HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Is it just me? (42 msgs / 966 lines)
1) From: Jim Couch
Or has anyone else noticed how TINY the Haile Silassie Sidamo Beans are? The
batch I got makes Peaberry look like Pacamara. This is NOT a complaint just
wondered if anybody else has noticed? I have a narrow grid basket and about
25% fell through before the roasting started.
Jim
-- 
"Idiots are so much fun! Thats why every village either has one or wants
one!"
G. House MD.
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2) From: David Liguori
Jim Couch wrote:
<Snip>
That was a real problem in my Alpenrost days.  Peaberry was right out.  
But I haven't tried HSS, and the Gene doesn't depend on a grid to 
separate the beans from the heat..
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3) From: Jim Gundlach
I started to roast some in the Behmor and they started falling through  
the screen on the roast chamber so I had to give up.  Since I don't  
have the fine mesh version of the roast chamber it looks like I am  
back to wok roasting over a fire for these.
      pecan jim
On Jan 15, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Jim Couch wrote:
<Snip>
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4) From: Allon Stern
On Jan 15, 2010, at 11:41 AM, Jim Gundlach wrote:
<Snip>
Too bad, because theHSS is yummy. I used HG+DB for mine, done to C++. These beans develop more fruit with longer rest times. Mine are pushing 1 week from roast date, and are bursting with thick rich flavors, dried apricot, hints of leathery/tobacco notes.
-
allon
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5) From: Jim Couch
I could pick up FAINT hints of fruit and already a LOT of "wild" flavor was
hoping the fruit would come on out after rest. I lost quite a few beans to
dropping through the grid of the fine drum. Maybe should pull the IR2 back
out Huh? I used P3 on my Behmor anybody tried another of the profiles? And,
based on Toms reccomendations, I just let a full rolling 1st crack get going
and hit the cool cycle.
Jim
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Allon Stern  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"Idiots are so much fun! Thats why every village either has one or wants
one!"
G. House MD.
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6) From: Edward Bourgeois
Jim
Was this the small grid Behmor drum you used and still had 25% fall through?
thanks,
Ed
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 10:51 AM, Jim Couch  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
Amherst MA.http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/Homeroast mailing list
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7) From: Jim Couch
Sadly....YES!
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 3:01 PM, Edward Bourgeois wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"Idiots are so much fun! Thats why every village either has one or wants
one!"
G. House MD.
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8) From: cherry carter
I used P3 and lost only 3 or 4 beans that came through -- this is one of my
favorites. I used the small drum.
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Jim Couch  wrote:
<Snip>
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9) From: Jim Couch
Guess I just got a particularrly small batch......not light in weight just
my beans were small....
the bottom of the chaff tray was almost covered with them.........
Jim
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 5:03 PM, cherry carter wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"Idiots are so much fun! Thats why every village either has one or wants
one!"
G. House MD.
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10) From: Edward Bourgeois
Would be good to hear other experiences with these beans and the small
grid Behmor drum.
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 7:10 PM, Jim Couch  wrote:
<Snip>
wrote:
<Snip>
 my
<Snip>
om
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e:
<Snip>
and
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mariascoffee.com
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mariascoffee.com
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wants
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mariascoffee.com
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mariascoffee.com
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ariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
-- =
Ed Bourgeois aka farmroast
Amherst MA.http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/Homeroast mailing list
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11) From: Dave Huddle
I've had very few of these beans fall through the small Behmor grid.
Dave
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 7:16 PM, Edward Bourgeois  w=
rote:
<Snip>
st
<Snip>
f my
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com
<Snip>
te:
<Snip>
ns
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 and
<Snip>
tmariascoffee.com
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tmariascoffee.com
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 wants
<Snip>
tmariascoffee.com
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tmariascoffee.com
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mariascoffee.com
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fee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
ariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
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12) From: David Liguori
<Snip>
This is either deliberate or it points out the perils of acronyms.   I 
know now HG+DB stands for "heat gun plus dog bowl".  I assume C++ stands 
for "full city plus, plus".  Where I come from C++ is a computing 
language, so named because it is a successor to C and C++ is a shorthand 
command in C for "increment the integer variable C".  So if someone is 
searching the Web for help in C++ programming this is one more 
irrelevant hit to come up.   If, on the other hand, they are searching 
for advise on coffee roasting they may not have a clue as to what 
"HG+DB" stands for.
