HomeRoast Digest


Topic: City? City +? Full City? (39 msgs / 1841 lines)
1) From: John A C Despres
Here are some questions that I'm wondering about.
What do you label your degree of roast? How do you know? When do they occur?
There are several different lists of when a certain degree of roast is
reached and they dont match.
Sweet Marias list is as follows also with pictures as reference:
City + roast at 435F, about 25 seconds after end of 1st crack
Full City roast at 444F about 25 seconds after 1st ends
Full City + at 454F about 1:50 after 1st endshttp://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.phpThe HRO List has these divisions without temperatures but pictures as
reference.
Cinnamon roast just after 1st crack
New England Roast
American Roast
City Roast
Full City Roast just after 2nd crackhttp://www.homeroasters.org/index.htmKenneth Davids has this list in his book Home Coffee Roasting
Cinnamon roast below 400F
New England at 400F
American at 400-415F
City at 415-435F
Full City at435-445F
And also from Sweet Marias, this list at the bottom of the page
George Steinert's Degree of Roast/Temperature chart:
Early yellow at 327F
1st Crack Begins at 401F
1st Crack Under Way at 415F
City Roast at 426F
City+ at 435 F
Full City    446    F
Full City+    454    F
Vienna (Light French)    465    Fhttp://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.phpHeres yet another site with variances: (This one is interesting with lots
of nice, seemingly accurate descriptions)http://www.cofei.com/categories/degree-of-roast-temperature-description.htmlMy concern is communication amongst us home coffee roasters. My Full City +
may be your Full City. Yet your Full City may come after 2nd crack and my
Full City is before 2nd is remotely near.
Which labeling system do you use? Is there yet another guide you go by? How
can we better communicate our roast degree to one another?
Some of us are able to determine bean temperature while others know the drum
temperature only. Stating the temperature of when your roast ended is of
great importance to some while it means nothing to me as theres no way f=
or
me to know.
All of this occurred to me this afternoon while chatting with the owner of a
USRC. He knows as much as possible about his roasts, while I know exhaust
temperature and time. Of course, these are both usable factors; I can base
roasts on the information and then measure the bean temperature with an IR
thermometer immediately upon pulling the drum. That could be great post
roast information like recording the weight loss; theres no way I can kn=
ow
it before the roast ends in my Gene Caf.
So, what do we call our roasts? How and why?
John
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2) From: Yakster
I use the Sweet Maria's Degrees of Roast chart as a guide and navigate
mostly by the cracks ending my roasts between city to full city+ (with one
or two Vienna or French exceptions).  I made some notes on the chart and
saved it as my background... this is what it looks like.http://s661.photobucket.com/albums/uu332/yakster/?action=view¤t=D=egreeofRoasts.jpg
City -- First Crack Ends
City +
Full City
Full City + -- Second Crack Starts
Vienna
French -- Second crack near end
The temperatures that you measure are going to differ by roaster and even
the bean colors will differ by method (drum, air, radiant, etc.) so it can
be hard to cross-compare.  Today I saw the Sivetz chart that describes the
degree of roast related to the % change in weight which will probably only
further confuse the issue:http://www.sivetzcoffee.com/images/roastdegree1.jpg,but I'm sticking with
the Sweet Maria's definitions mainly because I saw them first and there's
more background information in the Sweet Maria's library to make a
consistent chart out of.
-Chris
On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 3:02 PM, John A C Despres wr=
ote:
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3) From: Gail C Sorrells
John A C Despres wrote:
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Hello, you ask some very cogent questions! :)
IMHO you are leaping from the "science of roasting" to the "art of =
roasting". You see, everyone and anyone has their own definitions of =
what are the different levels of roasting. The only constant seems to =
the the much darker, ie. French to Italian roasts. Vienna is considered =
Light Vienna or First City+ or Vienna and or First City ++. Depends on =
who you read.
I use the Behmor 1600 and perform a modified P2, by opening/closing the =
door at the height of roasting.
I cannot tell you spceifically what level of roast I achieve: The center =
of the bean is open, there is little visible chaff, and the chocolate =
aroma is always well noted, and the color is a rich brown. ( My rich =
brown may not be your rich brown. Art of roasting)
The moisture content loss is usually equal to 15% to 18% with an ave of =
16-17% moisture loss. I weigh the green beans then re-weigh after roasting.
For me the determining factor is in the cup: Do I have a wondrous Bloom? =
Is the aroma Chocolately? When the beans are ground do they release a =
pleasing coffee aroma? Finally, does the first sip say AWWWWWW!
Then I simply enjoy!
Monica Gail
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4) From: michael brown
Good discussion!
When i was roasting on the behmor i dumbed it down to just 4 "roasts" i aim=
ed for.
If i stopped it as soon as 1C ended i called it city.  a few seconds past e=
nd of 1C but no hints of 2C was city+.
Start of 2C was Full City.  anything past that i called Full City+.  Anythi=
ng more than 5 seconds into 2C i called burnt because through the "cooling"=
 cycle would add at least an additional 8-15seconds and i didn't enjoy it.
Now that i'm learning more about my USRC i'm getting to see the differences=
 of 2-3 degrees.  So when i'm discussing roasts, profiles, and degree of ro=
asts with other 'big roaster' owners i talk in terms of temperature.  =
interesting topic!
Michael B
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5) From: glenn rogers
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cD9nMl9pdGVtSWQ9NzgyMA==

