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Topic: What can be done to make this listserv run better? (32 msgs / 814 lines)
1) From: Mike Chester
I am writing this on Sunday afternoon, but it won't appear until Monday afternoon.  In fact, I made a post early Friday afternoon and it also won't appear until Monday.  I know I am not the only one this is happening to as I only got about a dozen posts all weekend and this was above average.  I have written to Derek and was told that my ISP was bouncing messages and that caused me to automatically be put into the moderate queue.  He has manually overridden this and put me back into the non-moderated category but it only lasts about a week.  When this first started last fall, several people suggested getting a Gmail account which I did.  This solved the problem until about two months ago when it began again.  I see that some of the people who get through on the weekends use Gmail, so they can't be bouncing all of their accounts.  About a month ago, I reactivated my old account and kept the Gmail account to see if different messages were delivered by the two accounts.  So far,
  I have gotten two of each message so that does not seem to be the case.  I know that Derek has more important jobs than babysitting the listserv so I can't ask him for help again.  Besides, it does not last, anyway.  
Does anyone have any ideas?  If those of us that are in this position try to comment or answer a question, the subject has been changed by the time our posts get through, so what is the point of posting?  I feel left out and I am sure that I am not the only one.  
Sorry for the rant.
Mike Chester
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2) From: Sweet Maria's Coffee
Hi Mike, I checked just now and your account was set to 
'moderation'... to my knowledge this occurs with new accounts (not 
the case here) and with email accounts bouncing messages only. Should 
be fine now.
Just email us if you every have a problem
info
Best,
Derek
<Snip>
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3) From: Ken B
I think I am in the same boat as you Mike.
I just got 29 messages after getting about a dozen over the weekend.  
And yes, I also was 'moderated', and taken off of the list, though I 
think I am back on it now.  No real biggie, except for the flood on 
Mondays. ;-)  If they can set the number of 'bounces', this may help, 
but since I get mail daily from all over, I don't think it is really 
bouncing.  I think perhaps they cannot send, and that is counted as a 
bounce.
Best Regards,
Ken B
Sweet Maria's Coffee wrote:
<Snip>
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4) From: John and Emma
I am not knowledgeable enough to have a solution. I have been receiving very
few messages recently and then all of a sudden I just received 29 new
messages. I do use my gmail account for this list as well.
I remember this happening not long ago and thought it was just a matter of
time before things were up to speed again.
John H.

5) From: Jim Anderson
Same here. I got one yesterday and 18 today.
Jim
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Ken B  wrote:
<Snip>
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6) From: denis bordeleau
it happens to me regularly and i still feel comfy with that, db
 
--- En date de : Lun, 17.8.09, Sweet Maria's Coffee  a écrit :
De: Sweet Maria's Coffee 
Objet: Re: [Homeroast] What can be done to make this listserv run better?
À: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this list=
, available athttp://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
Date: lundi 17 Août 2009, 12 h 23
Hi Mike, I checked just now and your account was set to 'moderation'... to =
my knowledge this occurs with new accounts (not the case here) and with ema=
il accounts bouncing messages only. Should be fine now.
Just email us if you every have a problem
info
Best,
Derek
<Snip>
fternoon.  In fact, I made a post early Friday afternoon and it also won'=
t appear until Monday.  I know I am not the only one this is happening to=
 as I only got about a dozen posts all weekend and this was above average.=
  I have written to Derek and was told that my ISP was bouncing messages =
and that caused me to automatically be put into the moderate queue.  He h=
as manually overridden this and put me back into the non-moderated category=
 but it only lasts about a week.  When this first started last fall, seve=
ral people suggested getting a Gmail account which I did.  This solved th=
e problem until about two months ago when it began again. I see that some o=
f the people who get through on the weekends use Gmail, so they can't be bo=
uncing all of their accounts.  About a month ago, I reactivated my old ac=
count and kept the Gmail account to see if different messages were delivered
 by the two accounts.  So far,
<Snip>
<Snip>
 case.  I know that Derek has more important jobs than babysitting the li=
stserv so I can't ask him for help again.  Besides, it does not last, any=
way. Does anyone have any ideas?  If those of us that are in this positio=
n try to comment or answer a question, the subject has been changed by the =
time our posts get through, so what is the point of posting?  I feel left=
 out and I am sure that I am not the only one. Sorry for the rant.
<Snip>
<Snip>
ee.com
<Snip>
ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
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7) From: Bob Hazen
I don't think it's going to better any time soon.  In fact, the list seems 
to be dying a slow death.  I think SM's interest is with the forum not the 
list.  They interact with the posters over there far more than they do here. 
Derek has helped me get off moderation before.  He's been very responsive, 
but the list is pretty well choked down when the posts are delayed so long. 
This has been going on for quite a while, sorry to say.
Bob

