidity will cause absorption while low temps and humidity will cause a
loss. Osmosis occurs with out energy as a solute passes through a permeable
membrane until it reaches equilibrium. High temps and humidity will cause
the bean to absorb volatiles from the air. Low temps and humidity will pull
volatiles out of the bean. What happens after volatiles start moving is the
concern. Oxidation is a molecular reaction resulting from the transferring
of energy. Oxidation occurs when oxygen transfers two electron to hydrogen
creating water. As oxygen moves into the bean via osmosis it will create
water, the increase in water content in the bean will result in mold. As
volatiles move out of the bean oxygen will transfer electrons to hydrogen
(oxidization) creating water on the surface of the bean. This water will
evaporate creating a loss in moisture and a loss in weight. If oxygen is not
present osmosis will occur until an equilibrium is reached, but oxidization
will not occur. The osmosis that occurs cannot be stopped, but the reaction
that occurs after osmosis can be stopped. That is done by eliminating the
presence of oxygen. By using the right material the beans will begin the
natural process of oxidization, but it will stop when oxygen is not longer
present.
I have been talking about oxidization because it is what we as humans can
control. It is a reaction that can be slowed. Osmosis of volatiles cannot be
stopped, but it doesn't matter because nothing happens until oxygen is
introduced and water is created.
On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 9:13 AM, Eric Faust  wrote:
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28) From: Sam49
What is a link / reference to the "testing by Howel, Owens, and others" 
that you mention?
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29) From: Allon Stern
On May 7, 2009, at 9:10 PM, Kirk Janowiak wrote:
<Snip>
Wow. How we forget, our greens are living, breathing things. No  
wonder how they are treated before roasting has such a large effect.  
And no wonder they have a definite shelf life.
-
allon
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30) From: Sam49
Are we sure that the coffee beans are living viable seeds that would 
sprout given all that has happened to them in the processing that makes 
them a roastable coffee bean.?
I think this is a debatable assertion.  I don't know the answer, but I 
tend to doubt that they are still viable.  You sure can't sprout many of 
the other "seeds / grains / beans" that you buy to eat.
I would like to see some confirmation of this.
Sam
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31) From: Eric Faust
Kirk,
This was very helpful thank you. I believe you that freezing works as I
believe George Howell. I have yet to accurately test freezing with some kind
of measure, but what you have contributed does make sense and makes me
question my thoughts about how fragile the cell structure of a coffee bean
is.
Also, I should not have said green coffee does not emit CO2, you are right
it does. What I should have said is that it does not emit as much CO2 as
roasted coffee. The reason why it doesn't bloat bags.
Thank you again for your contribution.
Eric Faust
On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 8:10 PM, Kirk Janowiak  wrote:
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32) From: raymanowen
"Many (not all) "professionals" still think freezing roasted coffee kills it
too. Bah..."
Johnny Carson's character, *The Great Karnak*, could divine the thoughts of
other people.
I, too have been referred to in quotation marks by others that considered me
as competetion. Since I was an independent contractor, my GAS Factor of
others' opinions was microscopic. Only my customers' opinions counted.
I could warranty my work in Cleveland, OH or Jackson, MS even though it
would have meant a trip from Denver on Ray's account. I was hoping to have a
reason to revisit the ethnic neighborhoods of Chicago or Cleveland. Never
happened.
Cheers, Mabuhay at magandang Hapon sa Inyong Lahat -RayO, aka Opa!
Non- Professionals Unite!
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33) From: Eric Faust
Kirk,
Thank you again for this post. As Kirk pointed out:
C6H12O6 + 6O2 --> 6CO2 + 6H2O
This is the oxidation of glucose and the reduction of carbon dioxide,
creating water. Without oxygen this could not have occurred.
Thank you Kirk.
Eric Faust
On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Kirk Janowiak  wrote:
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34) From: Allon Stern
On May 8, 2009, at 3:43 PM, Sam49 wrote:
<Snip>
Here ya go:http://www.sweetmarias.com/growingcoffeeathome.php-
allon
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35) From: raymanowen
We had some 9 ft tall sunflowers with heads the size of dinner plates. The
ones replanted by birds and squirrels grew into much smaller, multi headed
sunflowers. I never saw what happened to corn, peas or soybeans or wanted to
experiment with chicken eggs... ro
On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 1:43 PM, Sam49  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Persist in old ways; expect new results - suborn Insanity...
