HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Roast not done? (37 msgs / 881 lines)
1) From: Mark Jones
Good morning everyone! 
It's been driving me insane, but I've been using the Behmor for my roasts and experimenting for a nice roast for a drip maker. They've been pretty bitter I think and not sure what I'm doing wrong. I've been using either P1 C or P3 C and running either a 2 min preheat and then adding back the time after Start or just hitting start from the get go. I've been shooting for just before 2C and hitting cool and then opening the door a good min or 2 after wards to aid in cooling. My roasts have not been turning out as expected. The beans still have the visible chaff in the crevice and not showing that nice flat brown finish. 
Any assistance or help would be greatly appreciated. 
Thanks 
Mark
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2) From: Bonnie Polkinghorn
Hello Mark,
I'll let others chime in on what may make a bitter brew, from the people who
know more about the grind, ratio of grounds to water, and the temperature of
the water, etc.
However, I'll comment on the roasting part, and tell you what I like to do.
I time from the beginning of first crack to the end of the roast.   I have a
hard time figuring out exactly when 1C ends, but I definitely can tell when
it begins.
I know all the roasters are different, but for 8 ounces of greens, I go for
3.5 - 4 minutes after start of 1C.  For 12 ounces, I go about 5 minutes.  I
roast on P2, so I do not have experience with P1 or P3.
Since you roast on P1, you should be able to do a practice roast and time
the start of 1C, the duration of 1C,and the start of 2C.  Then, you will
have a better idea of the time between 1C and 2C on your roaster, and you
will be able to estimate when to end a desired C+ roast or FC roast.
Also, your visible signs, of still having chaff in the crevice and your
finish are OK for C+ and FC, and not having the chaff, and having a smooth
brown finish are more FC+, so maybe you are roasting where you want to
roast, but the bitterness may be coming from the brewing method.
Have a great day,
Bonnie
On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 6:31 AM, Mark Jones  wrote:
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3) From: Rich
You are over thinking the process with all of the door fanning and 
preheating.  look in the manual and locate the time table that lists the 
time from the first crack of 1st to 2nd time.  For 1lb of beans its 3min 
40 seconds.  Load up a weighed 1/4, 1/2, or 1lb batch of a high grown 
bean and select the weight an hit start.  Listen closely for the 
absolute first crack.  When you hear it subtract 2:30 to 2:50 (for 1lb 
batch) from the clock and when you reach that time hit cool and keep 
your hands off of the door.  If you are concerned about running out of 
time just run it to max before you start.
Mark Jones wrote:
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4) From: Sandy Andina
Re-roast, watch like a hawk, and hit "cool" as soon as first crack is over.
On Feb 8, 2010, at 8:31 AM, Mark Jones wrote:
<Snip>
Peace & song, 
Sandy 
www.sandyandina.com
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5) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Claus_Th=F8gersen?=
Hi,
The Behmors  run very different in different homes.
p1 seems to be a good profile to be able to enter second crack. You cannot =
use c on p1 so just use a, wait until the last few minutes and add the extr=
a =
time max 90 seconds to the roast if needed.
On my Behmor p3 even with d and added time does not bring the beans into =
second crack, unless aI preheat the roaster. p1 or p4 with extra time can =
get into second crack.
On European Behmors the time noted in the manual from first to second crack=
s =
make little sense, the times are shorter, but the manual is written for the =
American version.
2 ways to be sure to enter second crack is to preheat the roaster 1 to 2 =
minutes before the roast, not recommended by Behmor but several people are =
doing it. Another way is to use less beans than the pound, or ½ pound. Do =
not start with 1/4 pounds since this is the hardest roasts to get good =
results with.
Claus
From: "Rich" 
To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this =
list,available athttp://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"=
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Roast not done?
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6) From: Frank Awbrey
Claus, where did you read not to pre heat? I'm thinking that I read where
Joe Behm "does" recommend up to about a 2 minute pre-heat (read it on coffee
geek?, possibly-don't remember).