Allon Stern wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
David Liguori
Instructional Support Technician
Physics Department
University at Albany
1400 Washington Ave.
Albany, NY  12222
(518)-442-4524
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13) From: Jim Couch
Oh just cause I had drum issues with the HSS doesn't mean I had to forego
it...... Just cause I added a Behmor doesn't mean I buried my iRoast2 :-)
On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 9:37 AM, David Liguori  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
"Idiots are so much fun! Thats why every village either has one or wants
one!"
G. House MD.
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14) From: Allon Stern
On Mar 2, 2010, at 10:37 AM, David Liguori wrote:
<Snip>
Actually, C++ is City plus-plus, which I mean is roasted past the end of 1st crack, not quite to 2nd crack. No snaps of 2nd have been heard; I expect it's around 435 degrees in the bean mass, or thereabouts.
But hey, I love assembling my Java(tm) at C++.   ;)
-
allon
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15) From: Seth Grandeau
Allon,
Wouldn't that be Full City?
-Seth
On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Allon Stern  wrote:
<Snip>
 know now HG+DB stands for "heat gun plus dog bowl".  I assume C++ stands=
 for "full city plus, plus".  Where I come from C++ is a computing langua=
ge, so named because it is a successor to C and C++ is a shorthand command =
in C for "increment the integer variable C".  So if someone is searching =
the Web for help in C++ programming this is one more irrelevant hit to come=
 up.   If, on the other hand, they are searching for advise on coffee roa=
sting they may not have a clue as to what "HG+DB" stands for.
<Snip>
1st crack, not quite to 2nd crack. No snaps of 2nd have been heard; I expec=
t it's around 435 degrees in the bean mass, or thereabouts.
<Snip>
ariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
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16) From: Allon Stern
On Mar 3, 2010, at 5:28 PM, Seth Grandeau wrote:
<Snip>
By C++, I mean as far as you can get before really considering it FC.
I usually consider full city to start around when the beans start smoking a bit, and smelling like 2nd crack is imminent.
-
allon
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17) From: Jim Graf
On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:28 PM, Allon Stern  wrote:
<Snip>
Now this must be very specific to roasting equipment. I roast in a pot
outside over a propane stove and I see beans start "smoking a bit" before
first crack.
I was going to complain about your use of C++ as being a bit hard to resolve
- it's either city+ or full city, just pick one - but a search reveals that
SMs uses C++ in their cupping-log...
Why not --FC?
:)
-jim
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18) From: Allon Stern
On Mar 4, 2010, at 5:34 PM, Jim Graf  wrote:
<Snip>
Why City and Full City? Is a City roast any less than full? Maybe we  
should have Half City, and Mostly City roasts to indicate points in  
between.
USB has Full Speed and High Speed.
So we can have roasts beyond Full City designated High City.
;-)
-
allon
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19) From: Ryan M. Ward
// sorry, couldn't resist all of the C++ references
#include 
int main(void){
   cout << "By C++, I mean as far as you can get before really considering =
it FC. I usually consider full city to start around when the beans start sm=
oking a bit, and smelling like 2nd crack is imminent.";
return 0;
}
// Whew, got it out of my system (no pun intended). Coder for life!!!
-- =
Ryan M. Ward
*Note: This email was sent from a computer running Ubuntu Linux 9.10 (Karmi=
c Koala)http://www.ubuntu.com**Note: This signature was placed here by me and is not automatically-gener=
ated-annoying-end-of-email-spam placed here by anyone other than myself. I =
am a Linux nut and am doing my part to support open source software and the=
 Linux and Ubuntu communities by getting the word out with each email I sen=
d, I encourage you to do the same.
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
 a bit, and smelling like 2nd crack is imminent.
<Snip>
ariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
 		 	   		  =
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20) From: Brian Kamnetz
I personally think that probably the finer distinctions -- City, C+,
C++, etc) have the most meaning for people who have learned to
"stretch" the part of the roast between first crack and second crack.
Brian
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Allon Stern  wrote:
<Snip>
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21) From: Allon Stern
On Mar 4, 2010, at 8:09 PM, Brian Kamnetz wrote:
<Snip>
It isn't hard. If you rush through the first part of the roast, you will end up in the last part of the roast much faster.
When doing HG+DB roasts, I usually give it about 3 minutes on the low setting of the heatgun, maybe more sometimes. Then I set it up to high, and back the HG off from the bowl. Sometimes I switch to low, stir, switch to high, stir, etc., as I approach 1st crack, to try to slow it down. If you don't go into 1st slow, you won't go out of 1st slow either.