6) From: Ed Needham
If there is one man in America who knows the true answer to this question i=
t =
is Don Schoenholt of Gillies Coffee in New York City.  I won't go into Don'=
s =
coffee pedigree, but you can either trust me on this one or look him up. =
Gillies has been roasting coffee since 1840.  Here's what Don says about th=
e =
City, Full City, Full City +, etc., quoted from an alt.coffee post:
"Newsgroups: alt.coffee
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 12:16 AM
Subject: Re: New York Coffee\
<Snip>
<Snip>
Straight from the Coffeeman's mouth.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

7) From: Yakster
Ed,
Thanks for sharing, that's interesting and I like to know the historical
perspective.  It also explains why the "Anglo" roast on the Sivetz chart is
so far to the left.
The only thing I roast to cinnamon is almonds (to just into first crack).
-Chris
On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Ed Needham  wrote:
<Snip>
out
<Snip>
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<Snip>
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<Snip>
ow
<Snip>
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<Snip>
know
<Snip>
ariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ariascoffee.com
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com
Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820

8) From: Doug Hoople
Hi Ed,
Thanks for this. Gillies is one of the places I'd get my coffee when I was
living there in the 70s and 80s. It was before the specialty coffee
revolution and they were one of the few "old-line" suppliers left.
I also don't doubt that Don Schoenholt is a true authority on some aspects
of coffee history. His explanation of how the term "City Roast" came into
being is interesting and, possibly, might even be true.
However, his explanation of the origin of Starbucks dark roast, is
second-hand (he was a New Yorker describing a West Coast phenomenon) and
wrong.
"One hundred years later, the Full City-roast was borrowed by the original
Starbuck's partner and roastmaster Gerald Baldwin to describe the dark Dutch
roast that he had been taught by Alfred Peet at Peet's in Emoryville CA."
This is the received wisdom, something I had also heard and believed, but
it's false.
With thanks to Starfinder Stanley, whose father was an early Peet's
customer, we've been able to learn that Alfred Peet, contrary to popular
belief, was a responsible roaster whose coffee was much more popular before
Starbucks bought him out and brought in their dark-roast techniques.  Alfred
Peet was said to have mourned the introduction of heavy dark roasting as the
in-house standard. It's speculated that Starbucks got the tradition of
roasting that dark from the fishermen of the Pacific Northwest fleet, but
they absolutely did not learn it from Alfred Peet.
Doug
On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Ed Needham  wrote:
<Snip>
out
<Snip>
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<Snip>
 +
<Snip>
ow
<Snip>
 for
<Snip>
know
<Snip>
ariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ariascoffee.com
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com
Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820

