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Topic: Brazil Moreninha Formosa Raisin Coffee (23 msgs / 561 lines)
1) From: Bob Hazen
I am sadly nearing the bottom of my fiver of this superb coffee.  I finished a cup about 20 minutes ago and the aftertaste still lingers.  (Yes, I know.  Somebody will suggest it's time to brush my teeth.)  To me, this coffee is akin to an Islay malt whisky.  Smoky, thick, complex; a long aftertaste.  It is, however, missing the phenol of my favorite Islay which is probably a good thing.
Perhaps I missed it, but I haven't seen any discussion about this coffee.  Anybody care to share their experience with it?  Or, how about a similar coffee to try when my stash runs out?http://www.sweetmarias.com/coffee.archive.new.php?country=BrazilBob
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2) From: Doug Hoople
I finished up my Moreninha Formosa Raisin two or three months ago. I loved
it. Come to think of it, I dropped off a "cup-of-the-day" two or three
times, so that tells me how much I liked it.
I recall it being sweet more than smoky, but it was thick and satisfying.
Forgiving to roast, too.
I was sorry to drink the last of it.
Doug
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Bob Hazen  wrote:
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3) From: Barry Luterman
Isn't that the one I hated and swapped 5 pounds with you?
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Doug Hoople  wrote:
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4) From: Tom Ulmer
I enjoyed that one myself. There is another coffee being offered that, I
believe, has similar processing - Brazil Fazenda Vista Alegre Natural Dry.
It came down to a coin flip for me yesterday for this or the Sweet Yellow
and the latter won the toss.

5) From: Doug Hoople
Nope, that was the Brazil Ipanema Tree DP, which I also liked, but not as
much as the Moreninha Formosa Raisin.
Doug
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Barry Luterman wrote:
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6) From: Bob Hazen
Anticipation. . . .  Just a few days ago I received an Anti- Stash Reduction 
Shipment from SM's.  It included a fiver of the Brazil Fazenda Vista Alegre 
Natural Dry, but I have yet to try it.  I guess I'll just have to roast some 
this afternoon.
Bob

7) From: John Borella
I've still got 4lbs of the Formosa Raisin & 3lbs of the Ipanema left in the 
freezer. I've enjoyed both as S/O espresso but haven't really done much in 
the way of "brew" roasts.
 How dark were you roasting the Formosa Raisin for brewing? Vac pot?
John B.
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8) From: Bob Hazen
I take it to FC+ or FC, but haven't tried lighter roasts.  I use P2 in my 
Behmor and stretch the roast out to 16:00 minutes or so.
I use a Technivorm or Chemex for nearly all my brewing.  Haven't had much 
luck with a vac pot.  My vac pot experiments with various coffees and grinds 
have yielded a typically thin brew IMNHO; probably what some people term a 
"clean" cup.  I prefer heavier, brooding, thick coffees so I figure my vac 
pot will continue to sit on the shelf until the experimental wild-hair 
resurfaces.
Bob
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9) From: John Borella
What are you using for a coffee/water ratio in the vac pot?
John B.

10) From: Doug Hoople
+2 for wondering your brewing ratios. I brewed Chemex for years, and gave it
up once I discovered the fuller cup and deeper oils in the vacpot cup.
Coming from presspot, I could understand a thinner cup, but coming from a
Chemex, I'm a bit puzzled.
Doug
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Bob Hazen  wrote:
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11) From: Doug Hoople
Oops. Hit the send key too soon.
Also wondering how long you steep, etc.
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Doug Hoople  wrote:
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12) From: Bob Hazen
Thanks for asking, guys.  Could be I'm missing out on good vac pot coffee. 
I'm "all ears."
I use a Yama with a Cona rod.  Didn't like the filter that came with the 
Yama and when its spring broke, I went to the Cona rod.  I've fooled with 
various grinds, but found that which I use for drip to be about the best.  I 
use 38-39 g of coffee in a full pot, which holds around 22 oz of water.
I bring the water in the pot to a near boil on the stove and then insert the 
loaded funnel.  I allow the water to go "up top" at which point I sink the 
floating grounds with the back of a spoon.  I don't do any stirring.  I let 
it gurgle for 60 sec and remove the assembly from the heat.  I goes back 
down in a couple of minutes.
This method seems to be consistent with what (I think) I've read.  I'd be 
interested in any tips on how to improve my results.  It's quite interesting 
to me that a vac pot could produce a thicker cup than a Chemex.
Bob
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13) From: John Borella
With my 5c Hario (20-22oz) I use 42g of coffee ground a little finer then 
drip & typically steep 75-80 seconds after stirring in the grounds. After I 
cut the heat I break the crust with a quick stir & let it draw down. I'm 
using a cloth filter & I'd guess that the stirring wouldn't work well with a 
glass rod. Extend the steep time another 20 seconds & see how it tastes.
John B.

