HomeRoast Digest


Topic: Hybrid vac pots--blowing off steam (7 msgs / 313 lines)
1) From: Samuel Goldberger
Ray's expostulations are always cryptic, sometimes witty, but usually corre=
ct in the main. This time, however, =
some comments seem needed. =
On Apr 4, 2010, at 3:19 PM, raymanowen wrote:
<Snip>
/flame on
As always, Ray, quite witty. Presumably, however, you meant Folgers, or mor=
e precisely ground coffee. =
However, this statement is very misleading. Vacuum brewers are designed to =
allow the expanding water
 to *rise up* the stem into the funnel. There is no "drawing" except when t=
he bottom cools down and the =
brewed coffee is *drawn* by the vacuum that results. =
If you are trying to clarify a technical point, it helps to be somewhat acc=
urate in your language. Otherwise, you appear =
to be whistling up the windpipe, or should I say "drawing up the windpipe?"=
	Surely you wouldn't want that. =
<Snip>
No, it doesn't *have* to (see below), though every vacuum pot I have used (=
some 10-12) does allow some water to remain in the bottom.
That's because if the stem reached the bottom of the lower vessel, the wate=
r wouldn't rise all the way up to the funnel. However, =
the stem could be quite short, and the water would stlll rise through it be=
cause it has to go somewhere when heating to boiling.
<Snip>
<Snip>
Actually, the amount of water that rises up the stem is not so much depende=
nt upon the depth or the length of the stem as it is by the length of time =
the heat is applied =
to the bottom vessel. =
<Snip>
ler
<Snip>
That supposes that the heat is left on during brewing. But that would make =
for very lousy coffee; and the water would never descend. =
In fact, this descent comes about precisely because the lower vessel begins=
 to cool, which in turn requires that the heat be removed.
This is generally after 2-3 minutes or more of cooling. The cooling creates=
 a vacuum (hence the name). =
By that time, even an overheated glass vessel would generally have cooled s=
ufficiently to withstand the descending coffee. =
You wouldn't by any chance be resolving a non-existent problem, would you?
<Snip>
<Snip>
sh-
<Snip>
Who exactly are those imagining this, Ray? Are they friends of yours? Or is=
 this a further straw-man argument?
It's extremely hard to get even an old glass vacuum pot to shatter. I have =
some dating back to the 30's and '40's
made of early versions of Pyrex. They are very heat resistant, and have bee=
n in service for over 60 years. =
In the unlikely event that a pot does shatter, it's most likely because the=
 glass had a stress fracture, not from heat but from impact. =
<Snip>
My, how we love our abbreviations. But whatever a GI party is, the issue ha=
s little or nothing to do with exactness of =
components (though if you don't get a good seal you won't get a vacuum, and=
 hence no coffee), and everything to do
with the application of heat. It is very hard to draw correct conclusions f=
rom false assumptions. =
<Snip>
<Snip>
I am sure you know precisely what this means, and it's extremely amusing, a=
nd ultra macho to boot.
It sure puts us wimpy non-smoking non-vet home roasters to shame.
Thank you for the self-revelation and military reminiscence. It contributes=
 enormously to our =
understanding, and you do appear to be a lovable old curmudgeon, even if yo=
u don't understand =
vacuum pots. But you certainly are an expert roaster, or so you always tell=
 us, and your wife
agrees. Who then could disagree, much less challenge you? =
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
Sounds both wise and witty. However, by persisting in old ways, one often i=
mproves one's skill set, and thus obtains new results.
Or, situations change in such a manner that the old ways do in fact produce=
 new results, as is the case with home roasting. =
Even bad habits are not in themselves insanity. They are bad habits. =
/flame off
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com
Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820