9) From: Doug Hoople
Poor Alfred Peet. He takes the fall for dark roasting, and it wasn't him.
I was trying to figure out how the myth came about, since it seems so
pervasive, and I think it's pretty simple.
The three co-founders of Starbucks, Jerry Baldwin, Zev Siegel and Gordon
Bowker, were originally inspired by Alfred Peet, and one or more of them may
have even learned roasting directly from him.
It would be an easy leap, then, to assume that they learned everything they
know about coffee from him.
But it turns out that they learned to dark roast after they set up in the
Pacific Northwest, and Poor Mr. Peet not only had nothing to do with it, but
he downright deplored the practice.
Doug
On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Doug Hoople  wrote:
<Snip>
tch
<Snip>
re
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red
<Snip>
the
<Snip>
e:
<Snip>
im
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<Snip>
of
<Snip>
se
<Snip>
IR
<Snip>
mariascoffee.com
<Snip>
mariascoffee.com
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com
Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820

10) From: Eliza Etzion
Hi everyone,
I'm new to this list (and new to home-roasting.) Nice to meet you!
The book Pour Your Heart into It: How Starbucks Built a Company One Cup at a
Time, by Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz describes in detail why and how they
made their coffee choices.
Schultz and his fellow co-founders were in love with espresso and coffee as
it was enjoyed in Italian espresso bars. With Starbucks, they were hoping to
recreate the romance they experienced with Italian coffee bars. The Italians
used a dark roast, and this is why the Starbucks founders believed it was
the best and most authentic.
Would anyone on this list argue that a darker roast is better for espresso
and/or for milk-based coffee drinks? (Starbucks was a major player in
popularizing lattes and other milk-based espresso drinks, so maybe a dark
roast made sense in that context?)
When Starbucks first got started, they were very relatively serious about
coffee quality and authenticity. I'm sure most of us will agree that they
lost something with commercialization. Here a link to the book, for those
interested:http://www.amazon.com/Pour-Your-Heart-Into-Starbucks/dp/0786883561Cheers,
Eliza
On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 6:40 PM, Doug Hoople  wrote:
<Snip>
ey
<Snip>
to
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<Snip>
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way
<Snip>
an
<Snip>
ariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ariascoffee.com
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com
Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820

11) From: Ed Needham
Correction, he was (and is) a world coffee man.  There is no one on the =
planet with a more comprehensive knowledge of the history of coffee than Do=
n =
Schoenholt.  Anyone in the coffee trade will back me up on that.  I've sat =
at his feet and heard more than my mind can fathom about beans, countries, =
farms, trade, roasts, and more.  Alfred Peet and Don Schoenholt were =
friends.  Don was well aware of the roasts coming out of Peets roasters.
There's not a reference anywhere I could find referring to Peet as an =
advocate for light roast.  He was Dutch, and his coffee was a much darker =
roast than America was used to, which was not a burnt roast but a rich, ful=
l =
roast to maximize the caramels, the chocolate undertones and the nuttiness =
of a full roast.  Most coffee Americans were used to was a cinnamon light =
roast, and had little of the deep roasty flavors I personally enjoy.
I'm not guessing at what I'm saying either.  I was there.  I began a =
coffeehouse in 1977, and I was well aware of the trends in coffee at the =
time.  Again, you can research it if you want, but if Don says it, I'm =
taking it to the bank.
You may want to reference this article for a full picture of the coffee =
scene at the time.http://www.hospnews.com/images/Nov07web.pdf*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