On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Claus Thøgersen  wrote:
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-- =
Frank
"Still the one"
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7) From: Rich
A 1 minute preheat.  If the roaster is stored in a cool/cold location.
Frank Awbrey wrote:
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8) From: Ira
At 09:23 AM 2/9/2010, you wrote:
<Snip>
Joe has recently started recommending a 1 minute preheat without 
beans, myself and others have recommended 2(p1) to 3(p3) minute 
pre-heats with the beans in the roaster.
Ira
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9) From: Yakster
I think that Behmor is recommending a one minute pre-heat without beans but
with chaff tray (and drum?) in this situation.
This is distinctly different then a one to two minute pre-roast with beans
in the roaster.
I used to do up to two minute pre-roasts, now I'm leaning more towards one
minute pre-heats when it's cold to get my profiles to more closely resemble
the ones I did during the summer.
-Chris
On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Rich  wrote:
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10) From: Frank Awbrey
I agree with Rich. I just checked on the Behmor website and it does say that
a one minute pre-heat can be done. It says, "Prehheat for 1 minute only, any
longer could activate a safety feature, which prevents a restart!" I have
read where people have preheated up to close to 2 minutes before the safety
feature kicks in and it will not start.
On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Rich  wrote:
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-- =
Frank
"Still the one"
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11) From: Ira
At 03:07 PM 2/9/2010, you wrote:
<Snip>
I've gone to 2:30 on a P1 preheat with the beans in the chamber 
without problem and over 3 minutes on a P3 preheat.  it is machine, 
coffee and environment sensitive so your mileage may vary.
When I've accidently gone past, a pair of thin gloves, an ice cube 
and about 15 seconds gets it back running. But you're not supposed to 
know that.
Ira
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12) From: Rich
I experimented with preheating in great detail while attempting to solve =
a slow roasting issue back before the official fix was issued. =
Preheating the roaster or the beans had no significant on the final =
roast level.  I did preheat to the point of tripping the safety =
interlock.  I preheated roaster only, beans only, beans and roaster =
separately, and beans and roaster together.  All a total waste of time, =
effort, and energy.  Contact Behmor customer support for the slow =
roaster fix.  The fix will solve the problem.  I can roast 1 lb to =
Vienna or French on P-1 in under 18 minutes.
Frank Awbrey wrote:
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13) From: Ira
At 04:27 PM 2/9/2010, you wrote:
<Snip>
That fix will likely solve the problem, but a short pre-heat with the 
beans in the machine causes no appreciable extra work and if there 
wasn't occasionally a problem with running out of time, I promise 
you, Behmor wouldn't be suggesting it.
Ira
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14) From: Rich
Preheating is a kludgey workaround for a fixable problem.  This is how 
you initiate major industrial accidents.
Ira wrote:
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15) From: miKe mcKoffee
Then again pre-heating is mandatory for any kind of consistency batch to
batch commercial roasting. I found the same to be true close to a decade
strictly home-roasting multiple roasting appliances. It's ludicrous to
expect batch one starting from a cold roaster to run the same as batch two
from a warm or hot roaster... 
Which isn't to say a roaster that has a known problem with a known fix
shouldn't have said fix applied.
Slave to the Bean Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.NorwestCoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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16) From: Rich
Behmor is not recommended or rated for back to back roasting.  So, hot 
roaster for subsequent roast should not be an issue if following the 
directions.  Recommendation is a 30 minute cool down period with door 
open.  All roasts initiate from basically ambient conditions.  An 
initial1 minute preheat will not bring the roaster anywhere close to the 
roaster's end of roast cool cycle temperature.  The new chaff tray comes 
out of the roaster at the end of the cool cycle with a temperature of 
about 140F on the handle and the body section closest to the handle. 
the rest of the interior is cool but the outer shell of the roaster is a 
bit warm.
miKe mcKoffee wrote:
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17) From: Ira
At 06:42 PM 2/9/2010, you wrote:
<Snip>
Unless of course it doesn't fix it, which it doesn't do on occasion. 
Do you know why the fix works, or did you just do it and it worked, 
or did yours just work?