8) From: Andy Thomas
There is usually much less list traffic on weekends, so take that into acco=
unt. I guess people have important things to do when they are not working :=
-)
From: Bob Hazen 
To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this list,=
 available athttp://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 9:05:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] What can be done to make this listserv run better?
I don't think it's going to better any time soon.  In fact, the list seem=
s to be dying a slow death.  I think SM's interest is with the forum not =
the list.  They interact with the posters over there far more than they d=
o here. Derek has helped me get off moderation before.  He's been very re=
sponsive, but the list is pretty well choked down when the posts are delaye=
d so long. This has been going on for quite a while, sorry to say.
Bob

9) From: Allon Stern
On Aug 18, 2009, at 12:05 AM, "Bob Hazen"   
wrote:
<Snip>
Sad to say, but I agree.
Forums are annoying.
-
allon
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10) From: Edward Bourgeois
So are some saying Tom, Maria and crew are neglecting this list? I
don't believe this at all. This list is just one of so MANY "FREE"
services they provide. To hear such complaints is really saddening.
patience is the companion to wisdom,
Ed
On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 4:41 AM, Allon Stern wrote:
<Snip>
eems
<Snip>
 the
<Snip>
 here.
<Snip>
ive,
<Snip>
ng.
<Snip>
ee.com
<Snip>
-- =
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
Amherst MA.http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/Homeroast mailing list
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11) From: Mike Chester
In no way did I mean to belittle this list or our fine hosts that provide it 
for us. I started this thread because I have been having trouble with my 
account being put into moderation mode by the listserv software and seeing 
this also happen to other long time listers.  It was not a complaint (Derek 
has been very helpful in correcting this several times.  Many thanks to 
him.)  What I was asking was if someone might know why this was happening. 
I know why there is a dearth of messages on the weekends and a flood on 
Monday.  Many post go into the moderate queue and since SM is closed on the 
weekends, they stay there until cleared for release on Monday.  My concern 
is that on Mondays, I see posts from long time members who should not be 
moderated any longer.  I assume that they have been put into moderation for 
the same reason that I have - The software believes that our ISPs are 
bouncing messages.  I am not sure that this is the case as I don't have this 
problem with groups hosted on Yahoo and Google.  I think that the problem is 
with the listserv software that SM is using or the hosting service.  It 
would be in all of our best interest if this could be resolved.  Since I am 
sure that we have some people on this list that know a lot more about these 
things than I do, I was hoping that someone would offer a helpful 
suggestion.  Nothing can be gained by throwing around blame.
Mike Chester

12) From: Edward Bourgeois
Mike
You  just stated a situation you were having with this list, which is
a good thing for our hosts to be aware of. It was the "some" who came
to conclusions that I don't and I believe most wouldn't agree to be
true.
Ed
On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 1:14 PM, Mike Chester wrote:
<Snip>
 it
<Snip>
erek
<Snip>
ng. I
<Snip>
 the
<Snip>
ern
<Snip>
 for
<Snip>
 this
<Snip>
em is
<Snip>
I am
<Snip>
se
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t,
<Snip>
r?
<Snip>
e:
<Snip>
ms
<Snip>
he
<Snip>
e,
<Snip>
fee.com
<Snip>
ee.com
<Snip>
ee.com
<Snip>
-- =
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
Amherst MA.http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/Homeroast mailing list
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13) From: Bob Hazen
Umm...  There's more to it than that.  If one looks at the "sent" and 
"received" email timestamps, it's easy to see all the stuff collected from 
Friday afternoon through the weekend that is released about 9 am Monday when 
somebody (probably Derek, I'd guess) frees the hostages.  It seems to be 
address specific.  I'm lucky enough to have my stuff come through on the 
weekends.   Other folks are always held up.  This clogging really hampers an 
active discussion, IMNHO.
Bob