14) From: Doug Hoople
Hi Bob,
Drip grind is about right, not too coarse, not too fine. And making sure
that the grounds are completely wetted out is right, too. Wise that you
don't do any more stirring than that, especially if you're dropping the
grounds in after the water's gone North. Stirring is a completely different
beast with a glass rod than what it is with cloth filters.
And the amount of coffee you're using seems reasonable. I actually use less
than that, so you should be getting fuller coffee than I'm getting.
The one area I'd focus on is the total amount of steep time. 120 seconds of
steeping before the start of drawdown seems like a better bet than 60 if
you're doing a post-rise grounds drop. And your drawdown time should be
anywhere from 60 to 120 seconds. You might want to try to get a tighter grip
on your actual drawdown times for comparing results here on the board.
My best pots came from a 120-second steep, followed by a 90-second drawdown.
As for the vacpot yielding a fuller cup than the Chemex, the intuitive
prediction would put the onus on the other cup, wouldn't you think? With the
Chemex, by definition, the filter is retaining all the grounds and a fair
amount of the oils. With the vacpot, I can taste oils that I can't taste in
my Chemex brews. Am I imagining this? Who knows? Maybe. But that's what I'm
tasting.
In any event, neither the Chemex nor the vacpot will get top honors in the
"heavy cup" competition. Those will have to go to the presspots and
espressos of the world.
Best of luck, and keep us posted.
Doug
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Bob Hazen  wrote:
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15) From: Yakster
Never tried Chemex (yet), but I do get visible oils with vac pot that
are missing with paper filters (CCD, AP).
With the vac pot you can theoretically control the contact time to
customize the extraction, the variable outside one's control being
drawdown time.
-Chris
On 11/24/09, Doug Hoople  wrote:
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16) From: Doug Hoople
Two things just occurred to me.
1) You can't control your drawdown time directly, but you can observe and
predict it. The ideal total contact time appears to be somewhere between 3
and 4 minutes. Also, all your drawdown times should take 2 minutes or less.
If they're taking any longer, then you're getting stalls, and you should
attempt to correct that. I'm getting between 70 and 90 seconds reliably on
my Yama 8-cup.
2) The grind can make a difference. Once everything else is under control,
it might be interesting to go a few clicks in either direction on your
grinder to see if there's a change in the cup. I've found better cups in
slightly coarser grinds, but not too coarse. YMMV, and YTDV (your taste DOES
vary) which is why you should explore in both directions on your grinder.
Doug
On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:51 PM, Yakster  wrote:
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17) From: John Borella
Doug & I differ on the ideal total contact time. If I used anywhere near 4 
minutes in my Hario 5c I'd be dumping the coffee down the drain. Average 
total contact time for me is 2:25-2:50 tops for a fully extracted cup.
John B.

18) From: Doug Hoople
"If I used anywhere near 4 minutes in my Hario 5c I'd be dumping the coffee
down the drain. Average total contact time for me is 2:25-2:50 tops for a
fully extracted cup"
My times are definitely between 3 and 4 minutes total contact time, but
probably closer to 3 these days. I'd love to blind compare John's 2:25 vs.
his 4, because I can't imagine the 4 being that bad.
It might be based on grinding. Grinding fine would lead to overextraction
more quickly.
It might also be water temp. I've found that I can overextract on contact if
the water temp is 210F or higher, and that running the whole of the steep
time above 200F (which is still within the "optimal" 195-205F range) invites
overextraction much quicker. The temp in my funnel before dropping in the
grounds is in the 194-196F range, and rarely gets above 200F at any time,
even with the heat burst for the final "stir" with the vapor column.
Hmmm... curious. As usual, YMMV, and John is quite definite about what he's
tasting, so I wouldn't discount him.
Doug
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 5:57 AM, John Borella wrote:
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19) From: John Borella
I think it tastes over extracted when I"ve gone 90+ seconds of steep time 
instead of 75-80. I use 45-50 second steep times with my NCA 3. Brewing at 
210*!! Not me, I drop in the grounds when the water temp settles down to 
197* & I see an approx 2*F temp increase over the steep time as the 
crust/bloom holds in the temp. Frankly I've been very surprised by the long 
steep times I've seen posted here as my times are right in line with all the 
vac pot info on Coffeesnobs & some other euro coffee forums. I'll also note 
that I am seldom brewing with any beans roasted past FC.
John B.

