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Topic: espresso roast profiles (20 msgs / 464 lines)
1) From: michael brown
Okay, so i know that espresso is a beverage and not a coffee or color.  I've had some great S.O. espressos around City+.  Looking at Tom's Espresso Tip's pages i see that too light of a roast can produce a pale crema which i sometimes also get.  So my question for discussion is, to what degree of roast do you take your for-espresso beans?  I refuse to burn my beans and take them into the black, oily region.  Tried that, not doing it again.  As i said, i've had some decent SO's from City+ all the way to the first couple of pops of the 2nd crack.  But a lot of my espressos DO end up with a pale crema and not that dark brown/amber color i'm seeking.  Thanks!
Michael B
b'ham, AL
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2) From: Yakster
I've been playing with City+ to Full City, but I use a slower profile like
P3 on a Behmor for espresso.
I'm just starting espresso roasts, though, so I'm no expert.
-Chris
On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 2:51 PM, michael brown  wrote:
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3) From: Greg Hollrigel
I've been playing mostly around FC/FC+ (just at the very beginning of 2nd
crack).  This has worked well for many beans in the past.  However, with
Treble Response and Waw Bukan Main, I have not had good results, even in
view of Tom's recommendations.  Basically, the crema is very thin and
dissipates fast, even when I get nice tiger striping.  After reading some
comments on Behmor roasting for the Workshop blends, I decided to roast a
bit longer into 2nd crack (about 10-20 seconds).  I have a batch of Workshop
#7 and SO Sumatra that I roasted like that ready to pull for shots
tomorrow.  So I've got my fingers crossed.
I've also played around with P2, P3, and P4 quite a bit.  With P2, I get
more divots.  I've been very happy with P3 and P4, eventhough the time to
1st crack is quite a bit longer (around 13 minutes).
But, I think FC should work for most - maybe work on extending the time
between 1st and 2nd, and aim to end, just before 2nd crack starts.
These are just my personal thoughts/preferences.
Greg
On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Yakster  wrote:
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4) From: michael brown
I've been going back and forth between P1A and P3C.  With P1A it seems, no matter what the bean, i get 3min between 1st and 2nd and can get to 1C in about 12-13min with about 12-14oz.  P3C seems to be more sensitive to bean differences both with time to 1C and time between 1C and 2C.  
I've been playing with P2B in a way very different from what others have suggested (others like to use it to drop the temp between 1C and 2C).  With P2B i like to bring the time down to 2min before starting, like i do with most the other profiles, then max it out after starting.  This has given me a LONG LONG time between 1C and 2C.  I do this when i want something around City to City+.  It's sometimes taken up to 5-6min to get to 2C so i don't use that if i want to get to 2C.  It seems after that much time it looses that sweet spot you get when to get to 2C faster.  But i like to use that P2B as i described earlier for Ethiopians and Guatemalans that i don't want too dark.
Oh, something i posted last week sometime (whatever day's cup) really amazed me as an espresso blend.  It was a Columbian roasted probably 10sec into 2C, and an Ethiopian that never got close to 2C.  I haphazardly blended a handful of each into the hopper and was blown away.  I need to write that down before i forget it!
But i mostly stick with P1 and P3 when roasting for espresso.  I've also ordered more Grindz and a replacement burr for my Virtuoso and some descaling solution for the espresso machine just to cover all angles.
Michael B
 
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5) From: michael brown
I forgot to add Greg, let us know how those shots pull!
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6) From: Allon Stern
On Jan 1, 2010, at 5:51 PM, michael brown  wrote:
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...
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Why are you seeking a color, not a flavor? Are you going to marvel at  
your shot's good looks or are you going to drink the thing? Or is the  
flavor lacking, and you think the color is an indicator?
-
allon
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7) From: Mike Koenig
Depends heavily on the bean,  most of my roasts for espresso lately are in
the FC / FC+ range, often stopping just before 2nd crack, but I usually rely
on Tom's roast notes.  I typically try for about 4-5 mintues between 1st
crack and end of roast (regardless of how dark) if I'm roasting something
specifically for espresso (usuallly it's Tom's blends).   This was some
advice from miKe, and my shots have improved considerably since I've started
doing that.
Dont worry about crema - it's overrated and tastes like dreck anyway.
--mike
On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 5:51 PM, michael brown  wrote:
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8) From: Barry Luterman
A few months ago someone posted a u tube video about the taste of crema
ruining a shot.
Does any one still have the URL? It might be useful for us to see it again.