14) From: Bob Hazen
I'm not typically one to "me too" to a post, but....  Me too!  You said it 
way better that I can.
I do appreciate this list.  It has taught me a great deal.  I certainly know 
it's a free service, but it must also benefit SM's too with increased 
business.  No, I sure don't begrudge them that.  Rather, I want to see their 
business flourish as they show the highest standards of integrity and 
customer service.  And they provide great beans.  I only think that if the 
list would work as it should without a need to pester Derek it would benefit 
SM's and the rest of us.
Bob
<Snip>
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15) From: Jamiedolan
What is done on many lists as they grow is to allow experianced active  
members to become administrators on the list.  This allows a select  
trusted group in addition to the list owner to approve and reject  
messages.  Once a active maling list has a good core group of  
administrators (often made up of some of the lists most active  
members)  going, the message approval delay is rarely more than a few  
hours.
Jamie
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16) From: Rich
And when this happens you have the beginnings of a clique and the list 
dies from the lack of fresh posters.  Same thing happens to a good forum 
when you start adding moderators.
The problem with the bounces is a listserv software issue.  The listserv 
would require programming to send messages spread out in time to the 
same receiving point.  Every major ISP has mail server rules that will 
start bouncing messages from a given IP if it sees too many incoming 
messages in a short period of time. If you do not believe this just call 
them up and get the real tech on the line.  It is the only way to combat 
the flood of spam.
Jamiedolan wrote:
<Snip>
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17) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
This is definitely an option, Jamie. If there was someone else who 
wanted to look at approvals as well as us, especially on the 
weekends, it would help.
If you are familiar with a sophisticated maillist software, let us 
know. Listservs are primitive and so are the controls on the back 
end. We use Mailman, a GNU open source offering, and I haven't heard 
of anything better. Ideas?
Tom
<Snip>
-- 
-Tom
"Great coffee comes from little roasters" - Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting
               Thompson & Maria -http://www.sweetmarias.com     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - info_at_sweetmarias.com
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18) From: Jamie Dolan
<Snip>
HI Tom;
There are a number of good options I know of.  Are you looking for
something you can host on your own server?
Have you ever looked at using Yahoo Groups free mailing list hosting?
It allows multiple administrators and supports very large lists.  One
very active list I am on has over 10,000 members with nearly all the
members moderated.  Messages to the list are delivered very quickly
once approved or almost instant delivery when sent from un-moderated
addresses.
If you want to run something yourself, Let me know what platform you
using and I'll make some suggestions.  I've used a couple different
commercial packages over the years.
Jamie
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19) From: Jamie Dolan
<Snip>
es
<Snip>
n you
<Snip>
I am a member of several mailing lists and forums that employ a system
of multiple moderators as I've described.  I've seen no signs of abuse
by any of the moderators.  There main purpose on the lists I am on is
to keep the list on topic and keep out spam.  On this list, I suspect
the main purpose for them would be to keep spam off the list (which is
very likely the reason for delays in postings, messages pending admin
approval to make sure they are not spam).
<Snip>
This is a very basic function of nearly all mailing list software packages.
Jamie
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20) From: Dave Bush
I have to put in a good word for Yahoo Groups mailing list hosting. I've been a member of several and it seems to work great.
 
On Wednesday, August 19, 2009, at 04:21PM, "Jamie Dolan"  wrote:
<Snip>
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21) From: Doug Hoople
Actually, more to the point, an unmoderated list runs the risk of getting
trolled to death, and I remember at least one list that was actually
sabotaged out of existence.  So I'd say that moderators are totally
essential to keeping a list on topic and the trolling to a minimum.
Doug
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22) From: Justin Schwarz
I really enjoy this list, I think the moderation process chokes down  
on the flow of conversation especially on weekends.  I have posted  
before and by the time my post was released the thread had gone OT and  
my comment was hardly relevant.  It is kind of frustrating because  
conversations can't continue quickly like they used to.
-Justin
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23) From: Allon Stern
On Aug 19, 2009, at 6:31 PM, Doug Hoople wrote:
<Snip>
I'm on a number of unmoderated lists which have no such problems.
-
allon
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24) From: Tom Ulmer
Your point is noted. To me this is off topic as it has nothing to do with
roasting coffee at home.
Some years back this list was similar to an electronic coffee shop of sorts
and was quite interesting. There were many personalities and caffeinated
discussions. At times there was unruly behavior though never boring.
My opinion is the list participation, whether because of moderation or the
influx of easily offended personalities, has become quite the repository for
mostly muffled conversation. Of course the progression may have been by
design. If the complaint department was pointed my direction - well patience
for the whiny has never suited me.
A troll will only disrupt until moderated, spirited conversation will never
please everyone, and peevish folks will continue to complain.

