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Topic: dark v. light physical properties (17 msgs / 456 lines)
1) From: Allon Stern
On Oct 11, 2009, at 10:37 AM, Doug Hoople wrote:
<Snip>
Interesting. I had noticed that lighter roasts tend to extract quicker  
on the same grind setting on the espresso machine, and that dark  
roasts are tougher to run through the Aeropress than light roasts. I  
had attributed this to the absorbency of the bean structure, thinking  
maybe that the darker roasts swell more when they absorb, but I guess  
that the ground structure being different between the two could also  
make the difference.
Maybe I should grind some light & dark at the same grind setting and  
compare them under the microscope.
-
allon
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2) From: Joseph Robertson
Allon,
One major factor here is the fact that the darker you roast the more oils
are released to the outside. This will play a major roll in extraction time.
Under a microscope you should see what I am talking about. I'm anxious to
hear others thoughts on this as well.
JoeR
On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 5:00 AM, Allon Stern  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
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3) From: Bob Hazen
<Snip>
I have noticed another characteristic of light vs. dark roasts when brewed 
as drip coffee.  With a very fresh, darker roast, the outgassing creates 
rather large bubbles.  The bubbles float the grounds to the surface and its 
a bit of a hassle to sink them.  A lighter roast results in a foamy 
outgassing akin to the microfoam in some folks' lattes.  The grounds don't 
float to the top.  I suspect the "floatiness" and bubble size are directly 
related to the difference in grounds density at light or dark roast levels.
Bob
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4) From: Joseph Robertson
Right on Bob, the closer to ash we get the more air born the coffee wants to
be.
The further from coffee we get, to my taste.
JoeR
On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Bob Hazen  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
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5) From: Doug Hoople
"Right on Bob, the closer to ash we get the more air born the coffee wants
to
be.The further from coffee we get, to my taste."
Not to start a flame war, but there's a very long distance that separates FC
from ash, and a lot of interesting coffee flavors in that stretch, too,
flavors that lighter roasts are incapable of capturing.
The opposite is, of course, true, that the lighter roasts have flavors that
the darker roasts obscure and/or lose.
It's a spectrum.
Doug
On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 9:14 AM, Joseph Robertson wrote:
<Snip>
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6) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
You have to introduce the side-effects of roast, namely, how a coffee 
grinds based on the degree of roast. Tamping and using a pressurized 
brewing method has further characteristics that brewed coffee does 
not. Then there is the rampant off-gassing of fresh roasts, more with 
lighter roasts than darker. If you steep a very fresh light roast in 
a french press you compensate a bit and can basically force the water 
and coffee together and use a longer steep time. With drip brew like 
chemex, you can't compensate for offgassing. In espresso you have a 
less dense, more compactible ground coffee in the dark roasts, but 
also more water permeable and with less C02. With light roasts, less 
permeability, more gas, less compaction. Ay - lots of variables. You 
really need to isolate the particular variable you want to discuss - 
if it is the permeability of the coffee structure, definitely dark 
roast is easier to saturate with water because 2nd crack has 
shattered the cellulose structure of many of the "pockets" in the 
coffee and water can pass through easier ...
<Snip>
-- 
-Tom
"Great coffee comes from little roasters" - Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting
               Thompson & Maria -http://www.sweetmarias.com     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - info_at_sweetmarias.com
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7) From: Jim Gundlach
The only coffee I won a contest with had a blend of the same bean  
roasted at three different levels.  The different flavors really  
complemented each other quite well.
     pecan jim
On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:47 PM, Doug Hoople wrote:
<Snip>
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8) From: raymanowen
Melange, the cause of past semantic trouble, is "the same bean roasted at...
different levels. The different flavors really complemented each other quite
well."
The screen printers' Blend would seem to be an impossible flavor phenomenon-
getting distinct and separate flavors in the cup. The Costa Rica Naranjo
Caracol pb/ Mexico Chiapas pre roast blend, C+ roast. The last beans of the
20-day post roast sample were hard frozen in a flattened (mechanically
evacuated) Zip-Loc overnight.
Was also the first brew using a disc of filter mesh, cut to fit on top of
the packed coffee in the 2X basket. The final tamp places the mesh- keeps
the coffee grounds from migrating up into the impossible passages in the
group assembly. Flavor took a giant leap for this coffee fool.
Pull a back flush and see if that is your desired pristine brewing water.