On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 4:23 AM, Mike Koenig  wrote:
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9) From: Yakster
I think that this video from James Hoffmann documenting the Coffee
Collective in Denmark skimming the crema off is the source:http://www.jimseven.com/2009/07/06/video-1-crema/I normally leave the crema on, myself.
-Chris
On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Barry Luterman  wrote:
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10) From: Barry Luterman
Yes that's it. For a while I was doing it and noticed an improvement. Now
when I remember I just remove a little and stir. It seems,to me, just
stirring the shot improves it. Anyone else removing the crema?
On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Yakster  wrote:
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11) From: Jeff Kilpatrick
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It depends on the coffee.  Some shots have a ton of great flavor in the
crema.  Sometimes skimming removes a lot bitterness, other times it just
diminishes the experience.  After that James Hoffmann video, I skimmed every
shot and it took a level-headed friend to set me straight.
-jeff
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12) From: Tom Ulmer
I will sometimes roast lighter for espresso with thoughts of cutting the
shot with steamed cream or as a component in a blend. Even after two weeks
of rest most single origin coffees I've tried do not work as espresso for my
tastes. mcKoffee mentioned having some success with lighter roasts but I do
not recall the particulars. 
In my opinion being able to minimize the amount of crema production during
the pull is a great advantage of a manual lever.

13) From: Yakster
I've been trying to improve my crema on my new-to-me La Peppina lever,
but I realize some of my shots with poor crema taste pretty good.
Higher temps and an assisted spring help with the crema.
I spent my sister's SM gift cert on 5# liquid amber, 1# ea. #7 & #8
workshop, and 1# donkey (night shots) and it'll be good to get back
home for espresso. Thanks, sis.
-Chris (yakster)
P.s. Apologies for not being able to cut the qouted thread on my
mobile Gmail. ,
On 1/2/10, Tom Ulmer  wrote:
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14) From: Ryan M. Ward
This is extremely interesting and completely counter-intuitive to me. Thanks for sharing this, I am going to pursue this further.
Ryan M. Ward
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15) From: Bruce Garley
I stir the shot.
Bruce Garley
Plant Whisperer
San Juan Capistrano, CA and Stillwater, MN
 
Vivir con miedo es como vivir a medias.
 
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16) From: raymanowen
With the new Capresso, fresh roast and correct grind, the demi is nearly
full of emulsion (Crema) before it settles into strata of espresso with
crema on top. If anything, the emulsion of coffee oils seems to hold flavor
in the brew.
In Ray's World, If you smell a lot coming out of the grinder, brewer and
cup, that's less to experience in the cup as you sip it-
Cheers, Mabuhay, Iechyd da -RayO, aka Opa!
Don't Taste the cough syrup, Rollo, Slam it.
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17) From: Greg Hollrigel
So ... overall, my experiment was a success (for my taste buds).
Workshop #7 I labelled as FC+ (about 20 seconds into 2nd crack).  I roasted
8 ounces on 1lb, P2, A - I subtracted 4 minutes initially, and after hitting
start, added back 3 minutes.  It was about 5 minutes between 1st crack and
2nd crack.  I hit first crack around 11:30 and 2nd crack around 17:00.
(This is my typical P2 roasting profile).  The shots pulled really well and
the flavor was good.  I have a Gaggia Factory 106 lever machine, so I'm
pulling smaller shots.  I would say the shots had the consistency of warm
honey and left a nice lingering taste on the tongue after the shot was
finished.  I didn't have much fruit flavors, more towards bittersweet type
flavors, which is what I would expect from taking the roast this long.
Overall, I'm happy that I got the workshop blends working again.
SO Sumatra (Sumatra Lintong Dolok Sanggul) - I labelled this as FC+ (a bit
darker than the coffee above, but not much, 2nd crack just started picking
up speed).  I roasted 8 ounces on 1 lb, P4, B - I subtracted 5 minutes (I
believe, I took the original time down to 15:00, and added back 5:00 minutes
after the start).  This I think increases the initial heating ramp on P4.
1st crack started around 15:00 and 2nd crack started aroun 19:00.  This is
pretty typical for my P4 roasts.  Interestingly, or luckily, I have avoided
"baked" coffee.   Again, this is a pretty typical roasting profile for me on
P4.  The beans looked great.  I tasted the espresso on day 4 post roast.  It
was still too gassy in my opinion, I'll give it another day or two.  But,
the shots pulled decently, just a bit too light, and the flavor was pretty
good.  I also drank it as drip from the CCD, and it was fantastic.  So I
have high hopes for these beans too.