12) From: gtsteig
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13) From: Joel Gomberg
On 02/20/2010 04:41 PM, Ed Needham wrote:
<Snip>
I agree.  I started drinking Peet's coffee in the early 1970's.  The Indonesian 
blends like Garuda, and Major Dickason's, were always dark, shiny, and oily. 
Peet's explanation for roasting so dark was that he had to compensate for all 
the milk Americans put into their coffee.  Otherwise, he said, they wouldn't be 
able to taste the coffee at all.
-- 
Joel
Homeroast mailing list
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14) From: John A C Despres
Well, this turn of discussion is exactly why I started this thread. And I
think it proves my point; What do we call our roasts?
<Snip>
considered a huge leap to a dark roast. And for the times Mr. Peet was
roasting, it probably was a huge leap. It appears Alfred Peet simply roasted
darker than what Americans may have been used to, therefore he roasted
*dark* coffee. By today's standards, using Starbuck's dark roast as the
yardstick to compare to another time in history, is revisionist history. So
Mr. Peet didn't roast as dark as Starbucks currently does, but by the
standards of the day, way back then, he was roasting a dark coffee but not
necessarily burnt coffee.
John
On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 8:24 PM, Joel Gomberg  wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
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15) From: Ed Needham
I call a Full City roast one just before any oil specks show up (usually 
caught just as the first few cracks of second start in a drum and before 
second in an air roaster).  A few oil specks is Full City Plus, and anything 
more is irrelevant in my opinion.
John, I think you are right about 'subjective' dark roasts.  A Full City by 
my description above would have been way different than most were used to at 
that time in history.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

16) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
<Snip>
That's an issue among shop roasters and commercial roasters. I 
remember being in a store with Equal Exchange coffee, a bin label 
reading "Full City Roast" and glossy black oily coffee in side with a 
nice thick coating of oil on the lucite itself ... Anyway, we try to 
set a standard but it is hard to do so in either temperatures or 
colors, since those vary by roast system and by coffee type, 
varietal, etc. While it seems a bit sloppy, I think talking about it 
relative to the audible cracks makes sense, but in a way its best to 
combine all the factors to try to fill in the gaps - no one factor 
can really designate degree of roast in and of itself. I have been 
working on printed cards for a long time, but had too much trouble 
getting finished prints that are a decent color match.
-- 
-Tom
"Great coffee comes from little roasters" - Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting
               Thompson & Maria -http://www.sweetmarias.com     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - info_at_sweetmarias.com
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17) From: Doug Hoople
Makes an interesting discussion, Ed.
I actually got in trouble a month ago for repeating exactly the same
information as Don did, namely that the current standard of Starbucks
dark-roasting originated with Alfred Peet.
I don't think that I was suggesting that Alfred Peet was a light-roast
advocate. It could be that he was still roasting darker than the standard
for the country as a whole in the 70s, which was, in fact, a lot lighter
than is commonly found these days (homeroasters excepted).
But I did read here that Alfred Peet was later quoted as saying that the
Starbucks-standard levels of roasting that were brought back into the
Starbucks-operated Peet's were darker than he thought wise, that he lamented
them. That, essentially, his earlier roasts, while not light, were not as
dark as those of his successors.
I'm not a coffee authority. I never knew or even met Alfred Peet. I don't
know Don Schoenholt. I wasn't in Berkeley in the mid-70s. I wasn't in
Seattle during the 70s or 80s.
I do know that a Sulawesi and other Southeast Asian origins respond well to
darker roasting in ways that many other origins don't.
Doug
On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Ed Needham  wrote:
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18) From: sci
There seems to be lots of semantic confusion even among the elite roasters.I
noticed this as soon as I got into roasting. It is kinda like a debate about
when a tomato is ripe.
Sweet Maria's paradigm is best for homeroasters simply because SM is the de
facto standard in the home roasting world. Most of us on this list are not
professional roasters. As for temperatures, we all know how hard it is to
get precise measurements of the actual bean temperature. I take relative
measurements of my machines and use them as guidelines. I have found that
cracks are my best main guide. Since I rarely roast beyond the beginning
stages of 2nd crack, I just wait for 1st crack and then use time, smell,
color, and relative temp. from there. Do I get rigorously consistent roasts?
No.
As a homeroaster I relish and enjoy the slight variations in roasts. I don't
have to have precise consistency between roasts because I don't have
customers who want extreme consistency. Consistency can get boring in things
that are supposed to be fun. Ditto for my espresso shots.
Ivan
-----------------------------
"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do
not have it."
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19) From: John A C Despres
Right on, Ivan. I agree the Sweet Maria's chart is by far the best one out
there. It's confusing at times, though. Another marker I use is when the
beans yellow, which is right about 225-230 degrees. The time at which they
yellow gives me an indication of how fast or slow my roast is progressing.
John
On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 5:36 PM, sci  wrote:
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20) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
Degree of roast is the never ending project. I wanted to take new 
pictures for the chart, now that I have better gear, and some ideas 
to correlate single bean macro images, groups of beans, and ground 
coffee with the SCAA discs. I have an agtron too, an older unit, and 
actually have never fired it up! (Found it used...) But that would be 
great for reference. It's "Project 8342.6" on my list. But an 
important one nonetheless.
Tom
<Snip>
-- 
-Tom
"Great coffee comes from little roasters" - Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting
               Thompson & Maria -http://www.sweetmarias.com     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - info_at_sweetmarias.com
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21) From: John A C Despres
Grammar, ugh... Tom, I didn't mean *your* list is confusing. It's the 'out
there' part that's confusing; other forums, shops... One reason I like you
list is more degrees of roast. Kind of like using grams to measure instead
of ounces.
John
On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 11:19 PM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee <
sweetmarias> wrote:
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22) From: Yakster
Glenn,
Yes, life's too short to drink bad coffee... enjoy and good luck with the
surgeries.
And if you get a chance to post something about your coffee experiences in
Kenya, I'd be interested in hearing them.
-Chris
On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 7:45 AM, glenn rogers  wrote:
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23) From: Jim Gundlach
My feeling is that over roasting is a way to make a greater variety of  =
coffees taste about the same.  In other words, you can sell a lot of  =
cheaper coffees for more if you get people to accept over roasting as  =
good.  Since the great majority of their customers will not try  =
lighter roasts, Starbucks can hold a large market share in the United  =
States without providing their customers the best taste experience  =
from the coffees they sell.  As Sweet Maria's clearly demonstrates,  =
the best coffees available are constantly changing and getting the  =
best out of coffee is an ever changing experience.  And while a few  =
coffees do provide unique and interesting tastes at a darker roast,  =
roasting all your coffees past second crack is throwing away most of  =
the great flavors.
pecan jim
p.s.  I see the Schultz book as more of a marketing tool than a good  =
source of coffee knowledge.
On Feb 20, 2010, at 6:17 PM, Eliza Etzion wrote:
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24) From: Allon Stern
On Feb 22, 2010, at 1:13 PM, Jim Gundlach wrote:
<Snip>
That is assuming that the coffees they sell are any good at lighter roasts.
Roasting dark allows them to sell coffees that would otherwise be unpalatable at lighter roasts; hence maybe they DO provide the best taste experience from the coffees they sell, but not the best taste experience possible.
Or more likely, the best *consistent* taste experience from the coffees they sell.
-
allon
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25) From: Elissa Beth
You're right that the Schultz book was a marketing tool. Perhaps the Italian
influence isn't the real reason Starbucks roasts so dark, especially when it
can help them get away with providing less than incredible coffee.
On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 1:13 PM, Jim Gundlach wrote:
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26) From: Bruce Garley
I still think that offering roasted examples of a couple origins in city to 
full city plus roasts, as a series,  might help establish the standards for 
these roasts.
Bruce Garley
New Port Richey, FL
and
Stillwater, MN
(no longer San Juan Capistrano, CA)

