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Topic: hazmat blends of *$ (13 msgs / 376 lines)
1) From: sci
RayO:
"...hazmat blends of *$"
Ok, I say RayO gets the daily Pulitzer for that one. I hope you don't mind
me repeating that elsewhere.
When is an egg over-easy, over-medium, or over-hard? I guess I need to get
an Agtron in my kitchen to know when all my foods are cooked the same.
IMHO, Extreme repeatability in any food processing, whether coffee,
restaurant recipes, or whatever, is a commercially driven desire. I have to
agree with the the view that homeroasting is a corrective to this drive.
Call it the McDonaldization of culture, but I'm sick and tired of extreme
repeatability because it creates a monotonous culture. Sure, we expect it
for Henry Ford kinds of production where it is essential.
Ivan
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2) From: Bob Hazen
In my earlier, more obsessive days I had a grinder and beans etc. at my 
desk.  Drove a number of people nuts with the aroma.  "Somebody" put an MSDS 
sticker on my coffee mug.  ;-)
Bob
<Snip>
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3) From: Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee
When traveling I will try an airport Starbucks if they are brewing 
something OTHER than one of their blends. But why anyone would want 
the stale old dark roast blends they offer ... and not only that but 
get a 20 oz cup of it is beyond me. Frankly, if there was only that 
available, I would quit coffee. I find any of their blends to be a 
deeply depressing beverage ... I am not kidding or exaggerating. I 
have had acceptable cups of Sidamo DP, Colombia Narino and Brazil 
there, acceptable for travel coffee. On the retail side, they are 
destructive. On the buying side, there was a time when they did quite 
a bit for farmers, and paid well. But right now they are dropping 
their volumes in many expensive origins and buying serious amounts of 
Brazil coffee. That is completely new. They used to offer a  Brazil 
every so often, now they are buying cheap Brazils based on price. So 
my former regard for them, earned during the coffee crisis when the C 
market dipped very low, but they kept buying Centrals at good prices, 
well, that Starbucks doesnt exist any more it seems
-- 
-Tom
"Great coffee comes from little roasters" - Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting
               Thompson & Maria -http://www.sweetmarias.com     Sweet Maria's Coffee - 1115 21st Street, Oakland, CA 94607 - USA
             phone/fax: 888 876 5917 - info_at_sweetmarias.com
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4) From: Joseph Robertson
Tom,
Thanks for the insiders news clip on the buying habits of *$'s. I always
wondered if they just bought whole farms to control the green bean market as
much as possible.
JoeR
On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Tom & Maria - Sweet Maria's Coffee <
sweetmarias> wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
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5) From: sci
 Ryan,
I don't deny the need for extreme repeatability for certain ventures. But
such high tolerances for the homeroaster isn't helpful. I don't use NASA
standards for maintaining my car.  Look at another food analogy: steaks. I
like mine medium. And there's a range of acceptable levels of cooking that
qualify as medium. Go to a fine steak house and order a Filet and let me
order a rib-eye, both medium. Your filet will look like it is medium rare
compared to my rib-eye. Coffee is quite similar. FC is well after first
crack, but well before second crack. But I have roasted many coffees (a
Koratie DP comes to mind) that look like (quite dark) they are FC+ when
first crack ends. Go figure. So what was it? It had the dark color of FC+
but the first crack just ended and the EOR temp was consistent with my other
C+ roasts. How's an agtron scale going to help there? Reminds me of cooking
a filet. For me saying FC (or any roast name) is like saying "medium" on a
steak order. It can have an acceptable range. If I had a commercial roasting
setup, I'd have to be concerned with high repeatability.
FWIW,
Ivan
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6) From: Joseph Robertson
Sci,
Were only curious what's out there, nobody is talking about using an Agtron
for home roasting.
Were talking about what it is for in the first place. No rocket science
needed here.
That said, If I bought the best beans I could afford I would like to be able
to repeat my roasts as close as possible.
