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Topic: Finished roast color coding relevance > Is it just (16 msgs / 448 lines)
1) From: miKe mcKoffee
Say a large commercial roaster who has a large wholesale customer who buys a
specific bean/blend roasted to a specific degree of roast over and over
again? They need it to be the same every time. Using the Agtron system can
ensure each batch/shipment is exactly, not almost, not close, not around,
but virtually the exact degree of roast agreed time after time because the
(ground for testing) coffee matches time after time. 
miKe
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2) From: Joseph Robertson
Tom,
What do you mean some validity? miKe just tried to explain to you that in
the commercial coffee world which I realize your not a part of, uses the
Agtron system as the industry standard. It was validated many years ago.
It's just not a tool small roasters like us can or may want to afford. It
might help with clear communication here if  we do a little research out
side of this list so we come here and discuss things on the same page. When
it comes to coffee I want to know and experience as much as possible. That
is one reason I follow this list. I'm sure all of this will be way more
clear than muddy coffee soon.
JoeR
On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Tom Ulmer  wrote:
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3) From: raymanowen
It is not a requirement of this list that each person parrot the politically
correct palaver as stated by anyone else in the whole world. What's the
advantage in that?
The implication of:
"What do you mean some validity?"
miKe just tried to [convince] you that in the commercial coffee world...
Implies the art of roasting goes so far and no further; personal advancement
ceases to exist.
*WHAT* in Blazes does this list have to do with the commercial coffee world?
NOTHING, and miKe, of all people is the antithesis of Big Coffee.
What is it about miKe that makes you think that his hobby or enterprise is
based on the archaic and bearded Agtron tile inadequacies, or any other
facet of the commercial coffee world? Isn't that what primarily drove us all
to roasting and brewing for ourselves?
The Commercial Coffee World- home of Foulgers, and the hazmat blends of *$.
Since FC roasted coffee is not a primary color perceived by the human eye,
it can't be directly quantified. The credulity required to standardize on a
quality rendered differently by the rods and cones in every human retina is
on the same page as "Human hearing is from 20hz - 20Khz "
The Cosar and Macbeth densitometers can resolve Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and
Black colors for critical graphics work, and can be found online for far
less than their original prices. In the 3-D mode, they could read coffee
beans, and 8000K super high intensity LED's could replace the incandescent
light sources.
In the roaster control loop, a cheap densitometer or colorimeter would allow
a roast degree to be set to a specific number.
Cheers and Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
-- 
Persist in old ways; expect different results - suborn Insanity...
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4) From: Yakster
I gave up 20 Khz years ago... I used to be bothered by the 15 KHz
horizontal oscillators driving CRTs, but now I don't hear 'em.
-Chris
On 3/7/10, raymanowen  wrote:
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5) From: John A C Despres
This discussion is just the reason I brought the naming issue up in another
thread a couple weeks ago.
These labels we're discussing seem to be pretty much the only way to
communicate with one another. We could come up with a new labeling system,
but what would it be? And when discussing home roasting with your friend in
New Zealand, how do you describe your roast to her?
We already have a fairly good method of communication that many of us are
able to use; some not, however. I cannot measure bean mass temp, so that
language is foreign.
But - I can tell you when the beans yellowed, when they hit first crack,
when they hit second crack, when the oils gushed forth like a Texas crude
strike and when they burst into flame. When a particular occurrence takes
place, we have a reasonably good idea what the bean temp may be, IE 1st
crack occurs at about 400F. Occurs at about 400F. About... Maybe 390F. Maybe
405F. In a world of absolutes, I wonder if home coffee roasting should
simply be recognized as an exception.
Dark brown, light brown, black, oily, Agtron 72, City +, Taste the coffee,
tell me it's good if you like it.
It is my understanding the big guys cannot match coffee roasts on a day to
day basis so they roast it and stale it for some time, months, I read
somewhere, in order that every can tastes the same... Dunno if it's true,
but it does seem to be a good equalizer. But is Stumptown or Intellagentsia
doing that? No, they're probably using those tools that have been discussed
here. Probably not on every batch and maybe quite seldom. I am sure of this,
though, they taste the coffee and make the final decision from there.
If you told me your roast hit yellow at 2:36 and 1st crack started at 3:49
and you pulled the roast at 5:55, with no adjustments, I'd say, given the
speed, you could be close to 2nd crack at the end of that roast. Let's call
this roast Full City - no hint of second crack.