20) From: Bob Hazen
OK, guys!  You've inspired me!  I'm off to the kitchen to dust off the vac 
pot and experiment.
Bob
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21) From: Doug Hoople
"OK, guys!  You've inspired me!  I'm off to the kitchen to dust off the vac
pot and experiment."
Thought you might. You wouldn't be a proper SM poster if you could endure
this kind of debate without a response! :)
Doug
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Bob Hazen  wrote:
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22) From: Doug Hoople
"I think it tastes over extracted when I"ve gone 90+ seconds of steep time
instead of 75-80. I use 45-50 second steep times with my NCA 3. Brewing at
210*!! Not me, I drop in the grounds when the water temp settles down to
197* & I see an approx 2*F temp increase over the steep time as the
crust/bloom holds in the temp. Frankly I've been very surprised by the long
steep times I've seen posted here as my times are right in line with all the
vac pot info on Coffeesnobs & some other euro coffee forums."
Actually, and also frankly, I'm surprised to read that there's any real
authoritative and precise procedure with precise timings anywhere vis-a-vis
vacpots, although I'd read them with interest.
In the most common general procedure I was aware of, it's 1) grounds in the
funnel, 2) water north, 3) steep for a minute or so, and 4) drawdown for
about a minute or two.
Reversing 1 & 2 was the common variant, and, as far as I knew, there was no
good reason to change the overall contact time, which was anywhere from 3-4
minutes.
We all know what we know and taste what we taste. I may be totally deluding
myself, but I don't get a sense that the pot is going off until the overal
contact time runs 4-1/2 or 5 minutes, meaning, in my case, slow drawdowns.
To be honest, I don't taste much difference between the 3 minute contact pot
and the 4 minute contact pot. And, to my taste, if the total contact time
goes lower than 3 minutes, the resulting cup is underextracted.
I'm reporting what I taste in the cup after a lot of fairly careful
experimentation. I don't claim to be an authority, nor do I have a high
commission backing my methods. But I do know what I taste in the cup, and
that's how I've calibrated my method.
The one thing I've found consistently fascinating on this list, though, is
just how much variation there is in both taste and approach to coffeemaking,
and far be it from me to tell anyone that their favorite cup is wrong!
Doug
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 1:33 PM, John Borella wrote:
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23) From: denis bordeleau
My very dear Doug,      There is no debate here.   The last 3=
 lines of the terminal paragraph of your last post tell all about it.  3=
  words came above the surface:  Fascinating,  Variation,   Favor=
ite.   Thus, let*s each other be ourselves but only with the best bagag=
e of information  one can grasp in this wisdomful Sweet Maria*s  Homero=
aster List in such a way that at least being fascinated, being ourselves wi=
thout any shyness and having different favorite tastes than  the robotic =
a la mode majoritarian democratic and unmarginal conduct,  will rather be=
 instead  based on the best knowledge, R & D (research and discovery) of =
this not so lonely coffee passion path that we all go through and enjoy wit=
h the help of others.   May God Bless all of Us. even the ones who dese=
rve it.                 Denis       =
--- En date de : Mer, 25.11.09, Doug Hoople  a éc=
rit :
De: Doug Hoople 
Objet: Re: [Homeroast] Brazil Moreninha Formosa Raisin Coffee
À: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this list=
,  available athttp://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
Date: mercredi 25 Novembre 2009, 20 h 16
"I think it tastes over extracted when I"ve gone 90+ seconds of steep time
instead of 75-80. I use 45-50 second steep times with my NCA 3. Brewing at
210*!! Not me, I drop in the grounds when the water temp settles down to
197* & I see an approx 2*F temp increase over the steep time as the
crust/bloom holds in the temp. Frankly I've been very surprised by the long
steep times I've seen posted here as my times are right in line with all the
vac pot info on Coffeesnobs & some other euro coffee forums."
Actually, and also frankly, I'm surprised to read that there's any real
authoritative and precise procedure with precise timings anywhere vis-a-vis
vacpots, although I'd read them with interest.
In the most common general procedure I was aware of, it's 1) grounds in the
funnel, 2) water north, 3) steep for a minute or so, and 4) drawdown for
about a minute or two.
Reversing 1 & 2 was the common variant, and, as far as I knew, there was no
good reason to change the overall contact time, which was anywhere from 3-4
minutes.
We all know what we know and taste what we taste. I may be totally deluding
myself, but I don't get a sense that the pot is going off until the overal
contact time runs 4-1/2 or 5 minutes, meaning, in my case, slow drawdowns.
To be honest, I don't taste much difference between the 3 minute contact pot
and the 4 minute contact pot. And, to my taste, if the total contact time
goes lower than 3 minutes, the resulting cup is underextracted.
I'm reporting what I taste in the cup after a lot of fairly careful
experimentation. I don't claim to be an authority, nor do I have a high
commission backing my methods. But I do know what I taste in the cup, and
that's how I've calibrated my method.
The one thing I've found consistently fascinating on this list, though, is
just how much variation there is in both taste and approach to coffeemaking,
and far be it from me to tell anyone that their favorite cup is wrong!
Doug
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 1:33 PM, John Borella wr=
ote:
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