I was so happy, I tested my experiment by roasting another batch of Workshop
#6 - Treble Response to take it darker (if you recall, in my previous roasts
stopped just before 2nd crack, the shots were ok, but not great, and didn't
have the consistency that I like - nice crema and kind of syrupy/honeyish).
So I roasted 8 ounces on 1lb, P4, A.  I subtracted 4 minutes (start time was
14:00) and added back 5:00 after start.  I went about 10-20 seconds into 2nd
crack.  This time however, the time between 1st and 2nd was only about 3
minutes, which is typically shorter than my goal.  But, the beans look
exactly how I wanted.  I had to hit cool with 1 minute before the end.  My
hypothesis (or hope :-)):  the shots will pull with better consistency than
when I roasted to C+/FC.  This has 2-3 more days of rest.
As an aside, I also almost lost a roast.  I was roasting Ethiopia Gr. 3 Dry
Process Yirga Cheffe.  I roasted 8 ounces on 1 lb, A, P4, subracting 4
minutes, and adding back 5 after start.  First crack started almost at 16:00
minutes.  It started rolling pretty strong, but then I saw a bunch of
smoke.  I thought ... did I already go into 2nd crack, wow!  So I hit cool
and opened the door for about 30 seconds to make it cool quickly.  I thought
it was gone, way into rolling 2nd crack.  It turns out, the beans look and
smell perfect!  Ha!  It was rolling 1st crack when I cooled them.  I would
say by color, the roast is C or C+.  1 day after roast, the beans smell
pretty fruity.  Tomorrow I will have a cup.  I think it will be good.  So, I
got lucky on this one, just hope the taste works out.
I usually do my Ethiopians on P2, but as I mentioned, I was getting divots,
so I was trying alternate profiles.  The beans look much better on the P4,
but taste will be the determinant.
Also, on my P2 roasts, just for some information, I usually reduce the
initial time so the drop in temperature/power is about 8:30, which is about
30-60 seconds before 1st crack begins for me under my conditions.  This has
worked well for me to reduce the divots, by trying to slow the heat up into
1st crack, and to prolong the time until 2nd crack.  I used to wait until
1st crack started, but I like this approach.
I like to see crema, regardless of the tasting comments.  I figure if it's
good enough for the shops I like, it's good enough for me.  Sometimes I
blend the crema in, sometimes I don't.  My biggest difficulty is just
getting consistency on my lever machine, but I think I'm coming to the
conclusion that my Zass grinder may not be good enough for espresso.  It
seems to work 80-90% of the time in terms of giving me the shot consistency
I like.  But when things go haywire, the only thing I can figure is I am at
the limits of my grinder and can't get it finer.
Anyway, hope some of this information is useful to other Behmor users.  It
is fun for me to see the differences.
Happy Sunday!
Greg
On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 6:32 PM, michael brown  wrote:
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18) From: Robert Yoder
Greetings, and Happy New Year, everyone!
The Crema produced by my centrifuge extractor is blond and delicious!
While the resultant cup is not as deeply extracted as true espresso, in its case, the crema is not a source of bitterness.
Happy Roasting,
robert yoder
sent from an old, walnut deco-period table
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19) From: Yakster
What, pray tell, is a centrifuge extractor?
Can you share a picture?
-Chris
On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 10:16 PM, Robert Yoder wrote:
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20) From: miKe mcKoffee
Agreed roasting for espresso does NOT mean dark and oily. Nothing I roast
professionally or for home is dark and oily whether for espresso as SO or
blend (pre or post roast) or for other brewing method. Roasting targeted for
strictly espresso versus non-espresso brewing can mean different things for
different beans. For instance currently one of my "stock" SO's is a DP
Sidamo. I roast it the same finish degree temp, a City+ ~432f, whether for
non-espresso or targeted for espresso. (Currently running Sidamo in SO
grinder at St Johns Roastery Coffeehouse) BUT with a different profile to
get to City+. Specifically about an additional 30 seconds after tanning
through browning phase leading to start of 1st and 90 seconds additional
start of 1st to EOR with major part of end stretch towards end of 1st to end
of roast. Trick is slowing yet not stalling the roast of course. Hence
requirement of good bean temp monitoring and roaster control. FWIW USRC
16:30 versus 14:30 total roast times. This slower profile "softens" or
"tames" the Sidamo for a more managable yet still dynamic shot.
Slave to the Bean Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.NorwestCoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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