Based on time information I can make a decent guess. Now let's put the beans
against a color chart or photos and we see it does look to be Full City. Now
let's grind some beans, and lay just a few whole beans on the grind... Hmmm,
really dark beans, rather light grind...Is it still Full City? Is there such
thing as too much information? Too little? Yes, and yes.
Each one of us has more information available than we may realize. Why limit
our discussion to the color of the beans? Add time, add temperature to that
discussion.
Roast the coffee and taste the coffee. That's all that matters. Tell us what
you taste.
And have fun.
John
On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 5:02 AM, Yakster  wrote:
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6) From: Rich
John, some people just like to attempt to reduce an art to a science. 
Roasting an agricultural crop is an art.
John A C Despres wrote:
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7) From: miKe mcKoffee
Virtually all culinary forms are art AND science. Including every facet of
coffee from soil to cup. The greater the understanding of the science the
higher the art can soar. Without one the other suffers, nothing exists in a
vacuum.
Slave to the Bean Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.NorwestCoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archiveshttp://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
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8) From: Ryan M. Ward
"John, some people just like to attempt to reduce an art to a science. Roasting an agricultural crop is an art."
Respectfully, I could turn your statement around and have it be just as valid. Some people like to attempt to reduce a science to an art.
The coffee roasting process, fundamentally, is a product of the laws of Physics and Chemistry. Certain parameters are fed into some mathematical function and a certain end result is spit out. Now what makes this issue hard is that the number of parameters is extremely large and overwhelming. These parameters not only include ambient temperature, internal temperature fluctuations within the roaster, humidity, time roasting, etc... They also include properties intrinsic to the bean itself: mass, volume, surface area, internal pH of the bean, caffine content, structural integrity of the bean mass, etc... (Have I missed anything?) 
Taking an artistic approach to roasting, you cannot escape the basic science involved here. You still have a target roasting profile in mind, and end goal so to speak. You still have an approximate sense of what parameters are involved in getting you there. This is all very scientific to me, even though there is a strong artistic element involved. 
Now, what is a good cup of coffee? What is the ideal roast? Science cannot answer that, this is the art. But roasting is just as much science as art of not more, I do propose. IMHAPO
-- 
Ryan M. Ward
*Note: This email was sent from a computer running Ubuntu Linux 9.10 (Karmic Koala)http://www.ubuntu.com**Note: This signature was placed here by me and is not automatically-generated-annoying-end-of-email-spam placed here by anyone other than myself. I am a Linux nut and am doing my part to support open source software and the Linux and Ubuntu communities by getting the word out with each email I send, I encourage you to do the same.
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9) From: John A C Despres
I suppose we could mix it up in any direction we like. Art to science,
science to art.
I'm a sculptor, building mobiles tiny to 40 feet across. I'm not a
physicist, but I use practical physics while balancing a particular piece
and I also use the math necessary to complete a sculpture. I am not a
physicist making sculpture. I am a sculptor using a very limited amount of
science to help me along. The end result? Art. (Good or bad, you decide...)
Our paths to a good cup of coffee can be similar or not, but in discussing
the finished roast, how do we go about it using a language we all
understand?
Just out of curiosity, does anyone on this list besides possibly Thom own an
Agtron system? If not, why are *we* even discussing it here except as a
curiosity?
John
On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 11:05 AM, miKe mcKoffee  wrote:
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10) From: Joseph Robertson
Sorry about all the perceived implications RayO. What's it take to wake the
sleeping bear RayO?
Now I know. Good to hear from you even if it's a good ole' RayO literary
homeroast spanking.
Very sorry to offend anyone here or raise a flame flag. Seriously not my
intentions.
Ray, I agree this list has nothing to do with the commercial coffee world
and we both know miKe quite well. The "Commercial Coffee World" is no where
so start the journey that we are all on but coffee wisdom lies in many dark
corners of our coffee past.
I hope if I find a really good deal on an Agtron you don't give me a nic
name of boyd. I'm just a little science guy who can't help himself. I want
to know what I'm not supposed to know and taste everyone's coffee no matter
what they roast the beans with.
Ok, back to lurkdom I slip, have a great cup of your homeroast  today.