Hey Sci, all this science aside, it's all in the cup. Do you or do you not
like the taste of what you just roasted?
If you do that is all this forum is for. If you don't ditto.
JoeR
On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 11:54 PM, sci  wrote:
<Snip>
-- 
Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.
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7) From: Rich
If you collect times from start to first crack for the same batch of 
beans and are using the same weight in each batch you will find a 
variation that time over a 20lb bag of beans.  This is also while 
maintaining all of the other variables constant.  Roaster supply 
voltage, bean start temperature etc.
Joseph Robertson wrote:
<Snip>
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8) From: Ryan M. Ward
Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to suggest that we should all got out and =
buy Agtron systems- that would be sort of silly. =
I think that I should back up a bit and explain why I became interested in =
this topic in the first place, that may clarify where I am coming from.
Personally, I am a Mathematician(Well, technically a Mathematics graduate s=
tudent), which means that I am very focused on Logic and definitions. This =
is just how my life runs. In Mathematics, we have to take some abstract con=
cepts and define them very clearly in a way that one can perform logical ar=
guments on. Sometimes things that seem very obvious or intuitive are actual=
ly the hardest to define. =
Example (I am starting to get a little OT, I promise I will come back soon =
and make my point clear):
Consider a collection of objects which has nothing in it. This, in set theo=
ry, is called an empty set(pretty descriptive name huh?). Well, the descrip=
tion above is not a very workable definition mathematically. It's hard to d=
o math on it even though its point is rather clear, so we use a better defi=
nition:
Definition: The empty set is the set of all elements which are not equal to=
 themselves. =
This definition is very strange but surprisingly is very workable. =
Now, back to coffee. My interest in this topic arose out of the motivation =
I have outlined above. Has the industry established a formal definition, ba=
sed in rigour and physical properties, for different roasting profiles. If =
such a definition exists, I am sure there are implications that trickle dow=
n to the home roaster but my original inquiry was simply whether such a def=
inition exists. Mike then established that the industry uses color and a sp=
ectrometer to establish uniformity in roasting profiles. I assume that temp=
erature is also controlled in this process. To summarize, I was simply aski=
ng if such a thing exists. I think we can all agree that if you throw some =
beans into a Behmor and roast for 2 seconds you certainly do not have a Ful=
l City roast, right? Well, this leads me to suspect that some kind of defin=
ition exists- even if a loose one. =
Now, regarding eggs and steak the same, equally valid question can be appli=
ed: Does an industry standard definition exist which clearly defines what a=
n over easy egg is, or a medum rare steak is? I have no idea, when I am eat=
ing an egg am I focused on this question? No, of course not, I am eating an=
 egg. Now, if I were to open up a high end French restaurant which caters t=
o the egg connoisseurs, would I care then? Of course, I would be researchin=
g it like crazy, and then once I had mastered the ability to created the eg=
g of definition, I would butcher the recipe and add my own personal signatu=
re to it. If I was feeding egg snobs, I would hate to listen to them compla=
in about how the eggs florentine dish that I fed them wasn't even really eg=
gs florentine because I forgot X, Y and Z. I probably would not care so muc=
h if I was having friends over though.
Now, one last thought and then I will quit. I never meant to personally est=
ablish what that definition is. A formal definition can be sufficiently loo=
se to allow for a wide range of variation. I could see a definition for an =
over easy egg as being an egg fried on both sides. The reason I question a =
color based definition with coffee roasting is that the surface can brown a=
t a different rate than the center based on ambient temperature. This is wh=
y I feel that any definition based on color needs to at least account for t=
emperature controls. In short, such a formal definition does not have anyth=
ing to do with extreme repeatability, other than the fact that such a defin=
ition would allow "extreme repeatability" to occur should one choose. =
-- =
Ryan M. Ward
*Note: This email was sent from a computer running Ubuntu Linux 9.10 (Karmi=
c Koala)http://www.ubuntu.com**Note: This signature was placed here by me and is not automatically-gener=
ated-annoying-end-of-email-spam placed here by anyone other than myself. I =
am a Linux nut and am doing my part to support open source software and the=
 Linux and Ubuntu communities by getting the word out with each email I sen=
d, I encourage you to do the same.