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36) From: raymanowen
"I think this is a debatable assertion.  I don't know the answer, but I tend
to doubt that they are still viable.  You sure can't sprout many of the
other "seeds / grains / beans" that you buy to eat."
Maybe I'm confused. Something funny happens to potatoes, onions and beans if
they are kept in a watch glass with moisture... They sprout. Never tried
actually growing any of the sprouts, and I'll never know if the green coffee
seeds would sprout...
Cheers -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?
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37) From: Wally Merrin
Eric...
<Snip>
You have said this several times, and it sounds as if you are saying  
that vacuum sealing a bag doesn't remove the oxygen.  That is contrary  
to my experience with my own vacuum sealer, which pumps enough air out  
of the bag to turn a bag of sugar into a solid brick.  There may be a  
small amount of residual gas of some sort inside the cell structure of  
coffee beans but there certainly isn't significant gas remaining in  
the interstitial spaces between the beans.  I agree that imperfect  
machines don't create perfect vacuums, but they do pretty darn good.
<Snip>
And that's precisely the point of vacuum sealing the bag.  By  
mechanically removing virtually all of the air, equilibrium is reached  
much sooner (and with a much lower level of degradation) then would  
happen if the bag were simply closed like a zip-lock style bag.  There  
is far less oxygen remaining in the bag - like almost none.  I think  
you over-estimate the permeability of Food Saver style storage bags  
and under estimate the effectiveness of good quality vacuum sealing  
machines.  I have recovered vacuum sealed meats lost in the freezer  
which showed no sign of air infiltration after several years.  Sure,  
there had to be some, but not enough to cause the bag to show signs of  
re-inflation or to permit any visible freezer burn.
I haven't been home roasting long enough to have started vacuum  
sealing my greens (although I intend to start now that my stash is  
growing), but I have been using a good quality vacuum sealer for over  
ten years.  I can say with some degree of certainty that bags which  
show signs of re-inflation after several years have suffered a seal  
failure or a bag penetration.  It isn't due to air infiltration from  
plastic's porosity - if it was, they would all re-inflate, and that  
just hasn't been my experience.
Wally
==
Wally Merrin
wmerrin
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38) From: Aaron Boothe
Good morning all,
I am a hardcore lurker on this list.  I read almost every post, but rarely
voice my own opinion.  You guys are all a wealth of knowledge that
continually redefines my view on coffee. Thank you for that.
Kirk, is there a source you can send on the ability of seeds to withstand
freezing? It seems like I have heard of farmers (not coffee) doing that, but
I am so far removed from any sort of farming, that I really have no idea.
We do have to remember though, coffee is not like most seeds.  Green coffee
has about 150 volatile compounds known (I don't remember the exact number)
and roasted coffee has over 850.  This makes it one of the most complex and
least understood culinary subjects ever.  When given a choice between a
fresh caught Alaskan salmon or one from the freezer, everyone would want the
fresh one.  Why? Because it seems like freezing changes the flavor of
things.  I understand that many coffee professionals and many of you guys
(who usually seem to know quite a bit more than the professionals) freeze
coffee.  I am not saying that it doesn't work, and neither is Eric.  He and
I roasted together for a long time, and we froze all of our green coffees.
However, it seemed to us, that the frozen coffee roasted differently than it
did before it was frozen.  Generally, we would get a coffee in, roast some
immediately, and freeze the rest.  It seem like the coffee yellowed and
cracked sooner if it had been frozen.  Has anyone else noticed this?
No one has intended to disprove that vacuum sealing and freezing have
merit.  These methods clearly do.  However, I do not believe these are the
best possible methods of storage.  I do not know the best possible methods
yet, but I think we all should push forward on that front.  50 years ago,
people thought that the green coffee was stable and did not need any special
treatment.  There are still many coffee professionals today that believe
roast profiles are made up, and have nothing to do with the taste of coffee.
All I am saying is that we should not settle for something.  Let us continue
to raise the bar on coffee storage, and coffee in general.
Aaron
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39) From: Joseph Robertson
Wally,
Which type of freezer, are you using old stye deep freeze or the newer
defrost cycle type?