25) From: Doug Hoople
"I really enjoy this list, I think the moderation process chokes down on the
flow of conversation especially on weekends."
A totally valid point that has more to do with the mechanism of moderation
than the fact of moderation.
Being on the weekend moderation queue was really frustrating, and I'm glad
I'm not on it anymore. But I understand how that feels, especially when
things are just starting to get interesting on a Friday afternoon.
Doug
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26) From: Doug Hoople
"Some years back this list was similar to an electronic coffee shop of sorts
and was quite interesting."
"My opinion is the list participation, whether because of moderation or the
influx of easily offended personalities, has become quite the repository for
mostly muffled conversation."
I wasn't around "some years back," but it's not my impression that anyone's
changing their submissions because of worries about a censorious moderator.
Other than to remind us of who's sponsoring this site, which is totally
appropriate, and to remind us to append OT to our subject lines, also
totally appropriate, I can't recall a moderator quelling a single
conversation that had spun out of control.
As a member of the arriviste, carpet-bagging "influx," I have to assume that
I'm part of this new, whiny contingent of delicate flowers that's incapable
of spirited, free-wheeling discussion, and apologize to all of those who
feel hemmed in by my presence here.
Doug
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27) From: Lynne
I've been away from my email for awhile - my computer would not connect to
the internet and I really thought it had died on me. Fiddled around w/it and
got it to work again... so I'm getting into this conversation late.
I belong to several Yahoo groups and I want to add a big negative - to begin
with, my spam box is FULL of spam from these groups. I really hate them, but
I stay because of the validity of the groups themselves. In fact, I prefer
to set them to no messages. (They also do something with the formatting that
makes it very difficult to trim posts - might seem like something minor, but
it drives me nuts).
Recently, I also got a message fr one administrator that Yahoo is having
problems w/messages getting posted, w/no signs of that having been resolved.
I haven't had any experience w/Google groups, but I have a feeling they'd be
better.
Did I mention how much I hate Yahoo groups?... :O
Lynne
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28) From: Tom Ulmer
"As a member of the arriviste, carpet-bagging "influx," I have to assume
that
I'm part of this new, whiny contingent of delicate flowers that's incapable
of spirited, free-wheeling discussion, and apologize to all of those who
feel hemmed in by my presence here."
Ha. Inclusion to this petite bourgeoisie is precipitate to apology.
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29) From: Ira
At 12:47 PM 8/20/2009, you wrote:
<Snip>
Mostly that's lazy moderators. if you want reasonable yahoo groups 
the moderators need to approve every person who wants to join and 
then all the spambots fail. I help moderate a couple of Yahoo groups 
and we do that and there is no problem with spam ever. Of course the 
one's that don't do that are hopeless.
Ira
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30) From: Ira
At 01:58 PM 8/20/2009, you wrote:
<Snip>
And lazy might be the wrong word, it just might be a lack of 
understanding, but letting anyone join without approval is a recipe for spam.
Ira
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31) From: Jamie Dolan
<Snip>
I agree this is true, 0 spam in a properly moderated group.
I also agree with lynne that there is a formatting issue when
trimming, with yahoo groups messages if you reply from a basic mail
program such as the one that is on the Ipod.  This does make it almost
impossible for me to properly trim the reply to a message when using
my Ipod to reply.  The work around is to use the web interface to
reply when using a mobile computer like the Ipod.
Jamie
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32) From: Rick Copple
Jamie Dolan wrote:
<Snip>
I think it helps if you set your Yahoo options to plain text. That's how 
I get mine.
-- 
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