I did some espresso workshop #7 the other night, 250g with HG+FB (fry basket, in a snug fitting bowl). I hit 1st crack at around 11 minutes, EOR at 14:30, with 2nd just getting started (after reading the notes, I realize I should have stopped sooner. Ah well, it's still good :)
-
allon
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22) From: miKe mcKoffee
<Snip>
Somebody's High in the City:-) Whether Full High or Mostly High or only Half
roasted meaning Less may mean More only you can say! 
Back to the question: Why not --FC?
Because a double negative equals a positive and would therefore be +FC. And
of course FC+ could also be called LV, which though a City is a far cry from
City whether plus or minus. FWIWAIAM used LFC for many years rather than
City++. Continuing: though a double negative equals a positive, a double
positive equals a positive, but I'm positive since it's redundant though
double it's in essence really only single and hence City++ is in it's
singularity reduced to equal City+. Which is to say City+ may be roasted a
wee tad lighter than City++, yet City++ equals City+, logically speaking,
and neither equals --FC because that equals +FC which equals FC+ which equal
LV but does not equal LFC which is also a far cry from City but closer than
LV. Unless you're reading this in LV which means it can't be far because
you're there, but that's another conundrum to be tackled at a later date.
(LV=Light Vienna, LFC=Light Full City, FWIWAIAM=for what it's worth and it
ain't much)
And folks, that is one small reason why the Agtron Scale is used by the Big
Boys with Bucks to discuss roast levels!
Have fun with that one Ray-O! I've got too much work yet to do to double
check my (il)logic string of (un)consciousness...
Slave to the Bean Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.NorwestCoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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23) From: Allon Stern
On Mar 4, 2010, at 11:34 PM, miKe mcKoffee wrote:
<Snip>
I yield! You win!
The only double I want is a double shot of espresso.
Roasted brown. Brown is nice.
Niiiiice and brown.
-
allon
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24) From: miKe mcKoffee
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
 -
<Snip>
True and false. True, "unless" you have the ability/skill to have let's say
a good 18f/min ramp tanning through browning phase (after drying phase) and
as "approaching" 1st slamming the breaks on the delta slowing the ramp to
let's say 6f/min ramp to finish with a well developed sweet and lively City
with 3 or better yet 3:30 start of early 1st to end of roast. Just going
slow through browning can result in "deader" cup. Of course too fast and it
can be imbalanced the other direction. 
Sometimes I miss the "good ol' days" of the List when a few of us did things
like roasting the same bean with different controlled bean temp monitored
profiles, things like comparing how going from 300f to 400f
(tanning/browning leading to 1st) at 10f/15f/20f/25f/min ramp rates affected
the cup. At one time there was a lot of serious hardcore art and science of
roasting going on. But you gotta have repeatable monitoring and control,
otherwise it can be just randomly turning beans brown... Not saying good
results can't be hand flying by the seat of your pants! I've paid my dues
learning to roast with a carbon steel 14gauge wok, SS skillet no stir "chef
toss" only etc. But tell you want, while those methods are fun and can yield
interesting cups they aren't necessarily the most effective methods to
really make each bean sing.
No biggy, everybody's Journey is different.
Slave to the Bean Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.NorwestCoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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25) From: Jim Graf
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 8:34 PM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
<Snip>
My 7yo daughter talks like this when she has had too much sugar.
:)
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26) From: Jim Gundlach
No, it is not just you.  There are two roots to this problem.  The  
first is that we are talking about a continuous variable by using an  
ordinal scale, it is like talking about height using the categories  
short, medium, and tall without having exact measurements and tools to  
make the measurements for the categories.  The best we have, in my  
opinion, are SweetMaria's pictures but our computer monitors even show  
them somewhat differently.  The second problem is that the speed and  
way of roasting can produce varying degrees of difference between the  
unground and ground beans colors.  A very fast roast can produce less  
roasted middles of the beans than a slower roast and it will produce  
more difference between the colors of the whole and ground beans.  The  
result is that we have less than perfect communication when we are  
writing about roasted bean colors.
    pecan jim
On Mar 5, 2010, at 8:43 AM, Jim Graf wrote:
<Snip>
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27) From: Jim Graf
On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 7:31 AM, Jim Gundlach  wrote:
<Snip>
It can be very confusing. If you stall the roast at 380 for a bit before
continuing on to 1st crack, and then you stop the roast immediately after
1st, do you have a City or a City+. It's the vagueness of roast color, time
till  that makes tasting the result more important. I think
Tom emphasizes  that by describing in great detail the flavors that he
achieved at a couple of different roast levels. Do I interpret that
correctly?