JoeR
On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Wally Merrin  wrote:
<Snip>
ag
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lly
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ining
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ity
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eats
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show
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ave
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with
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n't
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ll
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ee.com
<Snip>
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40) From: miKe mcKoffee
Good point which I forgot to mention. Do NOT want to use freezer with auto
defrost for long term storage. You can get away with it with roasted coffee
frozen shorter term like a month or two without noticeable degradation.
 
Slave to the Bean Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.NorwestCoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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41) From: Wally Merrin
<Snip>
Both are frost-free, one is a side-by-side freezer compartment with  
the refrigerator and the other is an upright freezer.  The other day  
we were cleaning out some stuff and found a piece of vacuum sealed  
meat dated 2005 that still retained its vacuum.  I don't know how it  
got missed, but there it was...
Wally
==
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42) From: Joseph Robertson
miKe,
Thanks for the clarification. I remembered our last conversation
regarding types of freezers. Thus asked Wally what he was using.
Freezing greens is another game.
JoeR
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 12:46 PM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
ee
<Snip>
nt
<Snip>
re.
<Snip>
ee.com
<Snip>
ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
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43) From: Wally Merrin
On May 9, 2009, at 12:46 PM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>
Why is that, does the lower thermal mass of coffee beans cause that  
much swing in internal temperature?  I haven't noticed any degradation  
in the normal freezer foods we keep, as long as the vacuum bag doesn't  
lose its integrity.
I'm planning on vacuum-sealing some greens but I doubt I will freeze  
any.  Freezer space is somewhat limited and my wife doesn't drink  
coffee, so it drops way down on the priority list in the freezer space  
allocation battle.
Wally
==
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wmerrin
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44) From: Barry Luterman
I've learned to save my fights for counter space. I won the last one when I
added a second grinder. It pays to pick your battles for coffee space. If it
were up to me the whole kitchen would become coffee related and we would eat
all meals out.
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Wally Merrin  wrote:
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45) From: Joseph Robertson
miKe,
help us with this question from Wally
Joe
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Wally Merrin  wrote:
<Snip>
to
<Snip>
 it
<Snip>
e.
<Snip>
ee.com
<Snip>
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46) From: miKe mcKoffee
The 'ideal' is to maintain low cold temp. My understanding of auto-defrost
cycle works by raising the temp to defrost then lowering back to normal
freezer temp. When ideal not available, use next best available, ie
auto-defrost freezer!
miKe =
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47) From: Joseph Robertson
Ahh, a constant temp with no cycles. That is what I thought you told me.
Joe
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 2:13 PM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
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ee.com
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48) From: John Borella
 The self defrost system uses a heated wire on the evaporator to remove =
ice/frost build up. The fans go off during this cycle so the temp in the =
freezer doesn't change all that much. I have mine set to 0°F & thats what =
the thermometer I have hanging in there says whenever I put something in or =
remove something from the freezer.
  With a conventional freezer where do you store your frozen greens stash =
when its time for the inevitable manual defrost?
John B.

49) From: Eric Faust
Wally,
You are right vacuum sealing sucks out a great amount of oxygen from the bag
allow the beans to reach equilibrium sooner. With that said you need to
remember that oxygen can permeate every type of plastic. So if you vacuum
seal coffee in a plastic that oxygen can permeate easily you have only
sucked the oxygen out for a short period of time.
I am not saying that vacuum sealing is worthless, what I am saying is that
it is far more important to be concerned with the permeability of the
plastic. For example glass is a 100% barrier against oxygen. Mylar is a
greater barrier than polyethylene and and Grain Pro is a greater barrier
than Mylar. Aluminum is a greater barrier than GrainPro, unless it cracks.
The amount of oxygen you suck out of the bag matters for a short period of
time. What is much more important is the barrier. If you want to use a
vacuum sealer that is good, just make sure you put the money into a high
quality barrier first.
Best Regards,
Eric Faust
On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 10:38 PM, Wally Merrin  wrote:
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50) From: miKe mcKoffee
Vacuum sealing and deep freezing IS the best possible "currently known"
storage method for long term greens storage. Maybe dumping them in a vat of
liquid nitrogen would be better, but I've no way to test:-)
Slave to the Bean Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.NorwestCoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
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51) From: Eric Faust
MiKe,
This discussion has led me to believe that freezing is an effective option
for storing green beans, but I continue to disagree with vacuum sealing.