Ira
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18) From: Ira
At 08:15 PM 2/9/2010, you wrote:
<Snip>
Likely because he doesn't want the problems with having them wear out 
before the warranty expires. Myself and others do back to back roasts 
with no problems. My roaster seems essentially cold at the end of the 
cooling cycle and in the 10 minutes it takes to get ready for the 
next roast it's cold or close enough for me.
Ira
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19) From: Rich
The roaster was slow and when I bent the corner and that fixed it(slow 
roaster fix).  The beans and roaster are are stored in the house in the 
kitchen. So they start off at the same temperature.
Before the fix I fiddled with preheat and it was a waste of time, and 
ineffective.
Ira wrote:
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20) From: Ira
At 07:44 AM 2/10/2010, you wrote:
<Snip>
Well, before I did the fix it could barely roast coffee, after the 
fix pre-heat makes a significant improvement in my roaster's ability 
to finish a 1lb roast so, just because it fixed your machine, doesn't 
mean it will fix all the machines.
Ira
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21) From: Yakster
Darn, now I really gotta get my "fix".
Guess I'll have to contact Behmor to get my "fix".
-Chris
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Ira  wrote:
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22) From: Rich
How far did you open it up?  Have you called Behmor tech support?  I can 
ALMOST start a fire in 18 minutes on P-1 with 1lb of beans.  They come 
out black and oily, definite *$ quality roast.
Ira wrote:
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23) From: Demian Ebert
So all this talk about fancy roasting patterns and preheat. Nobodys
mentioned the possibility that the roast is fine but it is over
extraction in the brewing method that is creating the bitter result.
Details ewere thin other than the comment about roasting for drip. Try
cleaning you brewing equipment, switch to another method with good
water temperature control (french press) and try a sample (coarse
grind, but no more than 3-4 min extraction). Even if you don't like FP
coffee it should tell you if the bitter is coming from the brew method
or the roast. Once you know that you can delve into other details.
Demian
On 2/10/10, Ira  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
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24) From: Ira
At 10:20 AM 2/10/2010, you wrote:
<Snip>
Further than they said.  Given that I was told what the problem and 
why the fix works, I can't imagine opening it further than I did 
would help more.
Ira
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25) From: Rich
I think the amount of opening is critical.  I only tweaked it open about 
75% of the original amount shown in the first fuzzy picture.  I think 
the opening blows air on the chamber thermistor to let the temperature 
run to a higher value.  As it worked I quit thinking much about it.
Ira wrote:
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26) From: Ira
At 05:52 PM 2/10/2010, you wrote:
<Snip>
Yea, the fuzzy pictures. I complained about them and was told I was 
the only one who complained. Lame answer if I ever heard one.  And 
while that would seem to be the obvious answer, it's not what I was 
told was the problem.  If what you're thinking is the problem is 
actually the problem, there's something seriously wrong with the 
design.  That sensor should be measuring the inside temperature of 
the roast chamber and if blowing air that tiny amount of air at it 
changes it's reading that much, something is really wrong.
Ira
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27) From: Greg Hollrigel
What is "the fix" that was mentioned by contacting Behmor?  Can someone just
provide a general explanation of what Behmor's official fix is?
I am now preheating for 90 seconds when I do 1 pound roasts, and I notice a
difference.  If I don't preheat, and I roast a full pound, it is not
uncommon for me not to finish 1st crack.  When I preheat, I can take the
same amount and type of beans into 2nd crack.  So I'm happy doing it.
But, I would still like to read what the official fix is just for my
information.
Greg

28) From: Greg Hollrigel
Ahhh, ok, disregard my previous email, I see we're talking about bending
something in the inside.  I'll contact Behmor on this if I ever need to go
down this path.
Greg

29) From: Rich
Its been a while since I had the end off but I seem to remember that the 
sensor is spaced a bit off of the wall.  As I say, I did not bend it 
down as far as the picture showed and after it worked I promptly quit 
worrying about it. Roast time dropped from 21-22min to 15-16min.