The really difficult thing for us small batch roasters is to have some sort
of consistency between batches. Folks with sophisticated roasters must be
able to achieve consistency far far better then folks like me - sitting
under a tree, flipping beans in a pot, watching the birds, sipping a beer...
So for me and I emphasize me, stating something is C++ is just so much smoke
in the wind.
:)
-jim
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28) From: Ryan M. Ward
Does the industry have formal roast definitions? If so, this may shed light on the issue, if not, perhaps it is time to create some.
-- 
Ryan M. Ward
*Note: This email was sent from a computer running Ubuntu Linux 9.10 (Karmic Koala)http://www.ubuntu.com**Note: This signature was placed here by me and is not automatically-generated-annoying-end-of-email-spam placed here by anyone other than myself. I am a Linux nut and am doing my part to support open source software and the Linux and Ubuntu communities by getting the word out with each email I send, I encourage you to do the same.
<Snip>
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29) From: miKe mcKoffee
As has been mentioned before use Tom's excellent pictorial guide! What's
more appropriate for home roasters chatting on the SM sponsored List? http://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.php<Snip>
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30) From: Ryan M. Ward
I was thinking something a little more rigorous. An example may be Full City defined to be 90% sugars caramelized and 80% of organic material converted to carbon or something like that (Note: I am completely making these numbers and specs up for illustrative purposes). From such a technical definition which is rigorous enough to control many factors, you then create a working procedure (such as 1kg of beans roasted at 400 Fahr for 5 minutes and immediately cool to a temperature of 30 degrees fahr within 2 minutes by air cooling). 
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31) From: miKe mcKoffee
The Industry does in fact have a very precise system with a color to number
reference system for coffee roasts. I know it's been mentioned on List many
times. Implemented using either an Agtron spectrophotometer costing I don't
know how many thousands of dollars or the SCAA/Agtron Roast Color
Classification System set of 8 colored disks, petri dishes and instruction
manual costing $295/$195 SCAA non-member/member respectively.
How do you propose a home roaster (who also does NOT happen to be a chemist)
determine sugar caramelization or organic converted to carbon percentages? I
do hope you jest. If someone can't figure out how to communicate roast
levels with the tools Tom's provided there's something very cognitively
wrong...
Slave to the Bean Kona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
www.NorwestCoffee.com
URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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32) From: Ryan M. Ward
"How do you propose a home roaster (who also does NOT happen to be a chemist) determine sugar caramelization or organic converted to carbon percentages? I do hope you jest. If someone can't figure out how to communicate roast levels with the tools Tom's provided there's something very cognitively wrong..."
I think this issue may now be dead in the water and lost in technicalities, my fault. My original question, and follow up elaborations were never meant to be applied directly to the home roaster. I would never presume that a home roaster has the interest, training, etc... in chemistry to make analysis of organic compounds within coffee a practical or feasible way to determine the best ways to roast coffee. I was simply asking if the industry had set standards. 
In regards to the following comment:
"If someone can't figure out how to communicate roast levels with the
tools Tom's provided there's something very cognitively wrong..."
My perception of the origination of this discussion follows from the following:
1) A lack of consistent usage of a naming convention- particularly to the symbols c++ and Full City Roast
2) The fact that the color images provided by SM are monitor dependent and although are helpful, cannot be relied on rigorously (Please note, Tom, I do appreciate your providing that image and I do use it in my home roasting, my comments should be interpreted as statements of the limitations of technology, not a lack of appreciate for a service that you have provided to us free of charge) 
Now, besides the articles which I have found on the Sweet Maria's this picture considered in our present discussion is the only "tool" which I am familiar with from Sweet Maria's. Given these facts, I believe you have accused everyone participating in this discussion, who have posted legitimate questions- including myself, of having cognitive deficiencies. 
Is this what you mean to suggest?
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Ryan M. Ward
*Note: This email was sent from a computer running Ubuntu Linux 9.10 (Karmic Koala)http://www.ubuntu.com**Note: This signature was placed here by me and is not automatically-generated-annoying-end-of-email-spam placed here by anyone other than myself. I am a Linux nut and am doing my part to support open source software and the Linux and Ubuntu communities by getting the word out with each email I send, I encourage you to do the same.