This is a discussion and cannot come out and say that something is the best
if others disagree.
I continue to believe that there is no airtight plastic bag. Oxygen will
permeate every type of plastic that you could possibly use for vacuum
sealing. That means that vacuum sealing is an ineffective method for
creating an environment that is free of oxygen.
I have spoken with George Howell, Phil Villers, Luis Pascoal, Glen Sacco and
others who are pushing the packaging industry. There are many different view
points about packaging and the preserving of green coffee.
Vacuum sealing may be your proven method, but we need to stay away from
saying it is the best method. If we say that something is currently the
best, why would we look for anything better.
I continue to agree that freezing is an effective method, although I am
agreeing based on others opinions. With that said, I do not think that you
need to vacuum seal the coffee that you are freezing.
As for a final note, I use GrainPro bags for storing green coffee. I do not
freeze coffee and I use these bags because of the barrier against oxygen. If
you are interested I would be happy to tell the list more about these bags.
Best Regards,
Eric Faust
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52) From: Brian Kamnetz
Eric,
When they were first mentioned, I googled GrainPro bags and was able
to find only very large bags intended to store large amounts of grain.
Are there smaller (e.g., a quart) sizes available?
Brian
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53) From: Kris McN
Eric,
What you say about the permeability of plastic may be true, but that doesn't
negate it's usefulness for the home roaster.  When I get them, I vac seal my
greens in half pound lots in premade (FoodSaver) pint bags.  I don't have
freezer space, so they go into a cool, dark cupboard.  I have greens sealed
over 1.5 years ago that are still hard, flat bricks, so the permeability of
the plastic can't be that high.  I recently found ~ half a pound of some
Sidamo I'd had for about a year in the back of my storage cupboard that I'd
never repackaged and sealed for whatever reason.  I roasted, brewed, and
tasted it along side some of the same bean from the same order that had been
vac sealed soon after I recieved it.  The unsealed stuff wasn't terrible,
but it was dull and flat compared to the vac-sealed batch, which was still
bright and fruited, and essentially how I decribed it in my roast notes from
back in the day.  So, while it may not be the perfect method (and I'm sure,
given more resources and effort there are better methods/materials
available), vac-sealing with widely-available, consumer-oriented platic bags
is certainly an effective, easy, and accessible method for the common home
roaster.
Best,
Kris McN
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54) From: Bill S.
Unless you are trying to build a multi-year stash, is this discussion needed
to this extent?  Buy what greens you can use in a reasonable time from Tom..
then go back and buy some more from Tom when you run low...  For the most
part, these elaborate storage means have not been taken between the farm and
your front door, so you have lost some of the freshness during
transportation and storage at various points.  Do you only buy beans in the
first month that Tom offers them?
Please do not misunderstand.. I highly respect the knowledge and pursuit of
perfection being expressed.. I just think its time to roast and enjoy!..
Bill S.
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55) From: John Borella
It doesn't seem to "permeate" the plastic bags that are sold for use with 
the Foodsaver vac bagger. I've had dried peppers vac bagged & sitting in my 
pantry for several years & the bags have yet to lose their vacuum. If the 
oxygen is getting in there its certainly taking its time.
John B.

56) From: Joseph Robertson
Thanks Bill for that note.
I think we can get a little carried away here. I'm not sure what this
discussion is worth if we don't have hard numbers to back up claims.
By this i mean rate of permeability of the plastics being used for vac
sealing. As Kris points out the final test is in the cup and taste
buds. As a commercial roaster as well as a home roaster I would like
to know more about the grainpro bags but for the average home
roaster... I think it has been made clear here that the loss is
extremely minimal after many months of vac frozen storage.
Just a few more pennys for this thread.
JoeR
On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 4:49 PM, Bill S.  wrote:
<Snip>
ded
<Snip>
Tom..
<Snip>
st
<Snip>
and
<Snip>
 the
<Snip>
of
<Snip>
en.
<Snip>
fee.com
<Snip>
ee.com
<Snip>
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57) From: Doug Hoople
Yup. Sign me up for the "matter of degree" party.