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her
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ariascoffee.com
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ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
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9) From: Rich
The reason that all of the detailed data collection and mathematical 
analysis fails in producing a repeatable roast or cup is that coffee is 
an agricultural crop and there is no way to quantify the bean variables, 
or even identify all of them.  You roast a bit by inspection and grind 
it and cup it, adjust for effect.  Then when you change batches of beans 
you repeat the process, even if th new batch of beans is from the same 
region and crop.
Ryan M. Ward wrote:
<Snip>
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10) From: David Martin
Depending on the roasting method used, it may be even harder to
determine/define variables. For example, I'm still using a hand-held
heat gun. I like roasting this way, but there's no way I can ever
produce the same roast profile twice, using this technique. So, I
simply don't worry about it. I rely mainly on sound and smell, along
with my recollection of how I previously roasted that variety and how
it came out. I buy 5lb bags and roast 10oz at a time, and usually by
the third batch I've got a pretty good idea of how to make the beans
taste good. Also, by the way, after 4 years of home roasting I'm still
not entirely sure where C+ ends and FC begins; this used to bug me but
at some point I decided not to worry about it.
I have a lot of respect for those who take a more analytical approach,
keep records, etc. At some point I might evolve towards doing that as
well, and I'm sure it'll improve the quality of my roasts, but at this
point I'm perfectly happy with my current intuitive approach.
-Dave
On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Rich  wrote:
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and
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epeat
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op.
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...
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11) From: Ryan M. Ward
I agree with you, but not all variables contribute to the flavor profile equally. If you control the ones that contribute most (such as time roasting and temperature, speaking about the roasting process specifically), then you can create a defined roast which is meaningful in a practical way.  
-- 
Ryan M. Ward
*Note: This email was sent from a computer running Ubuntu Linux 9.10 (Karmic Koala)http://www.ubuntu.com**Note: This signature was placed here by me and is not automatically-generated-annoying-end-of-email-spam placed here by anyone other than myself. I am a Linux nut and am doing my part to support open source software and the Linux and Ubuntu communities by getting the word out with each email I send, I encourage you to do the same.
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12) From: miKe mcKoffee
(re-send non-arrival from 2 hours ago....)
<Snip>
To an extent agree but to a much larger extent you'd surprised how wrong you
are. There are some very very sophisticated roast monitoring and control
systems in use out there. Light years beyond the whimpy by comparison $5k
control system on my little roaster.
You roast a bit by inspection 
<Snip>
Yup, even with the most sophisticated equipment you still adjust according
to taste, bean condition etc. Last batch of Delirium tweaked one of the 5
profiles 2 degrees lower EOR, another 30sec quicker SOF to EOR keeping same
finish degree. The more sophiticated the system the easier and quicker it is
to dial in a desired end result change. That's using SCIENCE to implement
(not replace) the ART.
And yes this applies to home roasting. I used the same principles profile
roasting with my Frankenformer dual variable boosted voltage controlled
Caffe' Rosto from many years, likewise Mike (just plain) PID'd Ubber Popper,
Jim Schulman PID'd FR, I forget who (sorry) PID'd controlled HotTop, my and
Mike Chester's Jeffrey Pawlin designed Computer Controlled HotTop and the
list goes on and on of serious profile controlled home roasting.
Slave to the Bean Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffeehttp://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must">http://www.NorwestCoffee.comURL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:http://www.mckoffee.com/Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal enlightenment
found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone before.
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13) From: Rich
Those are obviously the major variables but not the only ones by any 
stretch.  Delta temperature/delta time is the big one for sure, but not 
the only one.  As you can not monitor centerline temperature of the 
individual beans you really only find the heat rate for a given batch by 
experimentation.  Experience will get you close but it will only be close.
Ryan M. Ward wrote:
<Snip>
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