Baristae assume they're pulling shots with clear water- "Must be, can't see
anything to the contrary." Who's looking? It is self-evident why more than a
few of them prefer the chocolate malt drinks to straight shots.
Zero tolerance for grinding directly into the filter basket instead of the
damn doser, where the fine grounds rapidly stale... No matter how rapidly
shots are being brewed, direct grinding is always better than coffee
recently staled in the doser.
Fresh and pristine clean trumps "good enough to sell," so that most people
won't send it back. There's a reason espresso = poor experience in my mind-
It Always Was. What an evil waste of coffee beans.
Destroyed by excess roasting in a different Time Zone. Staled in the doser
and brewed with water that might have mouse droppings and insect bodies in
it, on close inspection. But who's looking?
The Vietnamese coffee filter uses increasingly compressed grounds as they
initially soak. The pressure is backed off as the grounds expand, to
maintain the literal drip rate.
Cheers, Mabuhay, Iechyd da -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?
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9) From: Allon Stern
On Oct 16, 2009, at 3:04 AM, raymanowen wrote:
<Snip>
Unless you keep your doser clear of grounds, and only grind/dose a  
shot at a time.
Yeah, they're a pain to keep clean, but they do help break up clumps,  
if your grinder is prone to clumping.
<Snip>
A good point, and a tip for those unfamiliar with the method - when  
brewing in a vietnamese dripper, do not compress the grounds. Screw  
down the top plate until contact, don't crank down on the grinds. I've  
only seen dark vietnamese coffee; I wonder how a light roast would do  
with that extraction method - I suspect that the grounds may expand  
less/less rapidly, requiring a tweak to the top plate. Interesting  
thought.
-
allon
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10) From: Doug Hoople
"Destroyed by excess roasting in a different Time Zone. Staled in the doser
and brewed with water that might have mouse droppings and insect bodies in
it, on close inspection. But who's looking?"
You forgot to mention the dust mites, Ray. :-)
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11) From: raymanowen
"Unless you:
[A.] keep your doser clear of grounds, and
[B.] only grind/dose a shot at a time. Yeah,
[C.] they're a pain to keep clean, but they do help
[D.] break up clumps, if your grinder is prone to clumping."
BUFF grinder makes clumps galore. I need a doser? The limit switches would
start/ stop the grinder as if I were running a land-office coffee business.
I lost the doser assembly first thing after the new burrs. I think it was
miswired in the first place...
Let me add this up-
[A'.] A doser collects grounds from the grinder, but you should always keep
it cleared out-
[B'.] If you could clean it out fast enough with each use, it would speed
shot dosing, but-
[C'.] It eliminates the pain of uneven dosing, but it's a pain to use
properly-
[D'.] break up clumps- Hell! At the end of packing and tamping, *I Want a
Big Clump*.
Like elementary sand pile, if you're going to build a sand castle, you have
to make some clumps and do some packing. The grounds in the filter basket
should be packed to maximum density after you have the right grind.
(Less than maximum could be slightly different each time, but maximum =
maximum = maximum. Increment or decrement the grind as needed.)
Say Again, why do you need a Doser?
Cheers, Mabuhay, Iechyd da -RayO, aka Opa!
-- 
Persist in old ways; expect different results - suborn Insanity...
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12) From: Bruce Garley
Which grinders are prone to clumping?
Bruce Garley
Plant Whisperer
San Juan Capistrano, CA
 
Vivir con miedo es como vivir a medias.
 
<Snip>
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13) From: Ira
At 11:33 AM 10/19/2009, you wrote:
<Snip>
I think the right question is, "Which grinders are no prone to 
clumping?"  it's a lot shorter list.
Most hand grinders don't clump, Versalab M3s don't clump. Many 
grinders with dosers clump, but if you constantly thwack the doser 
during the grind, the doser can break up the clumps.
My doserless Rocky grinding for drip one dose at a time and blown 
clean after each dose with the container cap that fits doesn't seem 
to clump but I think it would on an espresso grind.
My Macap M4D grinding for espresso clumps so bad it's almost unusable.
Ira
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14) From: Barry Luterman
An over generalization holds some truth. Namely, a higher priced,burr
grinder, with a doser, will produce less clumping. My Mini and Hybrid both
produce no clumps.
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 9:16 AM, Ira  wrote:
<Snip>
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15) From: Mike Koenig
<Snip>
I like my doser!!