Effective vacuum sealing and good, responsible storage appears to get 95% of
the benefit. The remaining 5% can be left to the wild-eyed among us.
As for the handling of coffees from farm to SM, Tom is working really hard
to move the moment of vac-sealing out closer to the source, so the
processing from end to end promises to get better over time, making it ever
more sensible to practice good storage habits at home.
A lot of us have stashes that surprise us when we inventory them, and I'm a
bit dismayed to find myself with green beans that I bought last September
that I'm not getting to because I've got so many other compelling beans that
I've bought more recently.
I haven't done anything special with them, storing them in the bags they
came in in a chest of drawers at room temperature. Given what I've been
reading on this thread, I think I'm going to regret my neglect, and am going
to start thinking a lot harder about vacuum sealing going forward.
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58) From: Yakster
Sign me up as a recent convert to vac sealing, but I'm not evangelistic
about it because of the strongly held opinions regarding this topic.  I
think that there's a lot of information out there already on this topic.
For me it's like Pascal's Wager, vac sealing can't hurt and may help so why
not.  I already have the rolls and the food saver for splitting up the bulk
meat purchases from Costco.
Regarding finding that old bag of greens, I like having my inventory in
BehmorThing to try and avoid this very problem.  I realized that my 20 # bag
of Feb 2008 Rwanda Gkongoro Nyarusiza I got from Tom is not getting any
younger so I'm working it down, I've got it down to three and a quarter
pounds now.  It's nice to be able to see the age of the beans in your
inventory and the cupping scores to plan the next roast.  I actually thought
that these beans were starting to taste really flat which got me into the
vac sealing, but the flavors came back on the next roast so I think it was
my roast profile more then the age.
Sadly, it's been two days since I last had homeroast because I gave too much
away to family on Mother's Day so it's time to roast more.  I've been
working too late and been too tired to work in a roast so far.  My Wife said
just do it today so I kidded her about roasting for me, but I hope to work
in a roast today after the kids go to bed and the conference calls with
Asia.  Maybe I should try roasting during the conference calls :-)  I'm sure
that my colleagues won't be bothered by the sound of the shop vac at the end
of the roast.
-Chris
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59) From: Doug Hoople
As if on cue, just after posting that I was worried about the state of my
aging greens, I just roast a 1/2 lb batch of Brazil Ipanema Tree DP, and
only heard two beans crack for first crack. Two beans, not two phases, just
the sound of two cracks. It was quite eerie.
There was a thread here a couple of months ago about coffee in Arizona
drying out and losing its ability to crack. When re-humidified, the cracks
were restored, indicating that coffee that moisture level is one of the
prime determinants of the first crack.
Well, I live in San Francisco, which isn't quite a desert, but it is pretty
dry, and apparently these Brazilians have dried out. I only bought those at
the end of December, so it hasn't even really been that long (5 months).
I haven't brewed any of the Tree DP up, so I don't know what kind of effect
it will have in the cup, but it can't be good.
So I'm off to find some vacuum sealing supplies!
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60) From: Doug Hoople
Well, now I have brewed up a pot, just off the roaster. Curiosity got the
better of me.
It's a pale imitation of the coffee I roasted and liked last January. Faint
hints of the nuttiness and sweetness it used to have, but only hints. It's a
pretty lifeless cup of coffee. It's not baggy yet, but it's not the vibrant
cup I'm used to.
This is my first experience with my stash greens getting tired. Wow, I feel
like I've become a real homeroaster now. I'm not posing any more! :-)
OK, I'm sold. If you have a stash, you should be taking steps to store it
properly, which sounds like vac-sealing small portions at a minimum, and
finding a cool, dark place to keep them.
Doug
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61) From: kevin creason
I'm in humid Houston, and I also roasted up some (the last :(  ) Ipanema TDN
this week. I have always found 1st snap pretty odd with this coffee, so
while two snaps defintely is particularly weak, it's not as if it was a high
grown Columbian with a really loud and definable 1st snap going to a mere 2
pops.
On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Doug Hoople  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
-Kevin
/* Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you
with experience. */
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62) From: Eric Faust
Kris,
Keep in mind that even if vac seal oxygen will permeate the plastic, but it
will not inflate the bag. In fact it is not visible to the naked eye. If
oxygen can go in, it can just as easily go out. The problem is when oxygen
goes through the plastic the beans become susceptible to it. Vac sealing is
a great way to remove oxygen, but it does not keep it removed.