27) From: miKe mcKoffee
Do you mean a "reference set" of roasted beans? While it sounds like a good
idea, a bean can look quite different right out of the roaster versus having
sat days, weeks or months after roasting. And what a bean "looks like" with
a 5 minute roast versus 15 minute may look very much the same color, yet
would be entirely different. Looks is but one clue to a roast. And really
for List purposes I believe Tom has done an excellent job with his Roast
Pictorial providing a very good set of reference points when discussing
roasts.
Or go the route (that has been done twice I know of over the years just on
this List and then they're never used by people discussing roasts anyway) of
making a faux Agron tile set via paint sample cards... 
Slave to the Bean Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.NorwestCoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
<Snip>
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28) From: Ed Needham
Doug, I don't think Starbucks learned their lessons very well from Alfred 
Peet. :)
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

29) From: Ed Needham
Personally, I find espresso to require well roasted coffee to make quality 
espresso.  Roasted too dark and you lose the nutty, chocolaty sweetness I 
love in brewed coffee or espresso.  There may be room for a small amount of 
dark roast in an espresso blend, to add a bit of bite or a dry finish.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"http://www.homeroaster.com*********************

30) From: Bruce Garley
Yes, a reference set. You make good points. Also, different origins are 
going to look totally different at similar roast levels, for example a DP 
Ethiopian vs WP Kenyan. Still I think it would be useful if only to 
underscore reference points.
I thought it was useful when I started roasting for the Lady Silvia. I 
ordered roasted and green samples of SM espresso blends, to see what they 
should finish like. Then adjusted the roasting to match.
Bruce Garley