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33) From: miKe mcKoffee
If relying strictly or primarily on bean "color" as the determining factor
in degree of roast then yes, there is indeed a deficiency, a lack of
understanding, in what Tom provides on his roast pictorial page. 
"Visual examination during roasting is 'just one of the ways' to determine
where the coffee is in the roast process. By itself, it is of limited use.
When complimented by the audible cues (first and second crack) and the
aromas of the roast process, it is extremely informative. Beware that coffee
is more about exceptions that rules; Sumatras often look like they are in
the City roast while in fact they are into 2nd Crack. On the other hand,
there is an occasional coffee that over-represents the degree of roast, that
looks darker than it truly is, such as some Kenyas and St. Helena (and some
would say that dry-processed Brazils are in the category too). Dry-processed
"natural" coffees do not roast to an even color, so it is hard to judge the
median color of the batch to determine the degree of roast. And none of
these factors necessarily have a bearing on the quality of a raw coffee:
quality is determined in the cup!" 
And further:
"The important thing is here is to see the transformation the coffee goes
through as it roasts and what look, color, bean "size" and "surface
texture", corresponds to the degree of roast."
Tending to rely primarily or even strictly on the bean color during the
roast to determine roast level is normal early in roasting Journeys, but it
is faulty. As Tom points out by itself "it is of limited use".
As far as terminology usage such as City++ etc. goes, their usage is to a
degree subjective versus a system like Agtron. But the more experienced
gained discussing roasts the less variance in meaning is found.
That said read my sigtag, it isn't just a saying. The more I know about
coffee the more I know I don't know.
Slave to the Bean Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.NorwestCoffee.comUltimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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34) From: Rich
Maybe Tom could include a Macbeth's mini-color reference card next to 
any of the bean pictures.  This will allow for proper monitor/printer 
adjustment to remove monitor/printer induced error.
Ryan M. Ward wrote:
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35) From: Ryan M. Ward
Not a bad idea.
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36) From: Tom Ulmer
I fail to see the relevance of this Industry reference. The notion of color
coding a roast has very little or no bearing in my consideration of roasting
coffee.

37) From: Ed Needham
...and...and...and...hard bean, high grown coffees roast differently and 
take on a darker color much later in the roast than the less dense, lower 
grown coffees.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

38) From: miKe mcKoffee
The relevance was in answering the question of whether there was an industry
standard to determine roast level, not necessarily in it's usefulness to a
home roaster!
miKe 
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39) From: Tom Ulmer
The relevance of color coding beyond the home roaster also escapes me.

40) From: Ryan M. Ward
This is another reason I  asked if the industry had set standard definitions based on some fundamental change in the bean, another consideration is the uneven browning of the outside vs the inside which is dependant on the ambient temperature. A definition based on color unless other variables such as temperature were accounted for.
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41) From: Ryan M. Ward
To be honest, I kind of wish I had not brought it up- my curiosity got the best of me. I have clearly opened up a can of worms. 
My question was purely academic in nature. Although I see practical value for the home roaster in the implications of such a definition (as I tried to outline in my second email), it is of little immediate practical value. I simply wanted to know if and how the coffee industry establishes what a City Roast is. 
Stated another way, from the perspective of the industry, is one person's City another Person's French(this is meant to be illustrative), or is there some kind of formal definition which prevents such ambiguity.
Please feel free to disregard my original post.
-- 
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42) From: Doug Hoople
Hi Ryan,
There are a couple of very broad-level indicators that help to frame the
classifications. They won't help distinguish C++ from FC (I didn't actually
think there was a C++, that its introduction was a programmer's joke), but
they do help at the broader level.
The two things that come to mind are
1) proximity to the cracks.
2) oil on the surface
Mind you, around here 2) indicates a roast level that's generally frowned
upon, as it helps to distinguish Vienna and darker, but the complete absence
of oil on the surface at least indicates that your roast is lighter than
Vienna.
But 1) seems to be a reasonable "extra indicator" that helps to pin down C
from C+ from FC from FC+.
Of course, you can get to 1st crack in 4 minutes and be grossly
underroasted, so it's obviously not absolute. But, combined with other
methods and indicators, it's a really valuable marker for your degree of
roast, IMHO.
Doug
On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Ryan M. Ward
wrote:
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