To keep it removed you need to have an effective barrier. I am and will
continue to be an advocate for effective barriers against oxygen. This
should be the primary concern, not vac sealing.
Best Regards,
Eric Faust
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63) From: Jeff Kilpatrick
Eric,
Wait, what?  If the oxygen goes in, why would it go back out?  Nature abhors
a vacuum, so those O2 molecules would be, shall we say, highly motivated to
stay in the bag, no?
Thanks,
-jeff
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64) From: Doug Hoople
Eric,
You make it sound like an all-or-nothing proposition, i.e., that if there's
ANY oxygen permeation, then the whole process is ruined.
I'm not a chemist or a physicist, but I personally can't see the vast
exchange of oxygen that you describe. You seem to be implying that
vac-sealing is no better than leaving beans out in the open air. I know
that's not what you're getting at, but it's all-oxygen-all-the-time, and
it's hard to filter the oxygen alarmism from the real facts of molecule
movement here.
You might be right, that there are better and worse barriers, but the
general consensus is that vac-sealing does a pretty good job at reducing the
free flow of oxygen and, secondarily, moisture to a minimum.
Actually, here's the question: Given a scale of 1 to 100, where 1 is
open-air storage in a typical cupboard in a typical house, and 100 is
perfect immobilization of all molecules by whatever means necessary, where
would the list propose that Foodsaver-based vacuum sealing lies on that
scale? And where, Eric, would you place your preferred low-permeation medium
relative to the vac-sealing.
I'd guess, without knowing, of course, that vac-sealing gets about 80-90% of
the way there, and that the low-permeation medium will add only a few points
to that.
It's the 80/20 rule, isn't it? 80% can be achieved through relatively simple
means, but the remaining 20% takes some real doing. And that last 5% takes
the combined resources and will of a very motivated society (remember
Sputnik?).
By all means, let's get this whole oxygen thing into perspective.
Doug
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65) From: Phil Palmintere
Regarding plastic bags to keep oxygen out,  several years ago we had our
house tented for termites (for those of you who do not live in California or
the west, we get dry wood termites, not the subterranean termites as I
understand it that are common in the East & South).  Anyway, the fumigation
company gave us special plastic bags to put foodstuffs in that, when double
bagged, are FDA approved to keep Vikane (r) out.  Vikane is the name of the
fumigant chemical gas used to kill termites (and indeed anything alive -
including plants) inside the house when it is tented.  Any food that is not
put in these bags and stays in the house must be thrown out.  Any food
inside the bags can be safely left inside the house during fumigation.
The name of the plastic bags is NylofumeR bags.  Actually, they are not made
of plastic but rather of Nylon (I have some left over in my house; they feel
more like thick cellophane. 
My point in posting is this: I wonder if these food-safe bags would be a
good solution to keep the oxygen out for longer term storage?  Or maybe
these bags in combination with a can of nitrogen (the kind you can buy to
spray into a wine bottle & then re-cork it).
--Phil
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66) From: Eric Faust
Jeff,
You are correct, unless the environment changes (say climate, temperature
etc.). My point is if oxygen can permeate the plastic it can move in or out,
making it ineffective. If you can keep it out, it stays out.
Best Regards,
Eric Faust
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Jeff Kilpatrick
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67) From: Ira
At 12:36 PM 5/14/2009, you wrote:
<Snip>
Likely the best solution for this would be to put something else in 
the bag that oxidizes quite rapidly in comparison to coffee. Then 
once it's sealed the oxygen in the bag will bond with that and keep 
the level significantly lower than the bag alone. If you look at a 
vacuum tube you'll always see a mirrored area on the inside of the 
glass. I believe it's the remains of a pure aluminium wire that's 
fused after the tube is sealed. Whatever remaining oxygen is left in 
the tube after it's sealed will combine with that film and become 
aluminium oxide and leave the tube insides free of oxygen.
Or you could store it pressurized in a container flushed of oxygen.
Ira
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68) From: John A C Despres
Take a Foodsaver bag, put anything in it, vacuum it out and seal it.
Play with it, enjoy the suddenly hard brick you've created.