Ira wrote:
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30) From: Ira
At 07:01 PM 2/10/2010, you wrote:
<Snip>
In order to get the fix you have to promise not to tell, so call 
Behmor and ask for it.
Ira
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31) From: Yakster
I got my "fix!"  I also ordered and installed a new afterburner (wire broke
on the old one).  I had re-crimped the old afterburner wire, but wanted to
get a new one... I'll keep the old one as a spare.
I'll have to try out the "fix" on my next batch, but part of me is reluctant
because it will devalue the ~100 roast history I've built up and use to plan
future roasts over the past year.  I think I'm going to do it anyway.
One question, I've started to roast half pound batches of almonds on a 1/4#
P1 profile to 7:30, they're delicious.  I'm wondering if I can count these
roasts as dry burns?
-Chris
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 9:27 AM, Yakster  wrote:
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32) From: Bonnie Polkinghorn
After the "fix", you may notice a consistent decrease in the number of
minutes per roast.  For example, speaking about a friend, it was exactly 3.5
minutes shorter to the start of 1C on an 8 ounce batch, no matter what the
bean.
The friend was able to use his or her old data by just subracting that 3.5
minutes.
I deny everything, I don't know what fix you are talking about, and if I
did, I never did it, nor did I talk about it.
-Bonnie P.
On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 9:08 AM, Yakster  wrote:
<Snip>
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33) From: stan bob
Hi all
 
Sure sounds like allot of us have had to have a "Fix."  I'm certainly on =
that list too!  Sounds like just a little too much safety has been engine=
ered into our machines!  ...and yes, I too don't recall how I fixed mine!=
 lol
 
BTW, I am mostly just a lurker here.  Love the great discussion and have =
gotten great wisdom from all you Folks.  Thanks
 
Stan
After the "fix", you may notice a consistent decrease in the number of
minutes per roast.  For example, speaking about a friend, it was exactly =
3.5
minutes shorter to the start of 1C on an 8 ounce batch, no matter what the
bean.
The friend was able to use his or her old data by just subracting that 3.5
minutes.
I deny everything, I don't know what fix you are talking about, and if I
did, I never did it, nor did I talk about it.
      =
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34) From: Ira
At 12:17 PM 2/11/2010, you wrote:
<Snip>
But some of us know the truth!
Ira
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35) From: raymanowen
"The Behmors  run very different in different homes...
On European Behmors the time noted in the manual from first to second cracks
make little sense, the times are shorter, but the manual is written for the
American version."
Of course, they run differently. Different US homes have 110v-115v-120v-125v
"standard" power. The heating power generated in the machine varies
exponentially with the power supply voltage. The power and ultimate heat
available vary wildly.
With a more powerful heater and PID temperature control, the operational
problems would diminish. So would the $300 price tag, and the tyranny of
numbers [of components] could escalate problems.
Cheers, Mabuhay, Iechyd da -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?
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36) From: Yakster
I got ready to implement the "fix" before roasting up half a pound of Brazil
and was surprised to find my Behmor had already been fixed.
Must have come that way from Alchemist John when I bought it, I never knew.
-Chris
On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 9:08 AM, Yakster  wrote:
<Snip>
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37) From: Martin Maney
On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 09:08:38PM -0700, raymanowen wrote:
<Snip>
I'm sorry, I am compelled to pick this nit.  The power will vary as the
square of the voltage, not an exponential.  That would still be about a
30% change from 110 to 125, which is enough to make results vary
plenty.
<Snip>
It shouldn't cost much (in terms of per-unit costs) to implement the
PID logic in the microcontroller, but for that to work it needs both
more responsive sensors than it has (or maybe the problem is more one
of just what's being measured) as well as possibly a substantial change
in the high power control parts.  At that point it seems silly not to
be measuring the actual bean mass temperature, which means getting a
sensor inside the drum, which may mean a complete redesign.  Yeah, the
price would have to go... ;-)
-- 
There is overwhelming evidence that the higher the level of self-esteem,
the more likely one will be to treat others with respect, kindness, and
generosity. -- Nathaniel Branden
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