JoeR
On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 12:53 AM,  wrote:
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11) From: Joseph Robertson
Tom,
Very sorry for as rayO puts it "the implication of" my statement.
I did not mean to offend you or raise a flame flag here.
I also do not know the definition of your comment "accept the status quo
without question" I thought this list was all about questions and comments.
I really did not mean to offend you or anyone and for this I do apologize
and accept any and all comments in this regard. In the future I will choose
my comments with more care. I confess though I may have a problem accepting
the status quo without question.
Roast on and enjoy the very best coffee possible.
JoeR
On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 6:29 AM, Tom Ulmer  wrote:
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12) From: Yakster
Not so sure I'd make so strong a case, especially on occasion when I
roast over open fire.
Pre-roasted and ground coffee is still a relatively new thing, and
geared more toward convenience and profit then taste.
You've got to pick and choose what you take, it's not all an improvement.
-Chris
On 3/7/10, Ryan M. Ward  wrote:
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13) From: g paris
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John:
I do and frankly my beans have never matched their "menu." JoeR wanna buy
it? Like new
and I will still call you Joe!~!
thegster
This is a great discussion that I wish I had more time for right now.
Honestly you cannot compare commercial roasting for the masses or mini
masses with homeroasting coffee lovers as far as I am concerned.
Mike has that super niche in the middle of this world of coffee.
He has a coffee cafe and he actually roasts his own coffee. Yes, there are
many
around the country like Mike. These folks (read owner/roasters of cafes) are
the
gold in the hills between the home roaster and commercial garbage.
I had a pub and cafe (read beer and wine only) and I did not have to roast
coffee and
still worked 18 hours a day!
There is a new place in they tiny township where I live that is called
"HeBrews" Fresh Roasted Coffee and Cafe.
He does not roast his coffee. He buys his coffee and it is "shipped the same
day or the next
that it is roasted." Right. As far as I am concerned it is still commercial
coffee. The roaster
is in Phoenix and produces fresh roasted for tons-o-towns in Arizona.
I had an espresso, they ground the beans, had excellent equipment and the
espresso
still tasted burnt and horrid.
Hey folks I am a homeroaster what can I say.
FRESH COFFEE is just that, fresh. Not roasted 4/5 weeks ago or 6/8 months
ago.
Thank god I can buy in small batches so I can have that advantage of tasting
"the best coffees in the world!"
Every cup can be an adventure!!!
ginnyhttp://homeroasters.org/php/news.phpOn Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 2:04 PM, Yakster  wrote:
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14) From: Joseph Robertson
You had to have read the entire thread gin.
Bullseye, to us coffee roasters. it's always curiosity.
JR
On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 3:00 PM, g paris  wrote:
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15) From: Frank Parth
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My viewpoint (originally expressed by someone else on this list) is that the first 12 minutes is science, the 
remainingminutes are art.
Frank Parth
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16) From: raymanowen
As Dad said, "Ray, why do you always have to learn things the hard way?"
I just did it again. Thought I'd try some Boyers commercial coffee product
again, just to reaffirm the light at the end of the tunnel is getting
brighter, not just an approaching diesel locomotive.
Their so-called Bolder Boulder blend, not their purpose roasted espresso
blend, looked and smelled like the best candidate for espresso. "This was
being roasted and blended yesterday- It's fresh, but you won't like it as
espresso."
Rong- ground at 21, (0.0128") there was no end of crema. Sunday evening, I
had been playing with some pour-overs and really botched the setting for a
wonderful, relaxing shot of Boyers non-espresso. Karen's suggestion- "Heat
Soy milk over sugar, and brew a shot into that for me" got a " the straight
shots are good enough but this has complexity that was missing."
I managed to set the grinder to 18 (0.0110") for my shot. My honey liked the
heated Soy milk and sugar, so, why not...
30 seconds later, the shot was barely moving. Some kind of double ristretto
over a shot of heated Soy milk and organic cane sugar. Wading through a
field of Bailey's Irish Cream tastes just like this- Wow!
No Bailey's Irish Cream among the participants of the Bolder Boulder
marathon, but they could get their kicks on Three-Six with this brew! Also,
no part of the marathon is run on US 36, the Denver- Boulder turnpike, and
there are no longer any turnpike gates on the turnpike, but the rhyme needed
it...
Good misteaks are hard to find.
Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
Got Grinder?
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