Imagine oxygen moving back and forth through the bag. Keep playing with it
while imagining those tiny microscopic holes the oxygen is passing through
on its way in and out of your vac sealed brick. Wow, looks like nothing is
happening. Somehow the vacuum remains even though there is oxygen flowing
inward and *outward* from a vacuum. Impossible. Physics denies the
possibility of a vacuum letting something escape.
Let's step up our experiment a little, shall we? Go to the sewing kit and
find the finest needle you can. We're going to increase the permeability of
the plastic a little tiny bit.
Go ahead and prick the plastic now. Not a huge hole, just a tiny little
prick - enough to push the tip of the needle all the way through the plastic
membrane inside of which is a vacuum.
What happened? The bag sucked air in. Only once the vacuum is totally
released through our slightly more permeable membrane will oxygen flow
freely and equally back and forth.
Our membrane will not allow air to flow equally back and forth as long as
there is a vacuum present. Things are drawn to a vacuum, not the reverse.
Lesson complete. There will be a test in the morning. Chapter 7, 8, 9 & 11
for next Monday. Have a great evening, people.
John
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Ira  wrote:
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69) From: Doug Hoople
OK, call me a slacker. I'm going for the 80%, and leaving the low-permeation
20% for those who have the means and the space to chase it.
I just went to the local bigbox and picked up a Foodsaver V2240. Nothing
special. I declined the Pro III, not because it was higher priced, but
because Foodsaver has a terrible rap for quality that doesn't seem to
correlate with top or bottom of the line. It seems that if you get a good
one, it's a keeper, and if you get a bad one, you're in for a world of hurt.
The V2240 is a later design, and has built-in features for a gasket problem
that they've been fixing for years with baling wire and scotch tape.
Knock wood, but I might have one of the good ones. I've just gone through 20
bags, sealing up about a quarter of my stash. I started with the most
recent, and I'm working my way back to the doomed beans from before New
Year's Day.
My brush with tired beans has convinced me that the 80% solution is the
minimum. It seems a shame to take all this trouble to make a great cup and
experience all this vibrant diversity, only to dissipate it, quite
literally, into the wind.
Doug
On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 4:28 PM, Doug Hoople  wrote:
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70) From: Ira
At 02:19 PM 5/15/2009, you wrote:
<Snip>
They do have weirdly decent customer service though, I went to Linens 
and Things and purchased a defective as is return for $15 or so, 
called Foodsaver and told them what happened and was told to put it 
in the trash and they'd send me a new one, which showed up a few days 
later and has been working ever since.
Ira
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71) From: Edward Bourgeois
I've been vacuum packing with a foodsaver jar sealer in qt. and half
gallon wide mouth canning jars for going on 4 years. The jars are then
stored in a dead freezer(price was right as I was paid to take it)
that just keeps the temp pretty stable. I can fit about 250 lbs of
greens in it. It has worked very well and just can't justify the cost
of a working freezer and the juice to run it.
-- 
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
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72) From: Doug Hoople
Nice compromise, Ed. Makes a lot of sense. The dead freezer is essentially a
big, insulated cooler. It will substantially dampen the effect of daily
temperature fluctations.
How long have you been able to keep your greens that way?
Doug
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 4:23 PM, Edward Bourgeois wrote:
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73) From: Karl Schendel
Ira wrote:
<Snip>
Wikipedia claims that barium was the usual flash-getter.
I'll have to dig out the old RCA Vacuum Tube Manual to
check, but barium does sound right (and is consistent with the
stuff turning white on exposure to air).
<Snip>
That would be my pick if I were really concerned about long
term bean storage:  a mild overpressure of nitrogen or argon.
Not as convenient to do as a vacuum though.
Karl
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74) From: Edward Bourgeois
The oldest right now are 06. Thinking of roasting my last lb of first
lot 06 IMV for 7/4. Roasted a 06 natural CR today for an espresso
blend. They do age in some way but they don't really seem to spoil in
the jars. I actually find some of vintage ones can add a nice
character in espresso too.
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 8:01 PM, Doug Hoople  wrote:
<Snip>
y a
<Snip>
wrote:
<Snip>
fee.com
<Snip>
ee.com
<Snip>
ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
-- =
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75) From: Edward Bourgeois
There's a picture of my greens dead freezer on my blog.