2) From: Rich
Actually, if you want to pick nits, the water is delivered into the =
upper bowl by the higher vapor pressure in the lower chamber and the new =
coffee in the upper chamber is returned to the cooling lower chamber by =
atmospheric pressure.  The pot functions by the miracle of differential =
pressure.
Samuel Goldberger wrote:
<Snip>
rect in the main. This time, however, =
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
ore precisely ground coffee. =
<Snip>
o allow the expanding water
<Snip>
 the bottom cools down and the =
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
ccurate in your language. Otherwise, you appear =
<Snip>
?"	Surely you wouldn't want that. =
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
 (some 10-12) does allow some water to remain in the bottom.
<Snip>
ter wouldn't rise all the way up to the funnel. However, =
<Snip>
because it has to go somewhere when heating to boiling.
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
dent upon the depth or the length of the stem as it is by the length of tim=
e the heat is applied =
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
oler
<Snip>
<Snip>
e for very lousy coffee; and the water would never descend. =
<Snip>
<Snip>
ns to cool, which in turn requires that the heat be removed.
<Snip>
es a vacuum (hence the name). =
<Snip>
<Snip>
 sufficiently to withstand the descending coffee. =
<Snip>
<Snip>
ash-
<Snip>
<Snip>
is this a further straw-man argument?
<Snip>
<Snip>
e some dating back to the 30's and '40's
<Snip>
een in service for over 60 years. =
<Snip>
he glass had a stress fracture, not from heat but from impact. =
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
has little or nothing to do with exactness of =
<Snip>
nd hence no coffee), and everything to do
<Snip>
 from false assumptions. =
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
 and ultra macho to boot.
<Snip>
<Snip>
es enormously to our =
<Snip>
you don't understand =
<Snip>
ll us, and your wife
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
 improves one's skill set, and thus obtains new results.
<Snip>
ce new results, as is the case with home roasting. =
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
<Snip>
ariascoffee.com
<Snip>
ee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820
<Snip>
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com
Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820

3) From: Allon Stern
On Apr 5, 2010, at 4:28 AM, Samuel Goldberger wrote:
<Snip>
How about we use the flames for our gas-fired roasters? Calling a straw-man argument is valid, but the ad-hominem attacks are a bit out of bounds.
-
allon
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

4) From: Samuel Goldberger
On Apr 5, 2010, at 7:51 AM, Allon Stern wrote:
<Snip>
Normally, I would agree. However, Ray typically interweaves the spuriously (one might even say embarrassingly) personal with 
the objective in ways that make it difficult, if not impossible, for the reader to distinguish. That was precisely my point. 
Ad hominem arguments are indeed out of bounds where the speaker has not made his personality the issue, as is eminently true of your note. Hence, one can reply to 
the substance without any reference to you as a "hominus."
Res ipsa loquitur.
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

5) From: Tom Ulmer
The dissemination of error is folly in my opinion as well; however, it does
seem to me you are the one calling personality into issue - particularly
yours.

6) From: Kris McN
Careful, Samuel.  We're very protective of our crusty old dudes on this
list, curmudgeonly and otherwise.  Ray-O's posts, while often cryptic to the
point of nonsensical, sometimes have the added benefit of launching a thread
wherein his "mistakes" are corrected and many of us learn a little
something.  Much like this one, but with less snark.
Best,
Kris McN
On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Samuel Goldberger  wrote:
<Snip>
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20">http://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmariascoffee.comHomeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemIdx20

7) From: Andy Thomas
From: Samuel Goldberger 
 
<Snip>
Actually, the amount of water that rises up the stem is not so much depende=
nt upon the depth or the length of the stem as it is by the length of time =
the heat is applied to the bottom vessel. =
The amount of water that rises up has everything to do with the length of t=
he tube. Once the level reaches the bottom of the tube, no more water can r=
ise, regardless of the vigor of the boil.
<Snip>
ler
<Snip>
That supposes that the heat is left on during brewing. But that would make =
for very lousy coffee; and the water would never descend. =
I leave heat under the brewer for about 1 minute after the ascent of the wa=
ter to the funnel, then remove from heat . I believe this is common practic=
e. It does not make for lousy coffee.
In fact, this descent comes about precisely because the lower vessel begins=
 to cool, which in turn requires that the heat be removed.
This is generally after 2-3 minutes or more of cooling. The cooling creates=
 a vacuum (hence the name). =
By that time, even an overheated glass vessel would generally have cooled s=
ufficiently to withstand the descending coffee. =
Perhaps, but I wouldn't want to take that chance.
[snip]
On Apr 4, 2010, at 3:19 PM, raymanowen wrote:
[snip]
      =
Homeroast mailing list
Homeroasthttp://host.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar=iascoffee.com
Homeroast community pictures -upload yours!) :http://www.sweetmariascoffee=.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7820


HomeRoast Digest