Lets try this little thought experiment:  You have a pile of loose dirt,
with one big dirt clod in it.  You want to make it level by pressing it down
with a board,  but the big dirt clod always seems to keep it from packing
down evenly.  If you press hard enough, you can pack down the dirt clod, but
around the clod,  the dirt doesn't get packed and falls apart easily.   If
you break up the dirt clod with your hands, the problem goes away.
This is exactly what is going on in your portafilter when you have clumps,
and why the doser serves a purpose.  Since you are only putting pressure in
one direction, you can only get "maximum density" if your distribution of
particles is even to begin with.
If dosers were useless, why do so many enlightened baristas still use them,
even though they grind for each shot?  Lots of shops will hot-rod their
espresso machines, but you don't see too many of them chopping off their
dosers.
--mike
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16) From: Joseph Robertson
Barry, yes,
I use a Mazzer SJ w/doser,with my simonelli. What are clumps? <];^)
Pay more and "sometimes" you get more. Some machines are a joy to use over
others. I guess I skipped  upgrade envy phase. I went from Zass to Mazzer
SJ.
JoeR
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Mike Koenig  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
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17) From: raymanowen
"Lets try this little thought experiment:
You have a pile of loose dirt, with one big dirt clod in it.
You want to make it level by pressing it down with a board,  but the big
dirt clod always seems to keep it from packing down evenly.
[Let's make it real- Highway builders have this problem in Spades, every
mile they lay pavement.] The Great Yellow Father in Peoria built some big
machines that made the problems go away. Nobody breaks up dirt clods by hand
or with a shovel, I assure you. Cut and fill with a Dozer, Scraper and a
Motor grader.
If you press hard enough, you can pack down the dirt clod, but around the
clod,  the dirt doesn't get packed and falls apart easily. If you break up
the dirt clod with your hands, the problem goes away." [Good luck with your
Victory Garden]
When the clods are the size of  Volkswagen beetles, Desperately Avoid
breaking them up by hand-
More power to you if you like the doser you have. I didn't like and I no
longer have one.
I've been seriously observing and analyzing espresso brewing equipment and
practices since I started hearing several people make positive references to
this-or-that espresso shot. Several actual discussions took place re: proper
roast, grind and brewing for different origin beans.
Due to my experience of espresso shots from "enlightened baristas" whose
enlightenment included the business axiom- "Profit- Bottom Line." The
espresso shots I paid for  were universally execrable. I didn't realize it,
but the goal of all the barista training must have been to homogenize their
performances. The Stand Outs fail the course, just like Specialty Coffee at
*$. No diploma. No job. It's a job, only a job.
After Terrible Tasting Espresso #2, I thought "That's it, no more of that
yuppie dreckig Scheiße." (+ + Ungood Drink) Then, Hell wouldn't have it- =
my
friend, Carole Sherman started a Jazz venue/ Coffee shop Dec ' 95. "Hey,
Ray, You like espresso?"
"No"
"Try one. You'll like it!"
"OK...........      I Don't."
"I'll add hot water and steam it."
Daz Bog Americano. Couldn't wait for Kenny Walker, Rich Chiaraluce, Mary
Flower and Dale Bruning to play bass, S- A- T sax, vocal, guitar.
Coffee grounds are nothing like cementacious wet clay and Bentonite soil
clods. It's comparing sewer lids and valve springs- both are round metal
things...
If:
"... you are only putting pressure in one direction [ever try to stack
matches?] you can only get "maximum density" if your distribution of
particles is even to begin with..."
Has Poisson's ratio  ceased
to exist?
No? Good.
Every particle of coffee is subject to a resultant strain due to the
pressure exerted on top of the column of coffee in the PF basket. Just after
the coffee grounds are dosed, they could easily be poured right back out of
the basket.
Not so after the grounds are packed and tamped, pressing the "puck" out
against the inside of the basket. Invert the basket and the dry puck stays
put. It prevents water from bypassing the puck. It would not do so if the
puck were loose in the basket. The water would just detour the pesky puck.
During packing and tamping, the coffee column is in motion, and the
particles move in relation to each other on the order of several thousands
of molecules of displacement with respect to each other. There goes the
neighborhood- clumps disintegrate.
Displace an egg shell that much, and you'd better be ready to cook an
omelet.
Cheers, Mabuhay, Iechyd da -RayO, aka Opa!
To achieve, you need thought. You have to know what you are doing and that's
real power.
Ayn Rand
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