31) From: Starfinder Stanley
Welcome to the list, Eliza; I think we had a bit of a discussion about
Schultz's involvement a couple months back, you can check the archives if
you're interested.... (I'll just point out that Schultz was not a founder of
SBs, he was first an employee of a company that sold a lot of plastic coffee
filter cones to SBs, then fell in love with Seattle coffee culture on a
visit and spent a year convincing SBs to hire him... Then he fell in love
with italian espresso culture on a visit and decided he had to bring it to
America, but couldn't convince SBs to move from roasting to serving coffee,
so he left SB's and started his own chain of successful espresso bars (Il
Journale or something like that) in Seattle....  Eventually he came back and
bought SBs from the 2 remaining founders, one of whom split off and kept
Peet's, which SBs had recently acquired).  I think one of the strong
mandates of SBs is to provide its customers with a CONSISTENT experience
---it seemed very important to Schultz that a customer could walk into any
SBs anywhere in the world and feel instantly at home in a familiar setting,
and to that end having the coffee taste the same everywhere was a crucial
aspect.  On that kind of scale, that guarantees consistent mediocrity
---there just isn't that much great coffee in the world.  I think the folks
talking about dark roasting being an 'equalizer' of coffee flavors may be on
to something.  I would also posit that once coffees get a little stale, they
also lose a lot of their individual character.
As for dark roasts, I agree with the consensus that there are few varietals
that shine in a dark versus light roast, and many that suffer when
overroasted.  In addition, I find that once the oils are forced to the
surface of the bean as they are in darker roasts, they go rancid quite
quickly, which detracts significantly from the flavor of the resultant
brew.  So dark roasts, when drinkable, are much better drunk promptly!  I
think that the combination of overroasting and rancidity commonly drives
people to add sugar to their coffee to offset the bitterness.  Many people
also seem to associate the "stronger" flavors of dark roasts with "stronger"
coffee, which is ironic as the darker the roast, the less caffeine.  I
always tell people that if they like strong coffee they should use more
grounds and less water, not burn the coffee!
Most people seem to prefer familiarity to novelty, even when the familiarity
is crap and the novelty potentially enriching.  Look at our political system
if you want an example....
...Starfinder
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32) From: Jim Couch
Seems like the Kenyans that I roast, whether I stop at first sounds of 1st
crack, rolling 1st, or untill all 1st crack snaps subside but before 2nd
starts all come out looking the same degree of darkness it's the chaff still
stuck in the middle rift or not and how flat that whole surface is....The
1st iRoast2 I had could make ANYTHING look cinder coal black if I even let
it give out one pop I The replacement iRoast is a great roaster. have been
wondering if the Poofts I have heard in my Behmor were some kind of crack
they come about 1-2 minutes before what is actually 1st crack and there are
only 1 or 2 of them what I am pretty certain is first crack actually sounds
like popcorn popping. After that subsides if I wait usually somewhere from
30seconds to a minute depending on profile I can hear a crinkling sound
which I have been calling second.....
Jim
On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 5:02 PM, John A C Despres wr=
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"Idiots are so much fun! Thats why every village either has one or wants
one!"
G. House MD.
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33) From: Yakster
Jim, I notice same poofts or whooshing noises before first crack in my
Behmor... it's pretty quiet so you probably can't hear it in a loud
roaster.  Your right about the sounds of first and second, popcorn and
crinkling, but I've had some beans second crack sound louder then first and
some beans first crack be pretty quiet (but not whooshing or poofting).
-Chris
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Jim Couch  wrote:
<Snip>
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34) From: David Martin
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 10:01 AM, Starfinder Stanley  wro=
te:
...
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g,
<Snip>
Consistency is of utmost importance for any successful chain. I think
this helps explain *$'s success, as they've been very effective at
maintaining consistency, not just in the roast, but in the brewing
process and ambiance as well.
I used to despise *$, but I don't anymore. I save my contempt for the
many single-location mom&pop shops who can't even figure out how to
brew a decent cup, regardless of the level of roast. Also for small
local roasters who try to match or even exceed *$ / Peet's uber-dark
style, instead of realizing that their smaller scale allows them to
differentiate themselves by roasting each bean according to its
properties. On the other hand, before I started home-roasting, I had
developed the misconception that an oily surface was a natural quality
of really good beans. Even then I was probably way more knowledgeable
than the average consumer; it must be hard to try to please such an
ignorant customer base. :-)
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SM's French Roast blend definitely falls into that category.
Come to think of it, I used to buy from a micro-roaster who had a
decaf blend that stood up to very dark roasting. The beans were like
oily black beetles, and I think this was the reason for my
misconception about oily beans.
-Dave
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35) From: Rich
Those poofs you hear just before 1st crack is a piece of chaff flashing =
off.  If you turn the light off you can see them burn.
Jim Couch wrote:
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36) From: Jim Couch
Oopsey fergot one tiny piece of info...what I was starting to say....was
that Kenyans seem to end up somewhere tween 11-13 on toms pictorial.....
in other words all my Kenyans turn out, colorwise about the same color. So a
city is nearly same color as FC+
Jim
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Rich  wrote:
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"Idiots are so much fun! Thats why every village either has one or wants
one!"
G. House MD.
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37) From: Jim Couch
So glad to find out I wasn't making those sounds up.....after getting used
to hearing cracks in iRoast2 a Behmor makes no noise.....
Jim
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Rich  wrote:
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"Idiots are so much fun! Thats why every village either has one or wants
one!"
G. House MD.
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38) From: Dhananjaya
Eliza,
When I started roasting 6-7 years ago I was a dark roast kind of guy. I do
all my brewing for espresso, 90% of the time with non-fat milk (about 4 oz
for a triple-shot from 24oz of beans) with a bit of Turbinado sugar / no
sugar if straight. Sometime after being inside this list I decided to try
lighter roasts as an experiment. Since then I've been steering clear of 2nd
crack, basically waiting until 1st is done, which I've been classifying as
City Plus; if I hear a second crack snap I classify it as Full City Minus. I
cannot endure dark roasts anymore, as I've become enamored of the origin
flavors that abound in the lighter roast.
Happy roasting,
DJ

39) From: Jim Gundlach
On Feb 23, 2010, at 7:11 PM, Dhananjaya wrote:
<Snip>
Well said DJ.   Well I guess I should say well written DJ.  Your  
experience is so similar to mine and I wish I could have said it so  
well.
       pecan jim
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