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
Amherst MA.http://www.aginclassroom.org/Homeroast mailing list">http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/ Co-President- Ma. Agriculture in the Classroomhttp://www.aginclassroom.org/Homeroast mailing list
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76) From: Quentin Decker
I know this has been beaten to death, and the physics lesson is spot
on, but, of further interest is that FoodSaver, as a food product, is
regulated by the FDA and is allowed to make the following statements.
What are vacuum packaging appliances?
FoodSaverŪ vacuum packaging appliances remove the air from bags, rolls
and food storage containers then seal these items so that air cannot
re-enter. Vacuum packaging is a superior alternative to traditional
food storage methods because it removes the oxygen that causes foods
to spoil. Many bags, rolls and containers claim to protect food, but
they are simply sealing the air in, instead of vacuuming it out before
sealing.
and
Do I have to use the FoodSaverŪ Bags? Can I vacuum package in other
plastic bags?
To vacuum package with the FoodSaverŪ, you must use the FoodSaverŪ
Bags. They are specially designed to be strong enough for vacuum
packaging and the waffle pattern in the bag is a patented design that
makes sure air does not get caught in pockets around the food.
FoodSaverŪ Bags have five layers, including an outer layer of nylon.
This configuration completely prevents air and moisture from getting
back into the bag and prevents odors from getting out or in. Other
plastic bags allow air to seep through.
Air doesn't equilibrate with a vacuum while a vacuum still exists and
these aren't just plastic bags.  So long as the bag remains tight
against the beans, a net negative pressure gradient exists and oxygen
is NOT diffusing through.
Quentin
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77) From: raymanowen
"If you look at a vacuum tube you'll always see a mirrored area on the
inside of the glass.
I believe it's the remains of a pure aluminium wire that's fused after the
tube is sealed."
In the parlance of those used to dealing with electrons rather than "holes,"
these were called Getters, that were flashed as the last step in
manufacturing the vacuum tubes. As a kid in Peoria, Il, I noticed that these
mirrored areas turned partially white in ancient old tubes.
If I managed to crack the exhaust tip on top of one of the 7- or 9-pin
miniature tubes in one of the 5-tube AC - DC radios, the whole getter flash
turned white and flaked off inside the tube. Tube still good, the vacuum
just leaked out. Poor little tube couldn't be fixed.
For high powered amateur and commercial transmitting tubes, esp. with an
external anode, no getter flash is used. Final assembly takes place in ultra
high vacuum without any envelope. Tube elements, from the filament/ cathode
- grids - anode/ plate are operated at red heat to drive out gas and
impurity atoms. Then the envelope is closed and sealed.
Big tubes (2.5 kW+ dissipation) are still rebuilt if it's not smashed.
(More
)
I knew magnesium was used for getters, but it's not exclusive. (More
yet
)
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
The rest of the story while enjoying Monkey blend- unbelievably equals the
Liquid Goldfinger...
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78) From: Yakster
Opa,
You may enjoy this link regarding vacuum tubes:http://hardocp.com/images/news/1237476767fPYMHIsYVF_1_1_l.gif"I carefully removed the glass on each tube to clean both sides as all the
tops had silver inside blocking view of tubes light... asking 50.00 each."
I don't think that this was intended as a joke.
-Chris
On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 2:04 PM,  wrote:
<Snip>
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79) From: raymanowen
As is usual with Craig's Listers and eBayers, the seller is Totally Ignorant
of the stuff he's selling. I built several Heathkit AA-100 amplifiers for
high school chums and myself. Each one had four of those little 7591 (6V6)
beauts in stereo push-pull Ultra Linear power amplifiers. 25W/ pair @ 0.7%
distortion, much less at 5W.
They're popular now in guitar amps, actually driven to saturation for the
distortion sound. The Ultra linear circuit compensated for the slight
nonlinearity of the beam power tetrodes. I think Svetlana makes them
currently, so $50 is a wet dream. 6CA7, 6L6 and 6550 are pin- pin compatible
but draw much higher filament current. Aux filament transformer and...
A custom set of toroids would be dynamite with 4X150A's, but that would blow
my discretionary coffee funds for another milennium.
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
-- 
Persist in old ways; expect new results - suborn Insanity...
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